Time of death-Again
T=0 could be a recent supernova for a secular short measurement span considering the life span of Earth.
OR
T=0 could also be a local solar system event that is easily determinable on Earth.
For someone measuring events on Earth a million years from now, give or take a ppm :-) or they may not care!
I think this is a sort of relativity question, isn't it? That is, you just have to pick some place/time, and reference everything else to that. So which astronomical event do you want use as your reference (e.g. a T=0 epoch)and is it sufficiently well determined that you can figure it out later? It's all well and good, for instance, to use noon on January 1st, 1900 or something as your time zero, but that's hardly a universally available reference point.
--
Raj, VU2ZAP
Bangalore, India.
If a far future observer was to make any sense of a date, quite
a lot would have to be known about the culture, including how to
read its markings.
It would be impractical to carve a map of the sky showing the
location of a stellar beacon on each tombstone, and then adding
some number of rotations of the Earth around the sun to it. How
would you describe leap seconds? Or seconds?
The use of BC and AD pervades our culture. What's needed is a
Rosetta Stone that has a lengthy description of the relation of
astronomical events to the year 0, after first describing the
time system (Y, M, D, H, M, S). Perhaps radioactive dating by
isotope ratios would be easier than describing years, using a
stellar event to pin down the base ratio to absolute time.
Any understanding of a culture includes an understanding of its
religions. Perhaps the Mayan calendar would be discovered first.
Too bad it stops in December 2012.
Bill Hawkins
-----Original Message-----
From: Raj
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 9:17 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Time of death-Again
T=0 could be a recent supernova for a secular short measurement span
considering the life span of Earth.
OR
T=0 could also be a local solar system event that is easily determinable on
Earth.
For someone measuring events on Earth a million years from now, give or take
a ppm :-) or they may not care!
I think this is a sort of relativity question, isn't it? That is, you just
have to pick some place/time, and reference everything else to that. So
which astronomical event do you want use as your reference (e.g. a T=0
epoch)and is it sufficiently well determined that you can figure it out
later? It's all well and good, for instance, to use noon on January 1st,
1900 or something as your time zero, but that's hardly a universally
available reference point.
--
Raj, VU2ZAP
Bangalore, India.
On 29 October 2010 03:00, Marshall Eubanks tme@americafree.tv wrote:
On Oct 28, 2010, at 9:30 AM, jimlux wrote:
Steve Rooke wrote:
One thing we should bear in mind that our tombstone timestamp should
have things like the timezone, and calendar in use, references, such
that future people can determine the exact point in time of our death.
In fact, basing the timestamp on some true reference point would
better than about 2000 years after some event happened on earth as
archaeologists from other words coming to the Earth in the future
would be left to figure out this arbitrary time event. I would propose
that we relate the year portion (which is the LSB and most important)
to some celestial event thereby making it possible to document this
easily for future life-forms to determine. The whole year/date thing
really should be made secular as there is no place for religion in the
governance of society.
Steve
Is this not the same problem we all face when specifying an absolute time? Is it TAI? GPS? UTC? etc.
And, then, if you are moving, the local time offsettime relative to some reference might be different at different times.
I think this is a sort of relativity question, isn't it? That is, you just have to pick some place/time, and reference everything else to that. So which astronomical event do you want use as your reference (e.g. a T=0 epoch)and is it sufficiently well determined that you can figure it out later? It's all well and good, for instance, to use noon on January 1st, 1900 or something as your time zero, but that's hardly a universally available reference point.
Pulsar timing. List 20 or so millisecond pulsars with their current period (don't forget to include information on the definition of the second!) and their spin down rate, and you should be able to time things for some millions of years (to some level). This was the technique used in the Voyager Golden Record, except we didn't know about millisecond pulsars back then.
I would also include the spin axis offsets and rotational period of the Earth and Mars, which would also be useful and would make future
geophysicists happy.
Or how about the alignment of a large number of the planets/sun/moon
that would only occur once in a blue moon but has occurred at some
point in the, hopefully, near lifetime of this planet. It would then
be possible to depict this event symbolically on the tombstone.
Steve
Regards
Marshall
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--
Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD
The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once.
- Einstein
Hi Bill:
The Mayan calendar does not stop in 2012, only the short hand year
notation.
It's just like when our calendar stopped at 12/31/99, i.e the next year
was ZERO (aka Y2K)!
See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayan_calender
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_phenomenon
Have Fun,
Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
Bill Hawkins wrote:
If a far future observer was to make any sense of a date, quite
a lot would have to be known about the culture, including how to
read its markings.
It would be impractical to carve a map of the sky showing the
location of a stellar beacon on each tombstone, and then adding
some number of rotations of the Earth around the sun to it. How
would you describe leap seconds? Or seconds?
The use of BC and AD pervades our culture. What's needed is a
Rosetta Stone that has a lengthy description of the relation of
astronomical events to the year 0, after first describing the
time system (Y, M, D, H, M, S). Perhaps radioactive dating by
isotope ratios would be easier than describing years, using a
stellar event to pin down the base ratio to absolute time.
Any understanding of a culture includes an understanding of its
religions. Perhaps the Mayan calendar would be discovered first.
Too bad it stops in December 2012.
Bill Hawkins
-----Original Message-----
From: Raj
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 9:17 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Time of death-Again
T=0 could be a recent supernova for a secular short measurement span
considering the life span of Earth.
OR
T=0 could also be a local solar system event that is easily determinable on
Earth.
For someone measuring events on Earth a million years from now, give or take
a ppm :-) or they may not care!
I think this is a sort of relativity question, isn't it? That is, you just
have to pick some place/time, and reference everything else to that. So
which astronomical event do you want use as your reference (e.g. a T=0
epoch)and is it sufficiently well determined that you can figure it out
later? It's all well and good, for instance, to use noon on January 1st,
1900 or something as your time zero, but that's hardly a universally
available reference point.
--
Have Fun,
Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
Hi group,
The most absolute remarkable event in our Universe is the Big Bang, and it
seems to be pretty well defined in time. It's rather sad that we're unable
to relate this event to our usual timescales (with a better precision than
several 10^9 years...!)
That would make a nice "absolute zero" for time, at least in our tiny
universe.
Jean-Louis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brooke Clarke" brooke95482@att.net
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 4:47 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Absolute time (was Time of death-Again)
Hi Bill:
The Mayan calendar does not stop in 2012, only the short hand year
notation.
It's just like when our calendar stopped at 12/31/99, i.e the next year
was ZERO (aka Y2K)!
See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayan_calender
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_phenomenon
Have Fun,
Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
Bill Hawkins wrote:
If a far future observer was to make any sense of a date, quite
a lot would have to be known about the culture, including how to
read its markings.
It would be impractical to carve a map of the sky showing the
location of a stellar beacon on each tombstone, and then adding
some number of rotations of the Earth around the sun to it. How
would you describe leap seconds? Or seconds?
The use of BC and AD pervades our culture. What's needed is a
Rosetta Stone that has a lengthy description of the relation of
astronomical events to the year 0, after first describing the
time system (Y, M, D, H, M, S). Perhaps radioactive dating by
isotope ratios would be easier than describing years, using a
stellar event to pin down the base ratio to absolute time.
Any understanding of a culture includes an understanding of its
religions. Perhaps the Mayan calendar would be discovered first.
Too bad it stops in December 2012.
Bill Hawkins
-----Original Message-----
From: Raj
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 9:17 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Time of death-Again
T=0 could be a recent supernova for a secular short measurement span
considering the life span of Earth.
OR
T=0 could also be a local solar system event that is easily determinable
on
Earth.
For someone measuring events on Earth a million years from now, give or
take
a ppm :-) or they may not care!
I think this is a sort of relativity question, isn't it? That is, you
just
have to pick some place/time, and reference everything else to that. So
which astronomical event do you want use as your reference (e.g. a T=0
epoch)and is it sufficiently well determined that you can figure it out
later? It's all well and good, for instance, to use noon on January 1st,
1900 or something as your time zero, but that's hardly a universally
available reference point.
--
Have Fun,
Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
I would suggest using the time this thread started because time seems to be
dragging on since then.
John
From: "Jean-Louis Oneto" Jean-Louis.Oneto@obs-azur.fr
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 1:17 PM
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Absolute time (was Time of death-Again)
Hi group,
The most absolute remarkable event in our Universe is the Big Bang, and
it seems to be pretty well defined in time. It's rather sad that we're
unable to relate this event to our usual timescales (with a better
precision than several 10^9 years...!)
That would make a nice "absolute zero" for time, at least in our tiny
universe.
Jean-Louis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brooke Clarke" brooke95482@att.net
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 4:47 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Absolute time (was Time of death-Again)
Hi Bill:
The Mayan calendar does not stop in 2012, only the short hand year
notation.
It's just like when our calendar stopped at 12/31/99, i.e the next year
was ZERO (aka Y2K)!
See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayan_calender
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_phenomenon
Have Fun,
Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
Bill Hawkins wrote:
If a far future observer was to make any sense of a date, quite
a lot would have to be known about the culture, including how to
read its markings.
It would be impractical to carve a map of the sky showing the
location of a stellar beacon on each tombstone, and then adding
some number of rotations of the Earth around the sun to it. How
would you describe leap seconds? Or seconds?
The use of BC and AD pervades our culture. What's needed is a
Rosetta Stone that has a lengthy description of the relation of
astronomical events to the year 0, after first describing the
time system (Y, M, D, H, M, S). Perhaps radioactive dating by
isotope ratios would be easier than describing years, using a
stellar event to pin down the base ratio to absolute time.
Any understanding of a culture includes an understanding of its
religions. Perhaps the Mayan calendar would be discovered first.
Too bad it stops in December 2012.
Bill Hawkins
-----Original Message-----
From: Raj
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 9:17 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Time of death-Again
T=0 could be a recent supernova for a secular short measurement span
considering the life span of Earth.
OR
T=0 could also be a local solar system event that is easily determinable
on
Earth.
For someone measuring events on Earth a million years from now, give or
take
a ppm :-) or they may not care!
I think this is a sort of relativity question, isn't it? That is, you
just
have to pick some place/time, and reference everything else to that. So
which astronomical event do you want use as your reference (e.g. a T=0
epoch)and is it sufficiently well determined that you can figure it out
later? It's all well and good, for instance, to use noon on January
1st,
1900 or something as your time zero, but that's hardly a universally
available reference point.
--
Have Fun,
Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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On Oct 28, 2010, at 11:33 AM, Bill Hawkins wrote:
If a far future observer was to make any sense of a date, quite
a lot would have to be known about the culture, including how to
read its markings.
It would be impractical to carve a map of the sky showing the
location of a stellar beacon on each tombstone, and then adding
some number of rotations of the Earth around the sun to it. How
would you describe leap seconds? Or seconds?
All of that is irrelevant IMHO. You are saying that something happened on this date, and trying to give sufficient information so
that people (?) much later could independently determine the elapsed (TAI) time.
The best behaved msec pulsars - see http://arxiv.org/pdf/1003.0418 and http://arxiv.org/pdf/0908.0244 and many other papers - have
period dot accuracies on the order of 10^-20 s/s, and no real evidence for a period double dot (acceleration). There are Pulsar glitches
which might mess up any individual pulsar, so doing an array would be better than doing one.
1 Million Years (T) is ~ 3 x 10^13 seconds and order 10^16 periods, so the period error would
be order sigma(P) ~ T * sigma(P_dot) ~ 3 x 10^-7 seconds in that time, so
(if they could do radio or X ray astronomy) they should be able to figure out which pulsars then correspond to the ones now. (Of course,
giving coordinates would help a lot there.)
WHo knows what the timing error would be after that long, but if I am doing my math correctly it would be order(years). That's a lot worse than
a Hydrogen maser would do, but it would require no maintenance of equipment (or civilization) during the intervening period.
Regards
Marshall
The use of BC and AD pervades our culture. What's needed is a
Rosetta Stone that has a lengthy description of the relation of
astronomical events to the year 0, after first describing the
time system (Y, M, D, H, M, S). Perhaps radioactive dating by
isotope ratios would be easier than describing years, using a
stellar event to pin down the base ratio to absolute time.
Any understanding of a culture includes an understanding of its
religions. Perhaps the Mayan calendar would be discovered first.
Too bad it stops in December 2012.
It's cyclical, with multiple cycles embedded in each other. The long count is 144,000 days, and will roll over December 20, 2012, ending the
13th b'ak'tun. The next day is just the first day of the 14th b'ak'tun.
Bill Hawkins
-----Original Message-----
From: Raj
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 9:17 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Time of death-Again
T=0 could be a recent supernova for a secular short measurement span
considering the life span of Earth.
OR
T=0 could also be a local solar system event that is easily determinable on
Earth.
For someone measuring events on Earth a million years from now, give or take
a ppm :-) or they may not care!
I think this is a sort of relativity question, isn't it? That is, you just
have to pick some place/time, and reference everything else to that. So
which astronomical event do you want use as your reference (e.g. a T=0
epoch)and is it sufficiently well determined that you can figure it out
later? It's all well and good, for instance, to use noon on January 1st,
1900 or something as your time zero, but that's hardly a universally
available reference point.
--
Raj, VU2ZAP
Bangalore, India.
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and follow the instructions there.
I'm just glad this discussion isn't taking place on one of my lists.
Regards.
Max. K 4 O D S.
Email: max@maxsmusicplace.com
Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net
Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net
Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com
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----- Original Message -----
From: "WB6BNQ" wb6bnq@cox.net
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 5:32 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Time of death-Again
Arnold,
I agree completely ! This is really getting out of hand with no end in
sight.
Bill....WB6BNQ
Arnold Tibus wrote:
Fellow time nut(s),
isn't this not going too far, going to be disgusting and perhaps
wounding feelings?
No better things in mind? Could we stop this and come back to the
roots,talk and discuss about real physical and technical time concerning
points instead? It's not everybody's humor to philosophize about wars,
H-bombs, Electric Chairs etc. and what is the effective way to kill life
faster...
This is my opinion and perhaps I am not alone. Am I wrong?
Regards,
Arnold
Am 28.10.2010 02:47, schrieb William H. Fite:
Mein Fuhrer, I can valk...er...I can time.
On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 6:51 PM, Perry Sandeen sandeenpa@yahoo.com
wrote:
Gents,
Wrote: < If you want a sub-microsecond time of death, sit on a bomb
like
Major T. J. "King" Kong in "Dr. Strangelove," and get your friends to
time
and triangulate the prompt radiation. That should be good to a few
10's of
nanoseconds.
Absolutely Not So!
The H-Bombs are slowed by parachutes so the bomber can get away. The
outside temperature for a B-52 at operating altitude over Russia would
likely be at least minus 60 degrees F.
Major T, since he was wearing an indoor uniform, would become a solid
block
of ice before the bomb went off so his TOD has a variance of time
between
when became a solid chunk of ice and the time of instant defrosting.
This
could be 30 to 60 seconds. Totally un-acceptable accuracy for even
the
cadet grade newbe time-nut ;)
Why, anyone accepting such an error would have to answer to the Coca
Cola
company distributor at Burpelson Air Force Base.
Carpay Diem, Carpell Tunnel-Whatever
Regards,
Perrier
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How about the crab supernova.
Regards.
Max. K 4 O D S.
Email: max@maxsmusicplace.com
Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net
Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net
Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com
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----- Original Message -----
From: "jimlux" jimlux@earthlink.net
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 8:30 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Time of death-Again
Steve Rooke wrote:
One thing we should bear in mind that our tombstone timestamp should
have things like the timezone, and calendar in use, references, such
that future people can determine the exact point in time of our death.
In fact, basing the timestamp on some true reference point would
better than about 2000 years after some event happened on earth as
archaeologists from other words coming to the Earth in the future
would be left to figure out this arbitrary time event. I would propose
that we relate the year portion (which is the LSB and most important)
to some celestial event thereby making it possible to document this
easily for future life-forms to determine. The whole year/date thing
really should be made secular as there is no place for religion in the
governance of society.
Steve
Is this not the same problem we all face when specifying an absolute time?
Is it TAI? GPS? UTC? etc.
And, then, if you are moving, the local time offsettime relative to some
reference might be different at different times.
I think this is a sort of relativity question, isn't it? That is, you
just have to pick some place/time, and reference everything else to that.
So which astronomical event do you want use as your reference (e.g. a T=0
epoch)and is it sufficiently well determined that you can figure it out
later? It's all well and good, for instance, to use noon on January 1st,
1900 or something as your time zero, but that's hardly a universally
available reference point.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
On Oct 28, 2010, at 2:05 PM, Max Robinson wrote:
How about the crab supernova.
Msec pulsars are much more stable - see http://arxiv.org/pdf/0911.5534 for some comparisons.
Regards
Marshall
Regards.
Max. K 4 O D S.
Email: max@maxsmusicplace.com
Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net
Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net
Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com
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----- Original Message ----- From: "jimlux" jimlux@earthlink.net
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 8:30 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Time of death-Again
Steve Rooke wrote:
One thing we should bear in mind that our tombstone timestamp should
have things like the timezone, and calendar in use, references, such
that future people can determine the exact point in time of our death.
In fact, basing the timestamp on some true reference point would
better than about 2000 years after some event happened on earth as
archaeologists from other words coming to the Earth in the future
would be left to figure out this arbitrary time event. I would propose
that we relate the year portion (which is the LSB and most important)
to some celestial event thereby making it possible to document this
easily for future life-forms to determine. The whole year/date thing
really should be made secular as there is no place for religion in the
governance of society.
Steve
Is this not the same problem we all face when specifying an absolute time? Is it TAI? GPS? UTC? etc.
And, then, if you are moving, the local time offsettime relative to some reference might be different at different times.
I think this is a sort of relativity question, isn't it? That is, you just have to pick some place/time, and reference everything else to that. So which astronomical event do you want use as your reference (e.g. a T=0 epoch)and is it sufficiently well determined that you can figure it out later? It's all well and good, for instance, to use noon on January 1st, 1900 or something as your time zero, but that's hardly a universally available reference point.
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To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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