At 02:32 PM 3/15/02, you wrote:

The Mustange Command at about $500 can be worn and worked in. I bought ONE
for just that purpose and so that there would be at least one individual
who could help the rest into the suits.

Capt. Mike Maurice
Near Portland Oregon.

Ross Fleming replied:

REPLY

As someone who has spent hours in a Mustang  suit I can attest to the fact
you don't die from heat prostration.
With these suits it is feasible to work with the zipper opened partially in front
to provide some ventilation.
Jim seems to  think of it in terms of down his part of the world.  Been there
tried that.  Believe me when you do get a bit further north it gets chilly right
quick.

Up here in Canuck country we also use the Full Mustang suits for
snowmobiling on thin ice in the winter. Does wonders for survival  in the event
of breaking through the ice and landing in 32F  water.
Mind you I prefer to use mine during  the summer months when the air temp
is 90F but the water is still around 50F

Cheers

Arild

No Sale.  It is still welded nylon with neoprene insulation.  It does have
removable gloves so you can do tasks requiring dexterity.  However working
hard you would be dead of heat prostration in an hour if you wore the thing
that long without being in the water.  Better but not nearly good enough.

Now for $1300 I have a deal for you....

Jim

At 08:46 PM 3/15/02, you wrote:

I have had the Mustang Commander in mind for a water rescue, if it ever
came to that.
Much safer than just diving in.

Capt. Mike Maurice
Near Portland Oregon.

On Fri, 15 Mar 2002 17:28:52 -0800, "Jim Donohue"
jim_donohue@computer.org wrote:

    Actually I spend hours on end sailing in drysuits on a regular

basis.  I can assure you that I am quite alive and have never suffered
from fatal heat prostration.  They are always slightly damp from
perspiration and I do lust after a GoreTex version which can be
obtained for about $600.  I can't imagine that the Mustang Commander
would be any worse than the non GoreTex drysuits that I wear except
that it is bulkier.  I believe that Mike has identified a very valid
use for the Mustang Commander suit.
Even though I sail in protected waters of Puget Sound I am
actively looking for an immersion suit.  One would be quite useful if
I ever had to deploy a rescue swimmer to help retrieve people out of
the water.  I also single hand my boat on a regular basis.  There
some casualties that I could suffer single handed that could result in
me loosing boat without crew to help with damage control.

Ross Fleming        ross@renoun.net
S/V Renown          Gulfstar 39
Seattle, Washington  http://renoun.net

I have only had a couple of dry suit experiences but I have spent lots of
time in wet suits.  Given that the mustang is a waterproof wet suit I know I
would not survive very long in one unless I stripped to the waist as I
almost always do in a wet suit when it is above 50F.  I would also note that
having spent a lot of times in diving areas the divemasters in their neat
dry suits never lecture suited up...even when the air temperature is cool.
I will hold to my original position...these simply are not garments that one
wears for long periods of time out of the water.

If you want to drop a rescue swimmer then a dry suit is really appropriate.
Did you note that the size range on a commander is 4'7" to 6'7"?  If you are
to the lower end of the scale what do you do with the rest of the suit while
swimming?  Nahh.  A bad idea...Either a well fitted wet suit or dry suit for
a rescue swimmer...not one of these dudes.  I would point out that with a
few thousand hours in the water I would much rather rescue somebody in
swimming trunks.  All these other things are restrictive and make the task
harder.  The mustangs are for survival...not for working including rescue.

Jim

Jim,

Most of your posts on this subject have been what can only be termed as
"guessing" about how survival suits work. To try to draw comparisons between
your experience in wet suits (suits that are used for swimming and diving)
with Mustang type work suits or with true exposure suites (i.e. Gumby
suites) has no validity.

To get some real life data, take a look at the US Coast Guard's actual
experience. In determining how small boat crews deploy, they look at the air
and water temperature, and based on that make decisions on what hypothermia
protective clothing is required. If the water temperature is above 60F, they
allow CG small boat crews to get underway without suits. If the water
temperature is below 60F, then they require the crews to wear Mustang type
work suits (or as they officially call them "antiexposure coveralls Type V
PFD"). If the water temperature is below 50F and the air temperature is
below 45F, then they require the crew to wear dry suits for protection.
Please note, wet suits do not fit anywhere in these rules and have nothing
to do with the subject at hand - i.e. survival suits. The CG expressly
forbids wet suit use by boat crews, and allows them only for surface
swimmers. Also note that the true survival suits (ie. Gumby suits) are not
authorized for work use, only for abandon ship use due to their severe
limiting of mobility.

When the CG boat crews go out in these suits, they are out for hours at a
time. The CG has been doing this for years with no problem, and the suits
have saved many coasties you have ended up in the water due to cold water
mishaps.

It would appear you are holding forth a position based on a anti-suit bias
that is not supported by actual industry and government experience. The
fishermen who had initially fought the requirements to carry the suits are
now strong believers base on experience. The Coast Guard learned the hard
way that if they wanted to keep crews alive in cold water operations, the
suits were a must.

As Rich Gano pointed out, if you are down in Florida, you probably have a
far greater need for an adequate supply of a properly chilled libation. If
on the other hand you are sailing in the higher latitudes of the US coast
during colder weather, survival suits are the only thing that will keep you
alive if you have to end up in the water. Remember that on the Titanic,
while most of the victims got off the ship safely into the water with life
jackets on (hey, there weren't even called 'PFDs' back then!), they quickly
became victims due to the cold water.

Cheers,
Kevin
www.BoatMoves.com

I am not "guessing" I simply note that there is no data showing that they
work in an environment like recreational boating.  You should read the
thread again.

I have lots of wet suit experience, a limited amount of dry suit
experience, some limited "gumby" experience (I was the MOB in a MOB
demonstration) and I have explored the range of Mustang and similar product
including the work style mustangs.  I would also point out that the
scandanavian goretex suits are probably the best thing around for this
service but are pricey.

Sure there are dry suits and mustangs you can work in.  You can work in them
but often they have to be opened up to be livable unless the actual
environment is pretty cool.  But those are not the suits one carries for
survival on a fisherman or a recreational boat.

The impact of the requirement for survival suits on fisherman does NOT show
any large improvement in the fatality rate. And that is according to the CG.
While there is an improvement in fatalities it is not large and may well
represent change in the number of vessel days.

The hard part of all these discussions is that there is no data supporting
their usefulness.  The CG likes them, the fisherman like them and Kevin
likes them.  That is not data.

The procedures appropriate to the CG do not necessarily extend to rec.
boaters.  There are huge matters of conditioning, training, skill level and
the nature of the mission.

I do not have a "bias" against survival suits, nor against life rafts.  I do
not however believe that they are the first, second or even third layer of
safety equipment for recreational boaters.  Sure they will save lifes - but
very few and not very often.  If you have the funds available, sure carry
them...but certainly after a good inflatable, the second radar, the second
epirb, personal locaters on the PFDS, the waterproof VHF, the heavy flow
bilge pump, etc.  Make the boat as safe as it can be then these limited use
safety gizmos.

Note these things kill a few people every so often as well.  There are a
number of anecdotes of people abandoning perfectly seaworthy boats to die in
life rafts.

And yes Arild I do boat in the warm places..like the Straits of Georgia,
Seattle, and the open Pacific...and we all know how warm that tropical
climate is compared to the cold north.

Jim