time-nuts@lists.febo.com

Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement

View all threads

Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 63, Issue 52

MD
Magnus Danielson
Sun, Oct 11, 2009 3:35 PM

Arnold Tibus wrote:

On Sun, 11 Oct 2009 12:10:36 +0000, Mark Sims wrote:

Alas,  if there was only an FM to R...  there is some useful information in the revision history/comments near the beginning of the file heather.cpp

The OSC graph defaults to OFF because it tends to be a very jagged and noisy looking graph that gets rather annoyingly in the way of things.  The next rev of the program has a display filtering option that makes that plot look a lot more tame.

The OSC param is shown in PPB in the status info at the top of the screen since that is the way it comes into the program.  It is shown in PPT in the plots since that gives values that are much easier read against the scale divisions on the screen.  I have considered converting to PPT in the status info,  can't remember why it stayed PPB...


RTFM comes to mind:-)

Mark,

personally I have some promlems with the expressions as in LH
ppb, ppt etc. used because there are different meanings about
around the world and this is therefore misleading, error-prone.
If I search in the Internet I do find lots of discussions about.
Is there no way for an improvement, no standardization?

There is an international standard for it. It is part of the SI standard
which is also realized in ISO 31.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_System_of_Units

However, the first map could indicate why you have troubles.

I learned that in Germany (and all over continental Europe?)
1 thousend = 1.000 = E3
1 million = 1.000.000 = E6
1 milliard = 1.000.000.000 = E9
1 billion = 1.000.000.000.000 = E12
1 billiard = 1.000.000.000.000.000 = E15
1 trillion = 1.000.000.000.000.000.000 = E18
1 trilliard = 1.000.000.000.000.000.000.000 = E21
and so on with
quartrillion, quartrilliard, quintillion, quintilliard, sextillion, sextilliard....

and in the US and some more countries it is
million = 1,000,000
billion = 1,000,000,000
trillion = 1,000,000,000,000
and further ...? ( fantastillions acc. Donald Duck ;-))  )

wouldn't it be more scientific and less error-prone  to agree at least to
xE-3 instead of (m)
xE-6 instead of ppm (µ)
xE-9 instead of ppb (n)
xE-12 instead of ppt (p)
xE-15 instead of pp? etc. (f)
xE-18 (a)
(how do one express parts per mili...(E-3)?)

or if not wanted perhaps then this way :
x10^-6
x10^-9
x10^-12
etc.

or could one type eg. m, µ, p, f, a for milli, mikro, nano; pico, femto, atto?

These later two are standard representations. A particular problem is
that not all text formats contains the my symbol, so u has been an
accepted shorthand and so far this have not been result of confusion.

The 1.0E-6 form is adapted to ASCII computerized form, any should maybe
be avoided if possible.

When used these numbers in calculations we anyway have to convert
these ppm, ppb, ppt etc. to scientific numbers using exponents

4,6 µ can be confusing compared to 4,6 ppm as part-per- indicate a
normalized relative measure. This is as handy as in percent, promille,
part-per-milion etc. I can't recall a suitable means to handle it, but
you can write it in the ugly for of 4,6 µHz/Hz which would only convey
the normalization part and not the relative aspect (f-f0)/f0.

There are too often discussions and misunderstandings
because the ignored case sensitivity of units (b for bit, B for Byte,
m for milli, M for Mega...).

This can only be solved by means of education and correction.

Notice that 1 MB is to be interprented in 1.000.000 Bytes in SI
standard. If you want 1.048.576 Bytes you shall now write it as 1 MiB.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mebi

It's ugly, i know, but solves the problem and is consistent.

Btw. I remember to all these strange mmH, µµF etc. when I collected
rare inductors, capacitors revovered from vintage MIL- equipment in
the end fifties/ early sixties of last century ... :-)

You still see stuff like 0,001 uF and 0,010 uF regularly, even if they
should be baned as their propper form of 1 nF and 10 nF is what should
be used.

I find myself using the shorthand of inserting the prefix number in
place of the decimal point, as this can easilly become hart to read, so
a 2k2 resistor is easy to convey in schematics and ASCII formats, while
2,2 kOhm is more propper.

The carefull reader will discover my use of the "," for decimal place
and "." for digit separation. The US convention works the other way
around. It is also part of the US adaptation of the SI standard, so care
should be taken not to interprent the NIST publication as conveying the
correct detail for certain things, they are only to be viewed as local
interpretation to the USA, possibly only recommended use.

I believe that Time Nuts prefer precise and clear expressions!? ;-)
What do you think about it?

There is still some debate to be had. I don't recall that there is a
propper "SI style" relative normalized form. Need to check the docks,
but if someone could enligthen me that would be super.

Cheersm
Magnus

Arnold Tibus wrote: > On Sun, 11 Oct 2009 12:10:36 +0000, Mark Sims wrote: > > >> Alas, if there was only an FM to R... there is some useful information in the revision history/comments near the beginning of the file heather.cpp > >> The OSC graph defaults to OFF because it tends to be a very jagged and noisy looking graph that gets rather annoyingly in the way of things. The next rev of the program has a display filtering option that makes that plot look a lot more tame. > >> The OSC param is shown in PPB in the status info at the top of the screen since that is the way it comes into the program. It is shown in PPT in the plots since that gives values that are much easier read against the scale divisions on the screen. I have considered converting to PPT in the status info, can't remember why it stayed PPB... > >> ---------------------------------------- > >> RTFM comes to mind:-) > > > Mark, > > personally I have some promlems with the expressions as in LH > ppb, ppt etc. used because there are different meanings about > around the world and this is therefore misleading, error-prone. > If I search in the Internet I do find lots of discussions about. > Is there no way for an improvement, no standardization? There is an international standard for it. It is part of the SI standard which is also realized in ISO 31. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_System_of_Units However, the first map could indicate why you have troubles. > I learned that in Germany (and all over continental Europe?) > 1 thousend = 1.000 = E3 > 1 million = 1.000.000 = E6 > 1 milliard = 1.000.000.000 = E9 > 1 billion = 1.000.000.000.000 = E12 > 1 billiard = 1.000.000.000.000.000 = E15 > 1 trillion = 1.000.000.000.000.000.000 = E18 > 1 trilliard = 1.000.000.000.000.000.000.000 = E21 > and so on with > quartrillion, quartrilliard, quintillion, quintilliard, sextillion, sextilliard.... > > and in the US and some more countries it is > million = 1,000,000 > billion = 1,000,000,000 > trillion = 1,000,000,000,000 > and further ...? ( fantastillions acc. Donald Duck ;-)) ) > > wouldn't it be more scientific and less error-prone to agree at least to > xE-3 instead of (m) > xE-6 instead of ppm (µ) > xE-9 instead of ppb (n) > xE-12 instead of ppt (p) > xE-15 instead of pp? etc. (f) > xE-18 (a) > (how do one express parts per mili...(E-3)?) > > or if not wanted perhaps then this way : > x10^-6 > x10^-9 > x10^-12 > etc. > > or could one type eg. m, µ, p, f, a for milli, mikro, nano; pico, femto, atto? These later two are standard representations. A particular problem is that not all text formats contains the my symbol, so u has been an accepted shorthand and so far this have not been result of confusion. The 1.0E-6 form is adapted to ASCII computerized form, any should maybe be avoided if possible. > When used these numbers in calculations we anyway have to convert > these ppm, ppb, ppt etc. to scientific numbers using exponents 4,6 µ can be confusing compared to 4,6 ppm as part-per- indicate a normalized relative measure. This is as handy as in percent, promille, part-per-milion etc. I can't recall a suitable means to handle it, but you can write it in the ugly for of 4,6 µHz/Hz which would only convey the normalization part and not the relative aspect (f-f0)/f0. > There are too often discussions and misunderstandings > because the ignored case sensitivity of units (b for bit, B for Byte, > m for milli, M for Mega...). This can only be solved by means of education and correction. Notice that 1 MB is to be interprented in 1.000.000 Bytes in SI standard. If you want 1.048.576 Bytes you shall now write it as 1 MiB. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mebi It's ugly, i know, but solves the problem and is consistent. > Btw. I remember to all these strange mmH, µµF etc. when I collected > rare inductors, capacitors revovered from vintage MIL- equipment in > the end fifties/ early sixties of last century ... :-) You still see stuff like 0,001 uF and 0,010 uF regularly, even if they should be baned as their propper form of 1 nF and 10 nF is what should be used. I find myself using the shorthand of inserting the prefix number in place of the decimal point, as this can easilly become hart to read, so a 2k2 resistor is easy to convey in schematics and ASCII formats, while 2,2 kOhm is more propper. The carefull reader will discover my use of the "," for decimal place and "." for digit separation. The US convention works the other way around. It is also part of the US adaptation of the SI standard, so care should be taken not to interprent the NIST publication as conveying the correct detail for certain things, they are only to be viewed as local interpretation to the USA, possibly only recommended use. > I believe that Time Nuts prefer precise and clear expressions!? ;-) > What do you think about it? There is still some debate to be had. I don't recall that there is a propper "SI style" relative normalized form. Need to check the docks, but if someone could enligthen me that would be super. Cheersm Magnus
M
mikes@flatsurface.com
Sun, Oct 11, 2009 4:15 PM

At 11:35 AM 10/11/2009, Magnus Danielson wrote...

The carefull reader will discover my use of the "," for decimal place
and "." for digit separation. The US convention works the other way
around. It is also part of the US adaptation of the SI standard, so
care should be taken not to interprent the NIST publication as
conveying the correct detail for certain things, they are only to be
viewed as local interpretation to the USA, possibly only recommended
use.

No, It's not a "US adaptation," it is part of the SI (ref:
http://www.bipm.org/utils/common/pdf/si_brochure_8.pdf ), which BTW
doesn't allow a glyph to be used for "digit separation," so there can
be no ambiguity:

"5.3.4 Formatting numbers, and the decimal marker

"The symbol used to separate the integral part of a number from its
decimal part is called the decimal marker. Following the 22nd CGPM
(2003, Resolution 10), the decimal marker "shall be either the point on
the line or the comma on the line." The decimal marker chosen should be
that which is customary in the context concerned.

"If the number is between +1 and -1, then the decimal marker is always
preceded by a zero. Following the 9th CGPM (1948, Resolution 7) and the
22nd CGPM (2003, Resolution 10), for numbers with many digits the
digits may be divided into groups of three by a thin space, in order to
facilitate reading. Neither dots nor commas are inserted in the spaces
between groups of three..."

At 11:35 AM 10/11/2009, Magnus Danielson wrote... >The carefull reader will discover my use of the "," for decimal place >and "." for digit separation. The US convention works the other way >around. It is also part of the US adaptation of the SI standard, so >care should be taken not to interprent the NIST publication as >conveying the correct detail for certain things, they are only to be >viewed as local interpretation to the USA, possibly only recommended >use. No, It's not a "US adaptation," it is part of the SI (ref: http://www.bipm.org/utils/common/pdf/si_brochure_8.pdf ), which BTW doesn't allow a glyph to be used for "digit separation," so there can be no ambiguity: "5.3.4 Formatting numbers, and the decimal marker "The symbol used to separate the integral part of a number from its decimal part is called the decimal marker. Following the 22nd CGPM (2003, Resolution 10), the decimal marker "shall be either the point on the line or the comma on the line." The decimal marker chosen should be that which is customary in the context concerned. "If the number is between +1 and -1, then the decimal marker is always preceded by a zero. Following the 9th CGPM (1948, Resolution 7) and the 22nd CGPM (2003, Resolution 10), for numbers with many digits the digits may be divided into groups of three by a thin space, in order to facilitate reading. Neither dots nor commas are inserted in the spaces between groups of three..."
MD
Magnus Danielson
Sun, Oct 11, 2009 4:49 PM

Mike S wrote:

At 11:35 AM 10/11/2009, Magnus Danielson wrote...

The carefull reader will discover my use of the "," for decimal place
and "." for digit separation. The US convention works the other way
around. It is also part of the US adaptation of the SI standard, so
care should be taken not to interprent the NIST publication as
conveying the correct detail for certain things, they are only to be
viewed as local interpretation to the USA, possibly only recommended use.

No, It's not a "US adaptation," it is part of the SI (ref:
http://www.bipm.org/utils/common/pdf/si_brochure_8.pdf ), which BTW
doesn't allow a glyph to be used for "digit separation," so there can be
no ambiguity:

"5.3.4 Formatting numbers, and the decimal marker

"The symbol used to separate the integral part of a number from its
decimal part is called the decimal marker. Following the 22nd CGPM
(2003, Resolution 10), the decimal marker "shall be either the point on
the line or the comma on the line." The decimal marker chosen should be
that which is customary in the context concerned.

"If the number is between +1 and -1, then the decimal marker is always
preceded by a zero. Following the 9th CGPM (1948, Resolution 7) and the
22nd CGPM (2003, Resolution 10), for numbers with many digits the digits
may be divided into groups of three by a thin space, in order to
facilitate reading. Neither dots nor commas are inserted in the spaces
between groups of three..."

I stand corrected... the 2001 version of SP330 had this type of
limitation as I recall it where as the 2008 version does not.

From the foreword of NIST SP330-2001:

"Thus, this USA edition differs from the English-language version in the
BIPM publication in the following
details: (1) the dot is used instead of the comma as the decimal marker;
(2) the American spellings ‘‘meter,’’
‘‘liter,’’ and ‘‘deka’’ are used instead of ‘‘metre,’’ ‘‘litre,’’ and
‘‘deca’’; (3) a small number of footnotes are
added for explanatory purposes and to identify USA practices that differ
from those suggested in the BIPM
publication; (4) in a few instances, American rather than British
spelling or usage is followed for a few
common words; and (5) the index has been moderately expanded.

From the foreword of NIST SP33-2008:

"Like its 2001 predecessor, the 2008 edition of NIST SP 330 conforms
with the English text in the
BIPM SI Brochure but contains a few minor differences to reflect the
most recent interpretation of the
SI for the United States by the Secretary of Commerce, as published in
the Federal Register of July
28, 1998, 63 FR 40334-40340. (The Metric Conversion Act of 1975 gives
the Secretary of Commerce
the responsibility of interpreting or modifying the SI for use in the
United States. A slightly updated
version of the 1998 interpretation is expected to be published in the
Federal Register in 2008.) These
differences include the following: (i) The spelling of English words is
in accordance with the United
States Government Printing Office Style Manual, which follows Webster's
Third New International
Dictionary rather than the Oxford Dictionary. Thus the spellings
“meter,” “liter,” and “deka” are used
rather than “metre,” “litre,” and “deca” as in the original BIPM English
text; (ii) the name of the unit
with symbol t and defined according to 1 t = 10³ kg is called “metric
ton” rather than "tonne"; (iii) the
four units curie, roentgen, rad, and rem are given in Table 10, p. 38;
(iv) a number of "Editors’ notes"
are added in order to indicate such differences where significant
(except spelling differences) and to
clarify the text; and (v) a few very minor editorial changes are made in
order to “Americanize” some
phrases."

Notice that the "dot" rather than "comma" change have been removed.

I recalled correctly, but the reality changed from when I last checked.

Cheers,
Magnus

Mike S wrote: > At 11:35 AM 10/11/2009, Magnus Danielson wrote... >> The carefull reader will discover my use of the "," for decimal place >> and "." for digit separation. The US convention works the other way >> around. It is also part of the US adaptation of the SI standard, so >> care should be taken not to interprent the NIST publication as >> conveying the correct detail for certain things, they are only to be >> viewed as local interpretation to the USA, possibly only recommended use. > > No, It's not a "US adaptation," it is part of the SI (ref: > http://www.bipm.org/utils/common/pdf/si_brochure_8.pdf ), which BTW > doesn't allow a glyph to be used for "digit separation," so there can be > no ambiguity: > > "5.3.4 Formatting numbers, and the decimal marker > > "The symbol used to separate the integral part of a number from its > decimal part is called the decimal marker. Following the 22nd CGPM > (2003, Resolution 10), the decimal marker "shall be either the point on > the line or the comma on the line." The decimal marker chosen should be > that which is customary in the context concerned. > > "If the number is between +1 and -1, then the decimal marker is always > preceded by a zero. Following the 9th CGPM (1948, Resolution 7) and the > 22nd CGPM (2003, Resolution 10), for numbers with many digits the digits > may be divided into groups of three by a thin space, in order to > facilitate reading. Neither dots nor commas are inserted in the spaces > between groups of three..." I stand corrected... the 2001 version of SP330 had this type of limitation as I recall it where as the 2008 version does not. From the foreword of NIST SP330-2001: "Thus, this USA edition differs from the English-language version in the BIPM publication in the following details: (1) the dot is used instead of the comma as the decimal marker; (2) the American spellings ‘‘meter,’’ ‘‘liter,’’ and ‘‘deka’’ are used instead of ‘‘metre,’’ ‘‘litre,’’ and ‘‘deca’’; (3) a small number of footnotes are added for explanatory purposes and to identify USA practices that differ from those suggested in the BIPM publication; (4) in a few instances, American rather than British spelling or usage is followed for a few common words; and (5) the index has been moderately expanded. From the foreword of NIST SP33-2008: "Like its 2001 predecessor, the 2008 edition of NIST SP 330 conforms with the English text in the BIPM SI Brochure but contains a few minor differences to reflect the most recent interpretation of the SI for the United States by the Secretary of Commerce, as published in the Federal Register of July 28, 1998, 63 FR 40334-40340. (The Metric Conversion Act of 1975 gives the Secretary of Commerce the responsibility of interpreting or modifying the SI for use in the United States. A slightly updated version of the 1998 interpretation is expected to be published in the Federal Register in 2008.) These differences include the following: (i) The spelling of English words is in accordance with the United States Government Printing Office Style Manual, which follows Webster's Third New International Dictionary rather than the Oxford Dictionary. Thus the spellings “meter,” “liter,” and “deka” are used rather than “metre,” “litre,” and “deca” as in the original BIPM English text; (ii) the name of the unit with symbol t and defined according to 1 t = 10³ kg is called “metric ton” rather than "tonne"; (iii) the four units curie, roentgen, rad, and rem are given in Table 10, p. 38; (iv) a number of "Editors’ notes" are added in order to indicate such differences where significant (except spelling differences) and to clarify the text; and (v) a few very minor editorial changes are made in order to “Americanize” some phrases." Notice that the "dot" rather than "comma" change have been removed. I recalled correctly, but the reality changed from when I last checked. Cheers, Magnus