Hi Mike - I think we need to compare similar horsepower engines for this discussion, and I think 0.275 is pretty optimistic for 400HP. What engine is achieving that figure? Within a reasonable range of HP, 4-stroke engines will have approximately the same BSFC at the same rating, i.e. at max torque, where BSFC is lowest, and at max HP, where it is typically 0.05 lb/hp/hr higher. Same is true for 2-stroke Diesels, which will burn about another 0.04 more than a 4-stroke. Of course MMMV! Regards, John "Seahorse" > Smaller engines generally use more fuel per pound of horsepower per hour. The 60 hp Isuzu 4JB1 uses about .350 pounds per hour per horsepower. A 400 hp engine is more likely to be about .275. This detail is one factor which can not be ignored. ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

Not to take away from your conversation about the Krogen and Dashew, but this is my first post to PUP. I would like to know from you what you consider the top five passage makers to be and why. My wife and I are getting very close to retiring to a boat and intend on extensive cruising. I have been reading Passage Maker for some years now and would really like some "real world" help on the purchase of a passage maker. Considering safety and fuel consumption, I could really use some help. Kindest Regards, Robert Miller Imagecom, Inc. 3729 East 82nd Place Tulsa, Oklahoma 74137 robert@imagecominc.com 918-704-8233 918-494-0012 FAX > From: <Truelove39@aol.com> > Reply-To: Passagemaking Under Power List > <passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com> > Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 08:18:22 EDT > To: <mikem@yachtsdelivered.com> > Cc: <passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com> > Subject: [PUP] BSFC (wasKrogen 55 Expedition vs Dashew FPB64) > > Hi Mike - > > I think we need to compare similar horsepower engines for this discussion, > and I think 0.275 is pretty optimistic for 400HP. What engine is achieving > that figure? > > Within a reasonable range of HP, 4-stroke engines will have approximately > the same BSFC at the same rating, i.e. at max torque, where BSFC is lowest, > and at max HP, where it is typically 0.05 lb/hp/hr higher. Same is true for > 2-stroke Diesels, which will burn about another 0.04 more than a 4-stroke. > > Of course MMMV! > > Regards, > > John > "Seahorse" > > >> Smaller engines generally use more fuel per pound of horsepower per hour. > The 60 hp Isuzu 4JB1 uses about .350 pounds per hour per horsepower. > A 400 hp engine is more likely to be about .275. > > This detail is one factor which can not be ignored. > > > > > > ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com > _______________________________________________ > http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power > > To unsubscribe send email to > passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word > UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message. > > Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World Productions, > formerly known as Trawler World Productions.

o;? Robert, I think that you would get some answers that might be of more help to the members here if you told us a little bit about what you want to do, how much boat you want, and what you want in it. Are you headed to the South Pacific or up and down the east coast and occasionally to the Bahamas? How many cabins do you want? You want new -- recently new -- or an older model? What boating experience do you have? Do you have a size in mind or a price . . . .just to list a few items that can change the recommendations you get. The more information you provide, the more focused response you will get. Me? . . . . . I couldn't find what I wanted out there, so I had one designed and it's being built in Canada (I am still trying to figure out how to get that exchange rate back to where it was when I started, though!!). Alan Wagner Tampa, Florida Building "Passage of Time," 53' aluminum, Kasten designed passagemaker http://tinyurl.com/2wa25u http://kastenmarine.com/valdemar52.htm -------Original Message------- From: Robert Miller Not to take away from your conversation about the Krogen and Dashew, but this is my first post to PUP. I would like to know from you what you consider the top five passage makers to be and why. My wife and I are getting very close to retiring to a boat and intend on extensive cruising.

That's an incredibly complicated question, Robert. Sort of like asking what's the best car to buy without giving the respondent any other information. If you can summarize your planned usage, likely routes, planned ocean crossings or coastal cruising, etc. etc. etc. The boat at the top of one list of requirements might be at the bottom of another. John Marshall On Oct 21, 2007, at 9:35 AM, Robert Miller wrote: > Not to take away from your conversation about the Krogen and > Dashew, but > this is my first post to PUP. I would like to know from you what you > consider the top five passage makers to be and why. My wife and I are > getting very close to retiring to a boat and intend on extensive > cruising. > I have been reading Passage Maker for some years now and would > really like > some "real world" help on the purchase of a passage maker. > Considering > safety and fuel consumption, I could really use some help. > > > Kindest Regards, > > Robert Miller > > Imagecom, Inc. > 3729 East 82nd Place > Tulsa, Oklahoma 74137 > robert@imagecominc.com > 918-704-8233 > 918-494-0012 FAX > > > >> From: <Truelove39@aol.com> >> Reply-To: Passagemaking Under Power List >> <passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com> >> Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 08:18:22 EDT >> To: <mikem@yachtsdelivered.com> >> Cc: <passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com> >> Subject: [PUP] BSFC (wasKrogen 55 Expedition vs Dashew FPB64) >> >> Hi Mike - >> >> I think we need to compare similar horsepower engines for this >> discussion, >> and I think 0.275 is pretty optimistic for 400HP. What engine is >> achieving >> that figure? >> >> Within a reasonable range of HP, 4-stroke engines will have >> approximately >> the same BSFC at the same rating, i.e. at max torque, where BSFC >> is lowest, >> and at max HP, where it is typically 0.05 lb/hp/hr higher. Same >> is true for >> 2-stroke Diesels, which will burn about another 0.04 more than a >> 4-stroke. >> >> Of course MMMV! >> >> Regards, >> >> John >> "Seahorse" >> >> >>> Smaller engines generally use more fuel per pound of horsepower >>> per hour. >> The 60 hp Isuzu 4JB1 uses about .350 pounds per hour per horsepower. >> A 400 hp engine is more likely to be about .275. >> >> This detail is one factor which can not be ignored. >> >> >> >> >> >> ************************************** See what's new at http:// >> www.aol.com >> _______________________________________________ >> http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power >> >> To unsubscribe send email to >> passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word >> UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message. >> >> Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World >> Productions, >> formerly known as Trawler World Productions. > _______________________________________________ > http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power > > To unsubscribe send email to > passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word > UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message. > > Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World > Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.

You know what would be an interesting exercise? For each of us to share what key factors was driving our decisions, and how we ended up choosing the boats we did. I suspect Robert is like many others who really don't know how they will use their boats, but want to cover as many contingencies as possible. For instance I'll share my criteria: A. Time: I wanted to leave for our journey within 1.5 to 2 years. We have a 2 (now lobbying for 3) year cruising window enabled by family matters being fairly settled down. When we purchased the boat neither daughter was engaged. Both ended up getting married 3 months prior to our departure. Parents are healthy or being cared for by other siblings. This meant ordering or building a boat was out of the question. B. Quality: I was willing to pay more for a quality product. I had a budget of 500 to 800K and wanted to buy the least amount of boat that would do the job. C. Capability: I wanted a boat that was ocean capable enabling me to circumnavigate, even though I reset my goals to more of a coastal route (due to my lack of real ocean experience). My rational was a boat capable of crossing oceans would have additional engineering and safety margin that would benefit my chosen routes D. Size: I wanted two staterooms, realizing the number of times the guest stateroom would be used would be small. I was willing to have a single head, but it had to have a good shower and other facilities. I wanted less than 50 feet because of how few slips above 45 there were in the Puget Sound. E. Fit and Finish: My wife needed to feel "at home" in the boat, this left the Diesel Duck out because at the time they were still a bit rough. F. I wanted a fiberglass boat, single screw, diesel, wet or dry exhaust, Pilot house, a fly bridge would be nice, but not necessary, active stabilizers with Paravanes as backup (if ocean crossing). At the end it came down to three boats, a Nordhavn 43 a Nordhavn 40 or a Krogen 44. If money hadn't been an issue I would have chosen the Krogen 44. I believe it's a nicer looking boat, is capable of doing the job and has superior living accommodations. Unfortunately I couldn't swing it at 800K. It would have been closer to 1M to completely outfit it. I found the Nordhavn 43 was squeezed so small in the engine room (to get the extra fuel range) that I couldn't move around in it. So that left the Nordhavn 40. I found a slightly used one for $500k and negotiated an offer, brought it to Seattle and put another 30 or 40k into it. We left in August for our 3 year cruise. I'm convinced it was the right course of action. I'll know a lot more in a year or so. If I were making the decision today, I'd also consider a Selene or the newer Diesel Duck. Oh, Seahorse also makes a fiberglass trawler, I'd consider that as well. If you take some of the other issues, like timing and fit and finish out of the equation, I would likely have made a different decision. Hope that helps. Scott Scott Bulger, Alanui, N40II, Seattle WA

I love this site. It would be a wonderful thing to do. We would all gain from that exercise. Douglas On Oct 21, 2007, at 1:14 PM, Scott Bulger wrote: > You know what would be an interesting exercise? For each of us to > share > what key factors was driving our decisions, and how we ended up > choosing the > boats we did. I suspect Robert is like many others who really > don't know > how they will use their boats, but want to cover as many > contingencies as > possible. For instance I'll share my criteria: > > A. Time: I wanted to leave for our journey within 1.5 to 2 > years. We have > a 2 (now lobbying for 3) year cruising window enabled by family > matters > being fairly settled down. When we purchased the boat neither > daughter was > engaged. Both ended up getting married 3 months prior to our > departure. > Parents are healthy or being cared for by other siblings. This meant > ordering or building a boat was out of the question. > > B. Quality: I was willing to pay more for a quality product. I > had a > budget of 500 to 800K and wanted to buy the least amount of boat > that would > do the job. > > C. Capability: I wanted a boat that was ocean capable enabling me to > circumnavigate, even though I reset my goals to more of a coastal > route (due > to my lack of real ocean experience). My rational was a boat > capable of > crossing oceans would have additional engineering and safety margin > that > would benefit my chosen routes > > D. Size: I wanted two staterooms, realizing the number of times > the guest > stateroom would be used would be small. I was willing to have a > single > head, but it had to have a good shower and other facilities. I > wanted less > than 50 feet because of how few slips above 45 there were in the Puget > Sound. > > E. Fit and Finish: My wife needed to feel "at home" in the boat, > this left > the Diesel Duck out because at the time they were still a bit rough. > > F. I wanted a fiberglass boat, single screw, diesel, wet or dry > exhaust, > Pilot house, a fly bridge would be nice, but not necessary, active > stabilizers with Paravanes as backup (if ocean crossing). > > At the end it came down to three boats, a Nordhavn 43 a Nordhavn 40 > or a > Krogen 44. > > If money hadn't been an issue I would have chosen the Krogen 44. I > believe > it's a nicer looking boat, is capable of doing the job and has > superior > living accommodations. Unfortunately I couldn't swing it at 800K. > It would > have been closer to 1M to completely outfit it. I found the > Nordhavn 43 was > squeezed so small in the engine room (to get the extra fuel range) > that I > couldn't move around in it. So that left the Nordhavn 40. I found a > slightly used one for $500k and negotiated an offer, brought it to > Seattle > and put another 30 or 40k into it. We left in August for our 3 > year cruise. > I'm convinced it was the right course of action. I'll know a lot > more in a > year or so. > > If I were making the decision today, I'd also consider a Selene or > the newer > Diesel Duck. Oh, Seahorse also makes a fiberglass trawler, I'd > consider > that as well. > > If you take some of the other issues, like timing and fit and > finish out of > the equation, I would likely have made a different decision. > > Hope that helps. Scott > > Scott Bulger, Alanui, N40II, Seattle WA > _______________________________________________ > http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power > > To unsubscribe send email to > passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word > UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message. > > Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World > Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.

John, It was a bit of an open ended questions. My wife and I intend on coastal cruising for a couple of years learning the systems and seamanship. We plan on circumnavigating at some time after that. Possible a 2-3 year trip. I was just hoping for some answers from folks that have experience and what choices that would make. Thanks for your help. Regards, Robert Miller > From: John Marshall <johnamar1101@gmail.com> > Reply-To: Passagemaking Under Power List > <passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com> > Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 12:25:57 -0700 > To: Passagemaking Under Power List > <passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com> > Subject: Re: [PUP] BSFC (wasKrogen 55 Expedition vs Dashew FPB64) > > That's an incredibly complicated question, Robert. Sort of like > asking what's the best car to buy without giving the respondent any > other information. If you can summarize your planned usage, likely > routes, planned ocean crossings or coastal cruising, etc. etc. etc. > The boat at the top of one list of requirements might be at the > bottom of another. > > John Marshall > > On Oct 21, 2007, at 9:35 AM, Robert Miller wrote: > >> Not to take away from your conversation about the Krogen and >> Dashew, but >> this is my first post to PUP. I would like to know from you what you >> consider the top five passage makers to be and why. My wife and I are >> getting very close to retiring to a boat and intend on extensive >> cruising. >> I have been reading Passage Maker for some years now and would >> really like >> some "real world" help on the purchase of a passage maker. >> Considering >> safety and fuel consumption, I could really use some help. >> >> >> Kindest Regards, >> >> Robert Miller >> >> Imagecom, Inc. >> 3729 East 82nd Place >> Tulsa, Oklahoma 74137 >> robert@imagecominc.com >> 918-704-8233 >> 918-494-0012 FAX >> >> >> >>> From: <Truelove39@aol.com> >>> Reply-To: Passagemaking Under Power List >>> <passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com> >>> Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 08:18:22 EDT >>> To: <mikem@yachtsdelivered.com> >>> Cc: <passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com> >>> Subject: [PUP] BSFC (wasKrogen 55 Expedition vs Dashew FPB64) >>> >>> Hi Mike - >>> >>> I think we need to compare similar horsepower engines for this >>> discussion, >>> and I think 0.275 is pretty optimistic for 400HP. What engine is >>> achieving >>> that figure? >>> >>> Within a reasonable range of HP, 4-stroke engines will have >>> approximately >>> the same BSFC at the same rating, i.e. at max torque, where BSFC >>> is lowest, >>> and at max HP, where it is typically 0.05 lb/hp/hr higher. Same >>> is true for >>> 2-stroke Diesels, which will burn about another 0.04 more than a >>> 4-stroke. >>> >>> Of course MMMV! >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> John >>> "Seahorse" >>> >>> >>>> Smaller engines generally use more fuel per pound of horsepower >>>> per hour. >>> The 60 hp Isuzu 4JB1 uses about .350 pounds per hour per horsepower. >>> A 400 hp engine is more likely to be about .275. >>> >>> This detail is one factor which can not be ignored. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ************************************** See what's new at http:// >>> www.aol.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power >>> >>> To unsubscribe send email to >>> passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word >>> UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message. >>> >>> Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World >>> Productions, >>> formerly known as Trawler World Productions. >> _______________________________________________ >> http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power >> >> To unsubscribe send email to >> passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word >> UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message. >> >> Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World >> Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions. > _______________________________________________ > http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power > > To unsubscribe send email to > passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word > UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message. > > Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World Productions, > formerly known as Trawler World Productions.

Robert: How about a minimum and maximum price? Are you thinking a used boat? Or, a new one? Will it just be the two of you cruising? Or, are you thinking to have crew? My blog update last week happened to talk about "what is the proper boat size?" It may be relevant for you: http://www.nordhavn68.com/aspx/controls/mail/viewItem.aspx/parm1/2244 -Ken Williams Nordhavn68.com, Sans Souci -----Original Message----- From: passagemaking-under-power-bounces@lists.samurai.com [mailto:passagemaking-under-power-bounces@lists.samurai.com] On Behalf Of Robert Miller Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 4:05 PM To: Passagemaking Under Power List Subject: Re: [PUP] BSFC (wasKrogen 55 Expedition vs Dashew FPB64) John, It was a bit of an open ended questions. My wife and I intend on coastal cruising for a couple of years learning the systems and seamanship. We plan on circumnavigating at some time after that. Possible a 2-3 year trip. I was just hoping for some answers from folks that have experience and what choices that would make. Thanks for your help. Regards, Robert Miller

It's a good question, Robert... just trying help by understanding your rough plans. There are good boats from several manufacturers, but prioritizing them depends on usage and needs. How large of a boat (or price) are you looking at? Luxurious accommodations and interior finish (dishwashers, SubZero refrigerators, big screen TV, teak interior, etc. etc. ) or a more basic boat? Air conditioning? Do you plan to liveaboard full time, other than during the circumnav? What about guests or extra crew plans? Two staterooms or three? Or just a couple's boat? Are you stepping up from a smaller power boat or coming from sail? Where are you going to keep boat (availability of slips depending on size various a lot with area) and might drive decisions? (Ten year waits in some areas for certain size slips). From that, maybe we can narrow recommendations down a bit. John On Oct 21, 2007, at 3:05 PM, Robert Miller wrote: > John, > > It was a bit of an open ended questions. My wife and I intend on > coastal > cruising for a couple of years learning the systems and > seamanship. We plan > on circumnavigating at some time after that. Possible a 2-3 year > trip. I > was just hoping for some answers from folks that have experience > and what > choices that would make. > > Thanks for your help. > > Regards, > > Robert Miller > > >> From: John Marshall <johnamar1101@gmail.com> >> Reply-To: Passagemaking Under Power List >> <passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com> >> Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 12:25:57 -0700 >> To: Passagemaking Under Power List >> <passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com> >> Subject: Re: [PUP] BSFC (wasKrogen 55 Expedition vs Dashew FPB64) >> >> That's an incredibly complicated question, Robert. Sort of like >> asking what's the best car to buy without giving the respondent any >> other information. If you can summarize your planned usage, likely >> routes, planned ocean crossings or coastal cruising, etc. etc. etc. >> The boat at the top of one list of requirements might be at the >> bottom of another. >> >> John Marshall >> >> On Oct 21, 2007, at 9:35 AM, Robert Miller wrote: >> >>> Not to take away from your conversation about the Krogen and >>> Dashew, but >>> this is my first post to PUP. I would like to know from you what >>> you >>> consider the top five passage makers to be and why. My wife and >>> I are >>> getting very close to retiring to a boat and intend on extensive >>> cruising. >>> I have been reading Passage Maker for some years now and would >>> really like >>> some "real world" help on the purchase of a passage maker. >>> Considering >>> safety and fuel consumption, I could really use some help. >>> >>> >>> Kindest Regards, >>> >>> Robert Miller >>> >>> Imagecom, Inc. >>> 3729 East 82nd Place >>> Tulsa, Oklahoma 74137 >>> robert@imagecominc.com >>> 918-704-8233 >>> 918-494-0012 FAX >>> >>> >>> >>>> From: <Truelove39@aol.com> >>>> Reply-To: Passagemaking Under Power List >>>> <passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com> >>>> Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 08:18:22 EDT >>>> To: <mikem@yachtsdelivered.com> >>>> Cc: <passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com> >>>> Subject: [PUP] BSFC (wasKrogen 55 Expedition vs Dashew FPB64) >>>> >>>> Hi Mike - >>>> >>>> I think we need to compare similar horsepower engines for this >>>> discussion, >>>> and I think 0.275 is pretty optimistic for 400HP. What engine is >>>> achieving >>>> that figure? >>>> >>>> Within a reasonable range of HP, 4-stroke engines will have >>>> approximately >>>> the same BSFC at the same rating, i.e. at max torque, where BSFC >>>> is lowest, >>>> and at max HP, where it is typically 0.05 lb/hp/hr higher. Same >>>> is true for >>>> 2-stroke Diesels, which will burn about another 0.04 more than a >>>> 4-stroke. >>>> >>>> Of course MMMV! >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> John >>>> "Seahorse" >>>> >>>> >>>>> Smaller engines generally use more fuel per pound of horsepower >>>>> per hour. >>>> The 60 hp Isuzu 4JB1 uses about .350 pounds per hour per >>>> horsepower. >>>> A 400 hp engine is more likely to be about .275. >>>> >>>> This detail is one factor which can not be ignored. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ************************************** See what's new at http:// >>>> www.aol.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power >>>> >>>> To unsubscribe send email to >>>> passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word >>>> UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message. >>>> >>>> Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World >>>> Productions, >>>> formerly known as Trawler World Productions. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power >>> >>> To unsubscribe send email to >>> passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word >>> UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message. >>> >>> Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World >>> Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions. >> _______________________________________________ >> http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power >> >> To unsubscribe send email to >> passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word >> UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message. >> >> Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World >> Productions, >> formerly known as Trawler World Productions. > _______________________________________________ > http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power > > To unsubscribe send email to > passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word > UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message. > > Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World > Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.

Are you on the East Coast or West Coast of the US? What kind of experience do you have? Are you seeking liveaboard comfort as on a Nordhavn or are you inclined to functionality as on a Diesel Duck? Is price relevant? Is size (related to price) relevant? If you are asking List members to craft a response, shouldn't you put forth a modicum of effort? Ron Rogers 1985 Willard 40FBS AIRBORNE ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Miller" <rlmiller3@cox.net> | | It was a bit of an open ended questions. My wife and I intend on coastal | cruising for a couple of years learning the systems and seamanship. We plan | on circumnavigating at some time after that. Possible a 2-3 year trip. I | was just hoping for some answers from folks that have experience and what | choices that would make. | | Thanks for your help. | | Regards, | | Robert Miller