Hi everyone,

I have never posted to this list because we have an (ahem) sailboat, but I
come here all the time for information.  But I can't find anyone who has
posted this question, so here goes:

I am building a DC genset on a Yanmar 2GM20.  I am putting in two
alternators off the drive end (no transmission) so that they counter
balance each other and provide redundancy. (that is why I'm not going for
the commercially available gensets like the Balmar or the Ample Power ones
that only have one big alternator)

I am considering a pair of Balmar 97-24-140 BLs controlled by an Ample
Power V3.  I spoke to Balmar about the MC-624, but they said it does not
have the field current capability to control the twin 140s.  They could
"soup it up" for me at a cost of $50 per regulators, but I would have to
buy 4 regulators.  I will want two for sure (one spare) but not 4.  The V3
does have the capacity to drive both.

I will be having the same alternator on the front end of the main engine
and that will need a regulator too.  However, it would not need such a
brainy one because it will be running for longer periods of time.  So I
could go with a lower grade Balmar or Ample Power.

So that's the book, here are my questions:

1. Does anyone have experience of the Balmar 97 series, particularly the
   140s. (24 VDC).  Would you buy it again? Would you buy something else?

2. Does anyone have any experience of the Ample Power V3 or the Balmar
   MC-624?  Anyone used both?  Which would you recommend?

3. Do the Ample Power regulators work well with the Balmar alternators?

4. What kind of regulator would you recommend for a propulsion engine
   alternator (a house alternator, not the starting battery alternator).

Thanks

Kate
Seal

Dear Kate,
Balmar builds a good alternator, but they are overpriced, in my
opinion.  Try a local alternator shop near you, tell them what
you want, and see if they get glassy-eyed.  If not, you can save
a bundle by buying rebuilt H.O alternators from them.  Many
TWL'ers have praised the alternators from the Battery Shack in
Marathon, FL, if you don't dfind a local shop.

The alternators on your homebuilt genset may not need smart
regulation at all.  I assume you will only run this genset when
the batteries are substantially discharged.  For about $30 each,
you can get manually adjustable (a little ecrew accessible
through a hole in the cover) regulators at an auto parts shop or
alternator rebuilder.  Some of these, at least, will regulate two
140a alternators, as that's what I'm using on Pooh.  Set this
regulator to about 14.2 or 14.3v (depending a bit on battery
temperature), and charge away.  This high a setting would be hard
on the batteries if charging them for many hours a day
(propulsion engine running up the ICW), but will give a
reasonably fast charge in a couple of hours.  The alternator on
the main engine is the one that needs smart regulation.

=====
Mark Richter, M.E., aboard M/V Winnie the Pooh,
"Mark's Mobile Marine" electrical systems repair & consulting.  Homeport Stuart, FL  Verizon cell 772-631-7408, free after 9PM & weekends.

Mark wrote:

-----Original Message-----
The alternators on your homebuilt genset may not need smart
regulation at all.  I assume you will only run this genset when
the batteries are substantially discharged.

REPLY
For once Mark and I differ slightly  in our opinion on matters electrical.

In his own case it may be practical to manually supervise the charging operation
and continually adjust the  single step regulator to maintain the highest
possible  output rate.
If  you simply set and leave the adjustment;  then the alternator will gradually
taper off as the battery  becomes charged and this prolongs the time it takes to
reach the 85% full point. Which in turn means longer run time and  more fuel
burn.
Only the smart 3 stage regulator has the built in control to automatically
adjust the field current to maintain a fixed  high bulk charge rate for the
whole period of time.

Given the fact there are three alternators total I would be inclined to have
all three use the same regulator. That way  only  one single spare is needed to
provide backup in the case of a failure of any of them.  And buying  four
regulators  should result in some savings  per unit cost.

regards

Arild

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<<If  you simply set and leave the adjustment;  then the
alternator will gradually taper off as the battery  becomes
charged and this prolongs the time it takes to reach the 85% full
point. Which in turn means longer run time and  more fuel
burn.>>

A smart regulator (also called a 3-stage regulator) actually has
only 2 voltage setpoints.  On boats in moderate climes they would
be approximately 14.3 and 13.4 volts.  The fastest charging
occurs at 14.3 volts.  The only reason to drop down to 13.4 volts
after a couple of hours is to avoid overcharging and de-hydrating
the batteries.  Conventional regulators are single voltage
setpoint devices, typically set to about 14.0v, acompromise
between slow charging and over-charging.

In the application on a charging genset, I believe a single
setpoint regulator, if set to 14.3v,  will prove more than
adequate.  By the time the batteries reach 85 or 90% charged, the
boat owner will be shutting down the genset, so overcharging will
be minimal, and well within the batteries (flooded, deep
discharge) tolerance.  A three-stage regulator will only just be
reaching the cutoff point to drop to the lower voltage  when the
owner is shutting down, so little benefit accrues.

If a fixed voltage regulator of 14.0v is used, then I agree with
Arild that charging will be needlessly be prolonged, but dumb,
adjustable voltage setpoint regulattors are readily available for
modest prices, and will work well in this application.

I don't recommend single voltage setpoint regulators for most
applications on propulsion engines, unless the owner likes to
tinker a lot with his electrical system, and the regulator is
mounted in a readily accessed area for frequent adjustments.
Accurate battery monitoring with a Link or similar digital
battery monitor is also a necessary condition for proper charging
with dumb regulators.

=====
Mark Richter, M.E., aboard M/V Winnie the Pooh,
"Mark's Mobile Marine" electrical systems repair & consulting.  Homeport Stuart, FL  Verizon cell 772-631-7408, free after 9PM & weekends.

Mark wrote:
A smart regulator (also called a 3-stage regulator) actually has
only 2 voltage setpoints.  The fastest charging
occurs at 14.3 volts.  The only reason to drop down to 13.4 volts
after a couple of hours is to avoid overcharging and de-hydrating
the batteries.  Conventional regulators are single voltage
setpoint devices, typically set to about 14.0v, acompromise
between slow charging and over-charging.

REPLY
What Mark describes is perhaps true for some regulators but that is NOT how a
Balmar regulator functions.

The Balmar regulator has about 10,000 lines of code for the microprocessor and
has more functionality  than most other brands.
There is a general impression by many people that a regulator and charger works
exactly  the same way.

The Balmar stores in memory  five different preprogrammed  charging schemes to
accommodate various flooded, gel and  AGM batteries.
In addition the user can  adjust individual set points  to suit specialized
needs as indicated by the battery manufacturer's  recommendation.

Bulk charge is the initial stage when the current flow is held constant at some
maximum rate limited by the charging source. In this case the alternator
windings and the RPM  The only adjustment  possible on an alternator is to vary
the field current.

By comparison  something like a True Charger can actually limit the  maximum
voltage put out by the AC powered charger.
The Balmar regulator refers to what is called a target voltage and which is
checked by a sense wire separate from the battery cable.
When the actual battery voltage is below the target voltage the  field current
is set to maximum. At that point the  battery itself is the only limiting
factor on the voltage.
Every few seconds the  regulator shuts off the field current and measures what
the battery terminal voltage actually is.
If the  measured  terminal voltage is below the target voltage the field current
is turned back on to max and maximum current flows.
Keep in mind that an alternator has an output curve dependent on RPM of the
rotor.
Therefore the maximum current will not always be the same; as would be the case
something lie a True Charge from Statpower.

Digital  and analog regulators have different ways to regulate.
Analog  regulators  typically have an adjustment screw and they do work like
Mark described.  In that regard they are little better than the old single stage
regulators.
There are a lot of regulators claiming to be three stage but which in fact only
have analog trim pot adjustments.
Such trim pots can and do change resistance over time as a result of vibration
and sometimes  thermal cycling  due to being located next to a hot diesel
engine.
True digital regulators have no moving parts and can be completely encapsulated
against moisture ingress.
The Balmar regulator uses a magnetic reed switch to make adjustments.  No moving
parts at all.

When the measured terminal voltage reaches the target voltage then the field
current is constantly adjusted to maintain some maximum value that is lower than
the gassing point of the battery.  To this end a battery temperature sensor
circuit is included in the regulator.
When an alternator is running hard for long periods of time it gets hot.
Sometimes too hot.
To prevent damage to the alternator the regulator also has another  temp sensor
which measures he case temperature of the alternator.
If the case temperature reaches 180F the field current is cut back to half and
thus the  maximum  current output is also cut in half.

Because batteries are very sensitive to temperature changes above room temp, the
compensation curve starts to kick in above 75F and derates the target voltage
and triggers an alarm if the battery temp goes above 120F.

The Balmar regulator also has a digital  readout built in  that indicates the
actual system voltage or  when in programming mode shows which program is being
used.
There is even a second battery temp sensor input so you can measure both start
and house banks  when their location means the two sets have different ambient
temp conditions.  Which ever bank has the highest ambient condition  determines
the amount of compensation to prevent battery damage.

Obligatory  declaration.
I became acquainted with the technical details of Balmar and True charge
products  back when I worked for Xantrex.
Although I have no connection with either company  at this time;. I admire
technical excellence and prefer to use products  that incorporate such design
excellence.

regards

Arild.

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Has anyone seen new boats that use individual terminal blocks  mounted on a DIN
rail instead of the conventional  barrier terminal strips?

I have recently  come across a product that  seems so neat and  effective that I
am wondering why more boat builders  are not looking at using them also.

The advantage of these terminal blocks are;
you do not need crimp on terminals,
the actual assembly goes faster,
they can accommodate many more  wires in a given space, and
the blocks better accommodate joining wires of different sizes than a butt
splice
greater flexibility  in wiring not mention  joining several wires to a common
point.
Making changes is easier  than with  conventional terminal strips
the wire fastening system is gas tight and  vibration proof.

regards
Arild

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Arild said: Has anyone seen new boats that use individual terminal blocks
mounted on a
DIN rail instead of the conventional  barrier terminal strips?

More info please Arild.
What's a DIN rail and where can one see a pic?
Thanks and cheers
Glenn

-----Original Message-----
From: Glenn Williams

More info please Arild.
What's a DIN rail and where can one see a pic?

REPLY
A DIN rail is an industry standard  mounting rail for  terminal blocks.
Used extensively in industrial applications for more decades than I remember.
It wasn't new when I  first got acquainted with it back in the early 1970's

One shape is like a "C" in cross section the other looks more like an inverter
"top hat"

The advantage being you can mount  various sized and shaped terminal blocks to
suit varying size wires.

For an example look at the WAGO brand  website.

www.wago.com

This is by no means the only terminal block manufacturer. Other brand are
Weidmueller, Phoenix,  Weiland.

WAGO also has a unique screwless fastening system that eliminates the need for
crimp on  ring terminals or captive forks.
WAGO  has blocks to accommodate  wires and cables  from #26 Ga. up to # 3/0 Ga.
That pretty well covers most DC and AC applications except perhaps the main
battery cables and the inverter cables.
The design of the blocks means there are no exposed conductors to short out or
cause a shock hazard.

This  is not something  that is suitable if you only plan to add one or two
circuits. It is however a suitable application for newbuilds or  total rewires
or major upgrades.
Not having to crimp on terminals  is a major time saver when you are connecting
50 or more wires in a main panel or the console at the helm.

The ability to jumper parallel wires in pairs or as many as you wish
facilitates constructing  bus bars and joiners as needed without placing
separate bus bars or terminal strips.

Cheers

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-----Original Message-----
Arild said: Has anyone seen new boats that use individual terminal blocks
mounted on a DIN rail instead of the conventional  barrier terminal strips?

REPLY (2)

One reason I ask is that Ed Sherman from ABYC has published a few articles in
Professional Boat builder magazine and has occasionally  illustrated  his
articles with such terminal strips.  However I am not aware of any domestic ( N.
American) production boat builders using this.

I know Ed is also spending a lot of time  liaising with European builders as
part of his ABYC job to promote the adoption of ABYC specs  as a European boat
standard.  ABYC does not specifically  mention this kind of termination system.
I'm just wondering  if builders are reluctant to use something proven in decades
of industrial use simply because ABYC has not specifically  blessed it as
"marine"

Ironically ABS, DNV and Lloyds has approved them for shipboard use.
Once again, we are left wondering about the validity of  ABYC  standards and how
up to date with technology  they  are.

Cheers

Arild

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