DC distribution
Hi
On the typical West Mountain setup, the cable that goes from the power supply into
the device tends to stay in place a long time. The other stuff gets moved around
allot. Indeed my preference is for the “newer” designs that don’t bring power in on
a Power Pole.
Bob
On Oct 5, 2019, at 8:11 PM, Jeremy Nichols jn6wfo@gmail.com wrote:
For a connection that remains undisturbed for 20 to 30 years, could you get
by with no connector at all?
On Sat, Oct 5, 2019 at 6:03 PM Bob kb8tq kb8tq@n1k.org wrote:
Hi
The biggest “issue” I’ve seen with Power Poles is that after being mated
for 20 to 30
years they start to loose the spring force that holds them together.
Bob
On Oct 5, 2019, at 11:45 AM, John Ackermann N8UR jra@febo.com wrote:
One thing the PowerPole tool does is provide a little cavity for the
blade to go, so it keeps the depth of the crimp and also the angle where
they should be.
On 10/5/19 7:24 AM, Adrian Godwin wrote:
I used powerpoles on a project and tried to use a crimping tool I had to
hand. Amphenol, I think. It appeared to be the right size but ended up
bending the terminal badly where it changes from circular to flat. The
results were unreliable and I ended up soldering (though adding
sleeving,
which together with the natural bend-restriction on the shell has mostly
avoided stiffening the wire where it's most vulnerable).
I know some crimp terminal are very fussy about the tool used but it's
usually the miniature ones like JST. Does the powerpole terminal need a
powerpole-specific crimp tool ? I note that the West Mountain tool
seems to
be branded by themselves rather than Anderson, but I can't tell if it's
generic or made to their specs.
On Sat, Oct 5, 2019 at 2:00 AM John Ackermann N8UR jra@febo.com
wrote:
Not a perfect solution, but for semi-permanent connections you can run
a
small tie-wrap lengthwise so the ends pass through the space between
where
the wires on each end split and the body. Cinch it tight and the
connectors won't come apart without cutting the tie wrap.
On Oct 4, 2019, 7:04 PM, at 7:04 PM, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
I used to use power pole, too but they don't lock firmly enough for my
liking. So I don't use them anymore. It would be perfect if there is
an option to add positive locking mechanism of some kind.
(Mr.) Taka Kamiya
KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
On Friday, October 4, 2019, 4:06:50 PM EDT, Didier Juges
shalimr9@gmail.com wrote:
That's what I do too. I do use Power Pole for my ham stuff that draws
high
current but for all the <2A 12V stuff the 5.1mm barrel connector with
positive center is hard to beat because I have so many power sources
and
equipment already wired for it. I am not ready to rewire all the off
the
shelf equipment that came with one of those.
Power Pole are convenient for batteries though because you can use the
connector to charge the battery or use it as a source.
Didier KO4BB
On Fri, Oct 4, 2019, 2:01 PM Taka Kamiya via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
Mine is very simple....
USB connector for 5VBarrel connector 5.5/2.1mm for 12VTerminal strip
for
24V
None of them are high power devices.
(Mr.) Taka Kamiya
KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
On Friday, October 4, 2019, 2:03:55 AM EDT, Bill Dailey <
docdailey@gmail.com> wrote:
Setting up a new workbench and am wondering what wisdom people can
offer. I am powering numerous synthesizers (5v), small receivers
(5v),
Upconverters (5v), larger receivers (12v), fury Gpsdo’s.. etc.
anyone use
something neat and not real expensive for distributing 5v and 12v. I
am
hoping for a long COTS pcb with fusing and maybe holes for plugs.
Any insights?
Bill
Bill Dailey
Negativity always wins the short game. But positivity wins the long
game.
- Gary Vaynerchuk
Don’t be easy to understand,
Be impossible to misunderstand
- Steve Sims
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Jeremy Nichols
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Larry and Bill have hit the nails on the heads. For crimping, it's
important to achieve a gas-tight connection, by essentially cold-welding
enough Cu of the wire to the Cu or alloy of the crimp device. Too much
of the wrong other materials present, or insufficient crimping force,
may produce weaker, less reliable joints, or rectifying junctions.
Environmental effects can take their toll over time too, so the
application and level of reliability needed should be considered.
For good crimps, the materials should be clean, of course, or typically
protected by thin plating like Sn or Ag or Ni. Some of the plating is
displaced during deformation, and the fresh, clean Cu underneath becomes
intimately bonded to that of the crimp device. Too little deformation
won't provide as much fresh Cu to bond, while too much will damage and
weaken the wire strands. The best crimps can be made with both the wire
and crimp made of bare copper, and thoroughly cleaned just before
crimping. This isn't very practical for routine use, so plated crimps
are much more common, while the wire can be had in all sorts of varieties.
Even tarnished bare Cu wire and crimps can work, as long as the crimping
action exposes enough good copper to bond, rather than just squeezing
them together, possibly forming a copper oxide rectifier (remember
those?). This doesn't matter much in power connections, but may
especially in small-signal applications. Consider the lowly wire-nut, an
insulated helical cone of spring steel, threaded onto two or more wires
that are simply in contact, say in AC power branch circuits. These work
just fine, if properly applied, left mostly undisturbed, and protected
from the elements.
Ed
Crimping machines and hand crimp tools all close the crimping dies to a
set position; that position on all bench machines and most hand crimp
tools is adjustable and is set to qualify the crimp. The cross-section
area of the conductor strand bundle is the dominant factor.
Optimally, the crimp conditions are correct for just one gage wire and
one strand count; most non-automotive cables are either 7 or 19 strand
because those counts fill the outer layer of the bundle fully--it is
geometry driven. Use a circle templet to draw a bundle: one strand in
the center, six strands around it fill the next layer and the next layer
brings the total to 19 strands. Seven and nineteen strand counts are not
arbitrary--it is geometry.
Connector manufacturers try to qualify a crimp terminal size for a range
of wire gages for economy and accept variation in how gas tight the
crimp is. But in optimal production, the crimp height is set using pull
force testing with the actual wire gage used. Connector manufacturers
supply recommended crimp heights for each terminal and wire gage (or
gage range). This height is measured with a special micrometer made for
the purpose.
Designing a crimp terminal is an art as well as science. The shape of
the crimp wings in a typical "B" crimp (in which the tips of the crimp
wings are folded around and down into the strand bundle) as well as the
exact shape of the crimp tool dies are critical. Worn tools produce poor
crimps. Even the exact shape of how the crimped crimp wings meet in the
strand bundle is important to temperature cycle performance of the
crimp; that shape can be inspected only by cross-sectioning the crimp zone.
Another qualification test of a crimp terminal and crimp dieset is
resistance change following high temperature soak. Typically, numerous
test crimps are made and voltage-measuring fine wires are spot welded
near the crimp zone. The initial resistance within the crimp zone is
measured with a high current, low resistance milliohm meter, the
terminal is thermal soaked at 125 or 140°C for 240 hours and the
resistance measured again. Only a few milliohms (sometimes less!)
change is acceptable for a good design.
Automotive wires are different only, I believe, because of
history--originally the individual wire gage was picked for volume cost
or convenient availability and the number of strands adjusted to provide
the required current carrying capacity. Unfortunately this means
automotive wire bundles usually don't have geometrically full bundles.
Geometrically full (i.e. 7 and 19 strand) bundles crimp more uniformly.
Automotive wires are not tin coated, another cost savings. The usage
volume is so high the bare copper strands don't corrode before assembly
and once crimped properly air does not get into the crimp zone. Many
automotive connectors are "sealed" with seals at the connector shell
interface and also around each insulated wire where it enters the shell.
This sealing is surprisingly effective and these mated connectors pass
240 hour salt fog testing; you routinely see these sealed connectors in
underhood applications.
Ok, there is a lot of science and engineering in making a good crimp.
But end users don't do this themselves, it is done by the connector
manufacturers. In production environments where reliability is important
(automotive in this case) the pull force testing I described previously
is routinely used, often at the start of each production shift in a good
production house.
In the case of Power-Pole connectors, as someone else described, the
exact placement and alignment of the crimp, and how the terminal deforms
during the crimp, is important to successful insertion of the crimped
terminal into the plastic shell where the contact-force leaf spring
retains the terminal and actually supplies the contact force. That's why
Power-Pole crimp tools position and align the contact end of the
terminal for crimping.
Yes, lots of details to consider. Nevertheless, crimped terminals are
more reliable when done correctly than soldered terminals.
One aspect of soldered terminals that is often overlooked is that solder
wicks down the strand bundle under the wire insulation, creating a solid
where the stranded wire enters the soldered terminal. That is a
stress-riser and a likely source of flexure failure.
Larry McDavid
On 10/6/2019 7:25 AM, jimlux wrote:
On 10/5/19 8:16 PM, Larry McDavid wrote:
I've used Power-Pole connectors for many years successfully and I've
always crimped them with appropriate Power-Pole crimp tools. I never,
never solder crimped connections! Heating a crimped connection to
soldering temperature will relax the crimp force in the crimp zone
and, if properly crimped, there is no gap among the wire strands for
solder to flow into. The result is always a loss of connection quality.
Stranded wire can be tinned or coated with solder by the wire
manufacturer and crimped successfully so long as the wire is
"non-fused-tin-coated." But, much stranded tinned wire is fused to
keep the strands together after removing the insulation; this type of
stranded wire should not be crimped. Much MIL Spec wire is silver
coated, inherently non-fused and crimps well.
Professionally (in both aerospace and high-rel automotive air bag
applications), I've had the "crimp zone" of very many crimped
connector contacts metallurgically mounted, cross-sectioned and
examined microscopically after polishing and etching to reveal the
individual strands even in the crimp zone. This is the ultimate method
to "qualify" a crimped connection. A "gas-tight" crimp shows under
microscopic examination no air gaps within the crimp zone--the crimped
wire bundle has gone solid and is "gas tight."
"Crimp pull force" is another, production level, crimp quality control
method but the proper method requires making numerous crimps at
various "crimp heights" (how reduced in dimension is the height of the
crimp zone) and pull force testing the resultant crimps. The requires
crimping by a machine or qualified hand crimp tool that is adjustable.
The pull force values are plotted against crimp height and the shape
of the curve examined. A crimp height resulting in a pull force just
as the pull force begins to decrease after reaching a peak value is
selected. A "looser" crimp is not "gas tight" and a "tighter" crimp
reduces the cross-section area of the wire bundle enough to weaken the
crimped connection. Crimped connections have to be crimped within a
narrow zone of compression and only the appropriate crimp tool,
appropriately calibrated, can provide this. Forget about all types of
"crimp pliers;" these are worthless tools.
interesting...
And I assume, then, that the degree of compression (set by the dies and
their position in the crimper) is wire gauge dependent - that is, the
crimper doesn't crimp to a specific force, it crimps to a particular
mechanical dimension, so if the number and size of strands is different,
then the degree of crush is different.
That sort of makes the "crimping a tiny wire by folding it back on
itself" or "crimping a tinywire by putting it with a big wire" a tricky
operation.
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--
Best wishes,
Larry McDavid W6FUB
Anaheim, California (SE of Los Angeles, near Disneyland)
It is even more difficult. I bought some cables from a company because I
did not have a crimper for 4/0. I was not impressed. My crimps were much
better.
I don't have a specific recommendation, but you should get a feel from them
that they understand the standards. Places that do work for aviation
generally have to do good work, as lives depend on it. Unfortunately, it is
a high labor activity, so many are not in the US. A long time ago, I worked
with some just south of the border in Mexico that did good work.
Regards,
Mark
W7MLG
On Sun, Oct 6, 2019 at 9:01 AM jimlux jimlux@earthlink.net wrote:
On 10/5/19 5:37 PM, Scott McGrath wrote:
Anything larger - i use a local assembly house which has hydraulic
crimpers for Anderson connectors.
a sort of generic question, not specifically aimed at this application
- there's a lot of specialized operations that are better left to
someone that knows how to do it. How does one find such assembly houses?
So how does one find these companies?
In the case of Power-Pole connectors, as someone else described, the
exact placement and alignment of the crimp, and how the terminal deforms
during the crimp, is important to successful insertion of the crimped
terminal into the plastic shell where the contact-force leaf spring
retains the terminal and actually supplies the contact force. That's why
Power-Pole crimp tools position and align the contact end of the
terminal for crimping.
The deformation of the terminal is a bigger deal than it appears at first. It is what gives the leaf spring room to do its thing. These are designed under the assumption that the contact will flatten out when crimped, and soldering by itself won't do that.
Longer story: I always used to solder PowerPole connectors, being too lazy to hunt down a crimper for them. (Until recently, I also wasn't aware that a good crimper could be had for $30 rather than $300.) Awhile back, I somehow managed to build a mated pair of 30A connectors that was completely open unless it was flexed in a particular direction. An X-ray of that one really drives home the point that Larry makes about deformation:
http://www.ke5fx.com/PowerPole_soldered_15sec_25kVp.png
Compare to properly-crimped terminals:
http://www.ke5fx.com/PowerPole_crimped_15sec_25kVp.png
My defective pair of 30A connectors yielded nice 'clicks' when I assembled them, as usual, but they don't snap together as nicely when mating. Because the soldered contacts are physically larger than the ones that come out of the crimping tool, the leaf spring can only do so much to compensate for bending forces. The contacts need more room to move.
Originally I thought the escaped solder from the front of the crimp area was what was distorting the contact geometry. It is probably what made the difference between the failed connection here and plenty of 'good' ones I've also made. But when I looked at the X-ray of the crimped version, I realized that the shape of the terminal was the real issue. There is arguably no way to do this job right without crimping.
-- john, KE5FX
Miles Design LLC / Jackson Labs LLC
After a failure under load of a starter cable on a large generator, I
finally broke down and bought a Burndy hydraulic crimper for the grounds
and cables I normally use.
Did two test low-tech tests:
First test on a 1" section of 2/0 DLO cable, with a two bolt telco lug
at each end. It failed at ~2200 ft/lbs, the wire itself broke strand by
strand.
Second test involved sawing the crimp across the barrel and looking for
voids. Using factory lugs and die, no voids were visible at 25X
magnification
On 10/6/2019 2:46 PM, Mark Goldberg wrote:
It is even more difficult. I bought some cables from a company because I
did not have a crimper for 4/0. I was not impressed. My crimps were much
better.
I don't have a specific recommendation, but you should get a feel from them
that they understand the standards. Places that do work for aviation
generally have to do good work, as lives depend on it. Unfortunately, it is
a high labor activity, so many are not in the US. A long time ago, I worked
with some just south of the border in Mexico that did good work.
Regards,
Mark
W7MLG
At a risk of having you folks tear it apart, here is my poor man's guide to
getting good crimps on large cables:
https://sites.google.com/site/marksrvmods/home/battery-wiring
You can see the cross section and there are no voids at all. You can hardly
see where the wire strands end and the lug begins.
These have given up to two years of service in my RV with no issues. I do
similar crimps with the Anderson SB175s.
I am using welding cable with a lot of strands. Tinned Marine cables and
lugs would be even better, but we live in a very dry climate.
Regards,
Mark
W7MLG
On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 9:00 PM Martin Flynn martin.flynn@compdecon.org
wrote:
After a failure under load of a starter cable on a large generator, I
finally broke down and bought a Burndy hydraulic crimper for the grounds
and cables I normally use.
Did two test low-tech tests:
First test on a 1" section of 2/0 DLO cable, with a two bolt telco lug
at each end. It failed at ~2200 ft/lbs, the wire itself broke strand by
strand.
Second test involved sawing the crimp across the barrel and looking for
voids. Using factory lugs and die, no voids were visible at 25X
magnification
On 10/6/2019 2:46 PM, Mark Goldberg wrote:
It is even more difficult. I bought some cables from a company because I
did not have a crimper for 4/0. I was not impressed. My crimps were much
better.
I don't have a specific recommendation, but you should get a feel from
them
that they understand the standards. Places that do work for aviation
generally have to do good work, as lives depend on it. Unfortunately, it
is
a high labor activity, so many are not in the US. A long time ago, I
worked
with some just south of the border in Mexico that did good work.
Regards,
Mark
W7MLG
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I have a similar crimper for lugs it works nicely, the cross section is the proof of the pudding so to speak.
Content by Scott
Typos by Siri
On Oct 8, 2019, at 12:14 AM, Mark Goldberg marklgoldberg@gmail.com wrote:
At a risk of having you folks tear it apart, here is my poor man's guide to
getting good crimps on large cables:
https://sites.google.com/site/marksrvmods/home/battery-wiring
You can see the cross section and there are no voids at all. You can hardly
see where the wire strands end and the lug begins.
These have given up to two years of service in my RV with no issues. I do
similar crimps with the Anderson SB175s.
I am using welding cable with a lot of strands. Tinned Marine cables and
lugs would be even better, but we live in a very dry climate.
Regards,
Mark
W7MLG
On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 9:00 PM Martin Flynn martin.flynn@compdecon.org
wrote:
After a failure under load of a starter cable on a large generator, I
finally broke down and bought a Burndy hydraulic crimper for the grounds
and cables I normally use.
Did two test low-tech tests:
First test on a 1" section of 2/0 DLO cable, with a two bolt telco lug
at each end. It failed at ~2200 ft/lbs, the wire itself broke strand by
strand.
Second test involved sawing the crimp across the barrel and looking for
voids. Using factory lugs and die, no voids were visible at 25X
magnification
On 10/6/2019 2:46 PM, Mark Goldberg wrote:
It is even more difficult. I bought some cables from a company because I
did not have a crimper for 4/0. I was not impressed. My crimps were much
better.
I don't have a specific recommendation, but you should get a feel from
them
that they understand the standards. Places that do work for aviation
generally have to do good work, as lives depend on it. Unfortunately, it
is
a high labor activity, so many are not in the US. A long time ago, I
worked
with some just south of the border in Mexico that did good work.
Regards,
Mark
W7MLG
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That thread won't die :)
Getting back briefly on the crimp versus solder debate, I want to give my 2
cents experience based opinion on this. I have been designing hardware used
in military platforms most of my life, save for a few years at the start
doing space hardware.
A properly crimped connection is generally preferred to a properly soldered
connection. The contact quality tends to be better (fewer materials are
involved) and it can more easily be automated, which eliminates the
variability of most human performed operation. There is no risk of residual
flux that can cause problems down the road if not properly cleaned.
HOWEVER, and this is my experience, if you do not have all the elements to
make a proper crimped connection, an adequate solder connection is usually
easier to achieve, particularly in a hobby setting. You need the right
crimping tool and the wire has to be the exact type required by the pin and
the tool. On the other hand, you only need one good soldering iron
(interchangeable tips certainly is a plus) for most types of pins and wires.
Patchwork like inserting a short piece of heavier gauge wire because the
wire is too small for the pin, or using the wrong tool will usualy give
unreliable results when crimped. Once you messed the crimp, you have to
replace the pin.
On the other hand, you can redo a solder joint as many times as you want
(make sure to suck up the old solder when you do) and soldering a wire
smaller than recommended for the pin may still yield acceptable results, at
least for anything that does not fly.
Soldering an already poorly crimped connection is not a great idea but if
the wire or pin were not seriously damaged and soldering is done properly,
I do not see much difference with a straight solder connection (hobby
setting of course).
Didier KO4BB
Glad I read all the replies since I was also going to suggest Canon
connectors. I have used the 3 pin canon because they are easy to find
and I am not going to plug a microphone into a power supply. The
breakout box is unique enough to not get it confused with anything
else. (Not suitable for the general public!!!)
That said, the 4 pin canon is a good idea. It is a power supply
standard. You can find cables online.
Mine is designed for battery use. I put reverse biased diodes across
the supply and use a fuse. I never hooked it up backwards but you never
know.
If you need to make holes for the Canon jacks, those Harbor Freight
multi-hole drills work fine.
On Fri, 4 Oct 2019 13:32:12 +0100
"Paul Bicknell" paul@bicknells.f2s.com wrote:
Hi I am standardising on 4 pin XLR connectors for 12 Volts as used in
the TV industry Perhaps you could use the 6 pin for 5 volts
I do not recommend the 2 pin as this is for 240 V ac
Or the 3 pin as you could take out a microphone
I am going to be Using military connectors for 24 V DC and 400 Hz
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@lists.febo.com] On Behalf
Of John Ackermann. N8UR
Sent: 04 October 2019 12:40
To: David Van Horn via time-nuts
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] DC distribution
I use lots and lots of Anderson PowerPoles and (mostly) West Mountain
Radio distribution units. I have different color codes for different
voltages -- red/black for 12v, orange/black for 24v, green/black for
5v, etc. Primary 12 and 24 volt sources are big AGM batteries across
float chargers.
On Oct 4, 2019, 2:03 AM, at 2:03 AM, Bill Dailey docdailey@gmail.com
wrote:
Setting up a new workbench and am wondering what wisdom people can
offer. I am powering numerous synthesizers (5v), small receivers
(5v), Upconverters (5v), larger receivers (12v), fury Gpsdo’s..
etc. anyone use something neat and not real expensive for
distributing 5v and 12v. I am hoping for a long COTS pcb with fusing
and maybe holes for plugs.
Any insights?
Bill
Bill Dailey
Negativity always wins the short game. But positivity wins the long
game. - Gary Vaynerchuk
Don’t be easy to understand,
Be impossible to misunderstand
- Steve Sims
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