Re: T&T: T&T Fuel polishing Systems
Hello All
I was going to stay out of this but I can't control myself. When I decided to
put in a fuel polishing system the research I did brought me to the
conclusion that simply moving and filtering the fuel does the trick so in my opinion no
algex or debug was needed. The systems I read about all used small 12V fuel
pumps to circulate the fuel. I guess that works but why would that be the pump
of choice unless your not plugged into shore power when at the dock why not go
with a 120V pump. It will move a lot more fuel and probably last longer in
addition to that it can be wired to an automatic timer and set to go on and off
automatically.
The system I built uses a 120V pump that moves about 4 gallons per minute and
two of the large racors piped in parallel to handle the flow. It's controlled
by a timer and the selector valves are color coded so set it and forget it
just have to remember to switch tanks once a week.
Can anyone tell me what the advantage to a 12V pump and Manuel spring timer
is?
Brian Palmetto FL
Brian,
Sure can. Simplicity and economy. The Walbro pump is used in trucks so
it is cheap and designed to last forever. The timer is designed for
spas and saunas, so it is cheap and designed to last forever.
Maurice
-----Original Message-----
From: Trainman484848@aol.com [mailto:Trainman484848@aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, 15 December 2005 16:49
To: trawlers-and-trawlering@lists.samurai.com
Subject: Re: T&T: T&T Fuel polishing Systems
Hello All
<snip> Can anyone tell me what the advantage to a 12V pump and Manuel spring timer is?Brian Palmetto FL
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering
To unsubscribe send email to
trawlers-and-trawlering-request@lists.samurai.com with the word
UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message.
Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
After 20,000 miles of cruising, I've had one bad load of fuel which caused a
filter change roughly every 60 hours until it passed. If you buy your fuel
from the places the commercial and sport fish guys use you won't need fuel
polishers.
The best was to avoid fuel polishers is to use your boat!
Regards....
Phil Rosch
Old Harbor Consulting
M/V "Curmudgeon" MT44 TC
Currently lying Bond Creek, NC
Phil, I cannot second your statement enough! Totally true. With tongue
somewhat lodged in cheek, I notice that those who right about fuel polishing
systems the most seem to spend more time writing to T&T than they do
cruising. Fuel polishing may be useful for those who take on fuel loads and
then let it sit in the tanks for years. But for those of us who actually
cruise our boats, I see no convincing need for polishing. Lest people
presume that polishing systems are mandatory!
Bob Peterson
47' Lien Hwa CMY
"Lopaka Nane"
San Francisco
-----Original Message-----
From: trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces@lists.samurai.com
[mailto:trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces@lists.samurai.com] On Behalf Of
trawlerphil
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2005 4:42 AM
To: trawlers-and-trawlering@lists.samurai.com
Subject: Re: T&T: T&T Fuel polishing Systems
After 20,000 miles of cruising, I've had one bad load of fuel which caused a
filter change roughly every 60 hours until it passed. If you buy your fuel
from the places the commercial and sport fish guys use you won't need fuel
polishers.
The best was to avoid fuel polishers is to use your boat!
Regards....
Phil Rosch
Old Harbor Consulting
M/V "Curmudgeon" MT44 TC
Currently lying Bond Creek, NC
I am not quite as lucky as Bob and am unable to spend as much time on my
boat as I would like (soon, I hope) nor do have the luxury of always
buying my fuel from a known source on longer trips. I am careful, but
sometimes one does not have perfect choices.
So, I have pondered this question as I am currently having to change my
filters a bit too often.
Thinking back to the times when I have had to change filters most often,
it has been when conditions were less than optimal. On one particularly
rough trip, I was showing a bit more vacuum on the second filter than I
wanted by the time I was back into the anchorage. Honestly, this is not
the time I really want to be going through filters. It is okay to
switch one off to the spare in the dual Racor, but I do not really want
to have to be in the engine room manually changing out a filter when I
am getting tossed around. The fuel filtering or polishing system is
purely preventative medicine. Note that the addition of a fuel filtering
system will not guarantee this will not happen, just minimize the chances.
While I am, by no means an expert on this subject, I did decide on a 12
VDC pump rather than a 110VAC pump for the system that I am currently
building.
My thinking is that even with a relatively large AC pump (which does
not appear to be that much less expensive than a DC pump), I really
cannot stir up the fuel in the tanks well enough to "scour" them clean.
With a DC pump, there is no reason that I cannot run dock-side and it is
a simple matter to run while underway when we are getting bounced around
enough to get the junk on the tank bottoms mixed into the fuel. Truth be
told, I could run off the generator while underway but this is something
I seldom do and I did not want to add the requirement to do so in order
to clean my fuel. In addition, it did not seem like good design to
require something to run off dirty fuel while I clean it.
Randy Thompson
M/V Soul Tender
Trainman484848@aol.com wrote:
Hello All
[ deleted ]
Can anyone tell me what the advantage to a 12V pump and Manuel spring timer
is?
Brian Palmetto FL
Seeing all of the listees who are adding filters and polishing pumps to
their fuel systems, leads me to wonder. My entire fuel system is flared
copper tubing, except for a short bit of rubber fuel line at the engines.
Do you guys cut and re-flare your lines yourselves or have some one do it
for you. This has been the primary reason I have not installed bypass
filters in my system, I'm afraid to mess with the copper flares. If you do
it yourselves, can you give advice that will abate my fear I will do major
damage?
Henry Wing
Wilhelmina
Ocean Alexander 38
Ft. Myers
On 12/17/05, Randy Thompson randyt@overthereef.net wrote:
I am not quite as lucky as Bob and am unable to spend as much time on my
boat as I would like (soon, I hope) nor do have the luxury of always
buying my fuel from a known source on longer trips. I am careful, but
sometimes one does not have perfect choices.
So, I have pondered this question as I am currently having to change my
filters a bit too often.
Thinking back to the times when I have had to change filters most often,
it has been when conditions were less than optimal. On one particularly
rough trip, I was showing a bit more vacuum on the second filter than I
wanted by the time I was back into the anchorage. Honestly, this is not
the time I really want to be going through filters. It is okay to
switch one off to the spare in the dual Racor, but I do not really want
to have to be in the engine room manually changing out a filter when I
am getting tossed around. The fuel filtering or polishing system is
purely preventative medicine. Note that the addition of a fuel filtering
system will not guarantee this will not happen, just minimize the chances.
While I am, by no means an expert on this subject, I did decide on a 12
VDC pump rather than a 110VAC pump for the system that I am currently
building.
My thinking is that even with a relatively large AC pump (which does
not appear to be that much less expensive than a DC pump), I really
cannot stir up the fuel in the tanks well enough to "scour" them clean.
With a DC pump, there is no reason that I cannot run dock-side and it is
a simple matter to run while underway when we are getting bounced around
enough to get the junk on the tank bottoms mixed into the fuel. Truth be
told, I could run off the generator while underway but this is something
I seldom do and I did not want to add the requirement to do so in order
to clean my fuel. In addition, it did not seem like good design to
require something to run off dirty fuel while I clean it.
Randy Thompson
M/V Soul Tender
Trainman484848@aol.com wrote:
Hello All
[ deleted ]
Can anyone tell me what the advantage to a 12V pump and Manuel spring
timer
is?
Brian Palmetto FL
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering
To unsubscribe send email to
trawlers-and-trawlering-request@lists.samurai.com with the word
UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message.
Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
Where possible, it is recommended that you switch to USCG approved hose.
Ron Rogers
----- Original Message -----
From: "Henry Wing" <wing15601@gmail.
| Seeing all of the listees who are adding filters and polishing pumps to
| their fuel systems, leads me to wonder. My entire fuel system is flared
| copper tubing, except for a short bit of rubber fuel line at the engines.
| Do you guys cut and re-flare your lines yourselves or have some one do it
| for you. This has been the primary reason I have not installed bypass
| filters in my system, I'm afraid to mess with the copper flares. If you
do
| it yourselves, can you give advice that will abate my fear I will do major
| damage?
--- Ron Rogers rcrogers6@kennett.net wrote:
With regard to copper tubing fuel lines:
Where possible, it is recommended that you switch to
USCG approved hose.
Ron:
Why?
Dan Hall
M/V New Adventure
Hatteras 48 LRC
Sausalito
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
I bought a "double flare" tool suitable for doing brake lines. You can make
a single or double flare (required for brakes). What you have to be careful
if is the Taiwan heads. The threads are slightly different in some cases,
but replacing the copper tubing is simple with a good flare tool.
Regards....
Phil Rosch
Old Harbor Consulting
M/V "Curmudgeon" MT44 TC
Currently lying Bond Creek, NC
Less susceptible to vibration and fire resistant.
Ron
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Hall" skyboltone@yahoo.com
| --- Ron Rogers rcrogers6@kennett.net wrote:
| With regard to copper tubing fuel lines:
|
|
| > Where possible, it is recommended that you switch to
| > USCG approved hose.
|
|
| Ron:
| Why?
On Soul Tender, I ran into the thread issue. The tank fittings are
threaded British Standard Piper Taper (BSPT) and not NPT.
The difference between NPT and BSPT has to do with the angle of the
threads and whether or not the crest of each thread is rounded or
squared off. The number of threads per inch (TPI) is the same and NPT
will thread into BSPT.
I have had a small leak on one of my tanks at the fitting where someone
used an NPT fitting instead of a BSPT fitting.
McMaster-Carr (www.mcmaster.com) carries BSPT to NPT adapters as well as
some BSPT fittings.
Randy
trawlerphil wrote:
I bought a "double flare" tool suitable for doing brake lines. You can make
a single or double flare (required for brakes). What you have to be careful
if is the Taiwan heads. The threads are slightly different in some cases,
but replacing the copper tubing is simple with a good flare tool.
Regards....
Phil Rosch
Old Harbor Consulting
M/V "Curmudgeon" MT44 TC
Currently lying Bond Creek, NC
I came across this bit of information from Alex Marcus in a Passagemaker
magazine article on Selene. Alex Marcus works for ESI (makes clean fuel
systems)
He makes a strong case to stop the practice of using copper tubing for
fuel lines, replacing it with US Coast Guard approved, fire rated hose.
The hose is safer than copper tube which oxidizes diesel fuel, can get
brittle over time and, when bent sharply reduces flow. Copper tube is
not fire rated. Low cost hose unreinforced hose isn't good for fuel
line suction. Hose clamps on pipe barbs easily cut cheap hose.
Using CG approved hydraulic JIC swivel end fittings makes for leak proof
connections.
Alex Marcus also recommends eliminating all pipe fittings from the fuel
system. Pipe fittings simply do not belong on a boat, as they are
tapered, seal through thread deformation and thus are not reusable. The
tapered fittings are not positionable which makes it particularly
difficult when setting up manifolds where you want all the fittings
pointing in some specific direction. Using elbows etc to change the
redirection simply adds more potential leaks to the system. Hydraulic
fittings which seal by o-ring on a metal face are much bettter for this
application. Check out ESI product line at:
http://www.fuelmanagement.com/about_us.htm
Regards
Arild
Arild,
I agree with you and ESI about the copper tubing. We took nearly all of
it off of AKAMA and put on approved hose. As a kid I built a go-cart
and used a bit of copper tubing for fuel line; it work hardened and
cracked in an alarmingly short time.
As for pipe fittings, ESI may be right in theory. But, we used pipe
fittings to build a very complicated manifold and had no trouble
whatsoever. You can in fact tighten the bits to whatever amount it
takes to get the right angles. When setting it up you can test assemble
and still reuse the fittings; the trick is not to tighten anything fully
and locktite it only when you are sure it is right. Of course, now you
can't reuse the fittings, but if you had a manifold welded up you would
not be taking it apart for reuse! The result is the same as a custom
manifold. All the ports on the manifold end in a JIC fitting. We don't
have any weird angles and bends.
ESI used to have (maybe still have) a major competitor that used pipe
fittings (that's where I got them). I suspect that their statement
about pipe fittings is as much Madison Avenue as it is about good
engineering practice.
Cheers,
Maurice
-----Original Message-----
From: Arild Jensen [mailto:elnav@telus.net]
Sent: Monday, 19 December 2005 07:14
To: trawlers-and-trawlering@lists.samurai.com
Subject: T&T: Copper fuel lines vs USCG rated fuel hose
I came across this bit of information from Alex Marcus in a Passagemaker
magazine article on Selene. Alex Marcus works for ESI (makes clean fuel
systems)
He makes a strong case to stop the practice of using copper tubing for
fuel lines, replacing it with US Coast Guard approved, fire rated hose.
The hose is safer than copper tube which oxidizes diesel fuel, can get
brittle over time and, when bent sharply reduces flow. Copper tube is
not fire rated. Low cost hose unreinforced hose isn't good for fuel
line suction. Hose clamps on pipe barbs easily cut cheap hose.
Using CG approved hydraulic JIC swivel end fittings makes for leak proof
connections.
Alex Marcus also recommends eliminating all pipe fittings from the fuel
system. Pipe fittings simply do not belong on a boat, as they are
tapered, seal through thread deformation and thus are not reusable. The
tapered fittings are not positionable which makes it particularly
difficult when setting up manifolds where you want all the fittings
pointing in some specific direction. Using elbows etc to change the
redirection simply adds more potential leaks to the system. Hydraulic
fittings which seal by o-ring on a metal face are much bettter for this
application. Check out ESI product line at:
http://www.fuelmanagement.com/about_us.htm
Regards
Arild
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering
To unsubscribe send email to
trawlers-and-trawlering-request@lists.samurai.com with the word
UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message.
Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
-----Original Message-----
From: Maurice & Louise-Ann on AKAMA [mailto:nunas@nunas.com]
As for pipe fittings, ESI may be right in theory. But, we used pipe
fittings . . .
snip<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
ESI used to have (maybe still have) a major competitor that used pipe
fittings (that's where I got them). I suspect that their statement
about pipe fittings is as much Madison Avenue as it is about good
engineering practice.
REPLY
I think it depends on which fittings you use. Straight pipe to hose
barbs do not pose a problem. Street elbows and plain Ells do require
care. I once worked for a gas pipe fitter and was taught to use lots of
pipe compound or Teflon tape to compensate for lack of torque when the
ells had to point a certain way but that was not fully tight.
I believe this is bad practice.
In addition when materials are mixed, some brass fittings will crack
over time. It's more of a problem when the boats are stored on land
during winter in northern climates. The bitter cold will cause materials
with varying expansion coefficients to over stress and this sometimes
creates cracks.
Arild
If you guys want to really do it right, forget all the standard stuff and go
with Swagelock fittings. http://www.swagelock.com/products.htm. You can
build some really nice manifolds using their compression fittings and port
connectors. This is the stuff they use on NASA's rockets, space shuttle,
etc. There is another company that makes a similar quality fitting system,
but I can't remember their name right off. I do agree with getting rid of
copper and replacing it with USCG approved fuel hose, and have been doing
just that on my boat.
On the Krogen, I had a tough time working with the little manifold that
selects the fuel feeds to the genset and main. Seemed to be a crazy mix of
tapered pipe fittings and straight threads as well. I finally tossed the
whole thing and started from scratch with new stuff.
Keith
Never test the depth of the water with both feet.
----- Original Message -----
From: Maurice & Louise-Ann on AKAMA [mailto:nunas@nunas.com]
As for pipe fittings, ESI may be right in theory. But, we used pipe
fittings . . .
snip<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
ESI used to have (maybe still have) a major competitor that used pipe
fittings (that's where I got them). I suspect that their statement
about pipe fittings is as much Madison Avenue as it is about good
engineering practice.
"Keith" keith@anastasia3.com writes:
If you guys want to really do it right, forget all the standard stuff and go
with Swagelock fittings. http://www.swagelock.com/products.htm. You can
build some really nice manifolds using their compression fittings and port
connectors. This is the stuff they use on NASA's rockets, space shuttle,
etc. There is another company that makes a similar quality fitting system,
but I can't remember their name right off. I do agree with getting rid of
copper and replacing it with USCG approved fuel hose, and have been doing
just that on my boat.
I strongly second this. I've been working with Swagelok fittings for thirty
years, and they are excellent. The thing I like best is that the joints can
be very easily disassembled and reassembled with no compromise in their
integrity. On "Island Eagle", every tubing connection (air lines, hydraulic
steering, even some pressure water) is done with Swagelok. While the price is
slightly higher than other options, these really are worth the money.
Scott Welch
"Island Eagle"
www.islandeagle.net
"The person who makes no mistakes usually doesn't make anything"
This is an important point. Home Debit for example sells two grades of
copper tubing; one being thicker walled than the other. I wonder if their
are grades of copper tubing that are more malleable than other?
Ron Rogers
David wrote:
Skooch is old (25 years) and has all copper lines for fuel and water. I
carry flare fittings that would make a hardware store proud. I also carry
copper tubing (thick wall like Hatteras used) and the various tools.
Hatteras no longer uses copper, they use hose for fuel and water.