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Cruising America's Great Loop and other inland routes
View all threadsRe: GL: Barrier coat, heavy oxidation and fading
I have off-white gelcoat, easier to restore than dark. I have sanded only by hand, and then used aytomotive parts store polish, also by hand. A little labor intensive, but for a 25' boat, not too bad.
Aoutomotive rubbing compound is for auto paints, which are harder than gelcoat. I have never ben successful with this stuff on boats
Sand carefully, don't break thru edges or get too aggressive. Just clean off the surface oxidation layer.
Phil
cirmiger@sbcglobal.net wrote:
Thanks Phil,
Did you hand sand the finish as well as polish it? Were you working with a dark finish when you did this?
Chad
----- Original Message -----
From: Phil Little
To: cirmiger@sbcglobal.net
Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 11:46 PM
Subject: Re: GL: Barrier coat, heavy oxidation and fading
Sand with 1000 grit wet sandpaper. Then polish withautomobile polish. Try hand polishing rather than machine to avoid any "burning" of finish. This is a very low cost method, and it will work much better than rubbing compound. Do not use rubbing compound at all. It is too abrasive, and does not seem to work on gelcoat.
Phil Little
cirmiger@sbcglobal.net wrote:
I bought a '84 Rosborough 28 in June to do the GL in 2006. She is in serious
need of some TLC. I have sanded the bottom to prep it for a barrier coat.
I've used Interlux in the past but I'd like to know if someone has another
suggestion. The topsides are navy blue and have a severe case of oxidation
and fading. I bought a pint of 3M "Super Duty" rubbing compound and did a
test patch by hand. The result is a mottled color and less than "Super". I'm
thinking that I'll need a stronger compound and my buffer to get the job done.
Any and all advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks, Chad & Kay Irmiger, Gypsy
Blue
Having spent too may years in the automotive
business and just starting to really understand
how gelcoats on most boats work and are
applied to the surface of fiberglass on boats,
I used my knowledge of paint and surfaces.
Out of that I had concluded that polishing
compound is too light and rubbing compound
is too harsh, In order to take care of the
extreme oxidation that occurs in the salt
water/air environment, it would take a product
that virtually eliminates the oxidation and actually
cleans AND protects the very fragile gelcoat.
Gel coat is like the clear coat of new automobile
finishes and is extremely fragile. Perhaps even more
fragile, I do not know. I am certain there is an
engineering type who can explain it.
However, there is a newer product for automobile
finishes that works like magic on gelcoats
and can work in direct sunlight. It is a product
that has not been tested on marine gelcoats
and works without all the intense hand rubbing
required with polishing compound and even less
final hand polishing.
The product is Reflections from Mother's, the
automotive polish. It also polishes just like an
automotive polish and it cleans without any apparent
damage to the gelcoat. Like the automotive usage,
it leaves a "wet look" to the finish, especially a
darker colored car. On automobiles, it leaves fabulous
finish, on white gelcoat, it still leaves a wet look
like you would want on an automobile.
How good is this stuff?
I told;d a few of the neighbors around here in
Huntington Harbor here in Southern California
and another neighbor who went to buy some
because he saw the results on a couple of his
neighbor's boats and could not find any in the
local automobile parts stores. He calls it the latest
secret here in Southern California for boats and cars.
He swears by it for his two Porsches and his 42 foot
Grand Banks. He was just trying to purchase some
additional and was surprised that it was not any at
the
three local national automotive chain stores.
Again, it's called Reflections. Do not ruin your
gelcoat
by using compound. It removes the gelcoat or actually
polishes holes in the gelcoat. It will eventually
come back and bite you by actually penetrating the
barrier that gelcoats present. Using Reflections
actually removes the oxidation coating and allows
a weather oxidized gelcoat to be effective again.
Try it.
It does not require lots of arm power or even a
buffer to apply or take off. It also works in
direct sunlight.
Try it on a car finish and you will not wax your car
any more. The days of toiling to have a wet look on
your car and boat finish are over with.
I am not associated with Mother's or any automobile
companies any longer. Just a well satisfied user.
Regards,
Rick Redfern
714.840.4737
Advanzio Development LLC
Color management for the person
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Want more info? Go to:
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After i bought a 10 year old comand-bridge bayliner w/dark blue hull that
was terrably faded i tried everything mentioned so far except
"reflections".[i will try this on my car] A co-worker at TWA suggested that
i try PENETROL ,its great,found at most paint stores,just follow directions
on can .Shady area is best.Next time i do it i will test using "reflections"
over it Mike Bowers
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Redfern" advanzio@yahoo.com
To: "Phil Little" plittle2005@yahoo.com; cirmiger@sbcglobal.net;
great-loop@lists.samurai.com
Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 9:35 PM
Subject: Re: GL: Barrier coat, heavy oxidation and fading
Out of that I had concluded that polishing
compound is too light and rubbing compound
is to---
The product is Reflections from Mother's, the
automotive polish. It also polishes just like---
Regards,
Rick Redfern
714.840.4737
FWIW, Another correspondent, perhaps on the T&T List, said that after a
season, the Penetrol started to flake off and that which didn't was very
difficult to remove.
Ron Rogers
----- Original Message -----
From: "mcbowers" mcbowers86@comcast.net
| A co-worker at TWA suggested that
| i try PENETROL ,its great,found at most paint stores,just follow
directions
| on can .Shady area is best.Next time i do it i will test using
"reflections"
| over it Mike Bowers
Okay, since one of you wants to influence people
and help them screw up their gelcoats, how about
those who want to find out more about penetrol
should go to:
http://www.flood.com/Flood/CustomerSupport/FAQ/DIY/Penetrol+FAQ.htm
This is great stuff if you are painting metal.
Read the instructions carefully.
Reminds me of the old adage about straining antifreeze
through a loaf of bread to take out the bad stuff that
can
kill you. A blind buddy told me about it.
Think about the punch line if you are confused.
Rick Redfern
--- Ron Rogers rcrogers6@kennett.net wrote:
FWIW, Another correspondent, perhaps on the T&T
List, said that after a
season, the Penetrol started to flake off and that
which didn't was very
difficult to remove.
Ron Rogers
----- Original Message -----
From: "mcbowers" mcbowers86@comcast.net
| A co-worker at TWA suggested that
| i try PENETROL ,its great,found at most paint
stores,just follow
directions
| on can .Shady area is best.Next time i do it i
will test using
"reflections"
| over it Mike Bowers
Rick,
Do you read email before you respond? My email was a negative report. Don't
include me in your mocking email.
Ron Rogers
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Redfern" advanzio@yahoo.com
To: "Ron Rogers" rcrogers6@kennett.net; great-loop@lists.samurai.com
| Okay, since one of you wants to influence people
| and help them screw up their gelcoats, how about
| those who want to find out more about penetrol
| should go to:
| http://www.flood.com/Flood/CustomerSupport/FAQ/DIY/Penetrol+FAQ.htm
|
| This is great stuff if you are painting metal.
| Read the instructions carefully.
|
| Reminds me of the old adage about straining antifreeze
| through a loaf of bread to take out the bad stuff that
| can
| kill you. A blind buddy told me about it.
|
| Think about the punch line if you are confused.
'Lo All,
Someone prior to the previous owners (POs) of the Celestial put
Penetrol onto the hull gelcoat. The POs pointed it out to us when we
were looking at the boat, thinking about buying her. He wanted us to
know without a doubt that he was not the one who had put it on. They
had owned the boat for only about 6 months. They live on a backwater
slough and thought they had enough depth for her, but did not and did
not want to have to keep her in a marina. The boat at that time had
fairly visible black splotches where the Penetrol had molded in the
pores of the gelcoat. After buying the Celestial, we paid a premium
price to get it removed, but it remained, almost as bad as before.
Over time, the Penetrol/mold has faded to where I can't see it anymore.
I agree with Ron - it is not good for use as a "topcoater" or
whatever to bring back the shine.
The Flood webpage does not recommend it for use on gelcoat, either,
as far as I could find. However, it most definitely has has been used
by unscrupulous or duped folks as a cure-all for oxidized gelcoat.
Take care and be safe.
Wayne
M/V Celestial
Albin43 Sundeck
rick & ron i mis-spoke when i said "penetrol" i should have said "MARINE
PENETROL" This is probably were a lot of the confusion comes from.It not my
intent to cause a problem- i would never recomend something i haven't used[i
have applied it every 2 years since 1996 and will again-next
year]-Rick -thanks for looking up the web site BUT u were looking at
"Interior penetrol"--for those interested click on penetrol click on
Exterior &click again on MARINE , or their hotline is 800-321-3444--Sorry
for any confusion i have caused mike bowers
From: "Rick Redfern" advanzio@yahoo.com
To: "Ron Rogers" rcrogers6@kennett.net; great-loop@lists.samurai.com
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 2:59 PM
Subject: Re: GL: Barrier coat, heavy oxidation and fading
Okay, since one of you wants to----------- find out more about penetrol
should go to:
http://www.flood.com/Flood/CustomerSupport/FAQ/DIY/Penetrol+FAQ.htm
This is great stuff if --------
Read the instructions careful
Think about the punch line if you are confused.
Rick Redfern
--- Ron Rogers rcrogers6@kennett.net wrote:
Penetrol started to flake off -------
Ron Rogers
----- Original Message -----
From: "mcbowers" mcbowers86@comcast.net
I went to the website and the Marine Penetrol product description does not
mention anywhere - it is a paint additive and claims deep penetration in
wood.
It cannot be recommended for use on gelcoat.
Ron Rogers
Rick:
Been there, done that. Painted with lacquer, alkyd enamel, 2-part polyurethanes (Centari and Imron) many years ago. I'm sure the technology has changed since then.
But one thing has not changed: you can't paint over a silicone-contaminated surface with the above type of paints.
So the one thing you better not do is use a silicone-containing substance on a surface you might want to paint.
If Reflections contains silicones, then a person should test it on a surface that will not require repainting.
Also, there seems to be agreement on difficulty of application and removal of "Mop and Glo" type coatings. I tried them too, and got splotchy finish, and still have not been able to remove.
Bottom line: I would stay away from silicones and/or coatings and stick to non-silicone polish (and light sanding if the oxidation is really bad).
My $.02 worth. Phil Little
Rick Redfern advanzio@yahoo.com wrote:
--- Phil Little
wrote:
Some of these "restoration" products contain
silicones. WARNING: silcones make fiberglass
UNPAINTABLE!! and they cannot be completely removed.
The surface will pinhole and fisheye.
Phil:
Now you have crossed into an an area where I consider
myself an expert. Painting and surfaces of anything
that
will be painted. You are absolutely correct about
fisheyes
and the myriad of things that can screw up a paint
job.
However, do you know if Reflections contains
silicones?
No, you do not. However, Reflections does have
silicones
as do 99% of all polishes ans wax preparation products
on the market.
Now I will deal with the technical aspects of using
sandpaper
on any surface. It actually is quite abrasive and for
most
situations beyond what is actually needed. Even 1000
grit
sandpaper is extreme for what is required - even for
repainting.
Am I crazy? No, just a realistic person who has
probably
painted more cars that most people have ever applied
wax to.
My favorite starter to remove wax, polish and a
majority of the
oxidation prior to painting was Tide. Yes, every day
detergent
Tide. That was followed by PrepSol. A solvent
manufactured
for the automotive industry for the express purpose of
removing anything such as silicone or other items that
would
cause the pain not to adhere to the prepped surface.
Using something like 400 grit sandpaper was done to
give
the next application of primer a surface to adhere to.
Also
primer was to give the first coat of paint a single
color
to adhere to allow the subsequent layers to have a
single
shade so the car would not have a zebra look of
different
shades. You would be surprised at how many cars
today have two or three different shades of the same
color because of poor prep on the owner's part.
You are using lacquer paint if do not want to
or do not have the access to a fantastic paint booth
so
you can use enamel or transport enamel, you are more
or
less relegated to using lacquer in several coats at
different times. There are very few paint booths that
can accommodate a boat of any consequential size.
My own paint booth was designed in such a way that all
the air that came into the booth was filtered through
water
before it got into the booth. I won't go into how much
it cost or how much we charged for a full repaint.
Suffice it to say it was not inexpensive.
Getting back on subject, boats.
Use a strong detergent such as Tide to remove a lot of
the oxidation. Then you can use a polish such as
Reflections.
Reflections will handle "normal" oxidation and you can
follow
it up a top coat with another product wax such as
a carnuba wax or maybe even Reflections wax.
I just spoke with Phil, the chemist at Mothers, and he
stated
that like me, he would never use sandpaper on a
gelcoat
because it is too extreme and would damage the
gelcoat.
Mothers is local as they are also located here in
Huntington Beach. Want the number, let me know.
Regards,
Rick Redfern
714.840.4737