Old Crystal.
I just took a quick look. I have four of these ovens, definitely marked
for the HP5110A. One is partly disassembled so the crystal can be
pulled. It looks very much like the one in the picture that Jeremy put
up. There are two quite large mica caps mounted on a disc-shaped board
along with the crystal's (two) soldered leads. That's all that goes
inside the oven. The envelope definitely looks like an octal tube type,
and the crystal is double-convex - you can see it edge-on, or tell by
looking at your reflection from either side. The surfaces appear to be
gold plated. The bulb of this one appears marked with "35" and "01"
(or"10").
So, if you look up the HP51110A, you'll find a workable oscillator circuit.
Ed
I didn't realize before that there was a picture attached in the OP.
That's a lot different from the HP ones. The crystal element looks more
like those in regular packages, but on the large side, due to the low
frequency. If it's a 1 MHz, then you should be able to find plenty of
representative example oscillator circuits around that frequency. It may
be just a regular type, not for an OCXO application, but fancy glass
packaged because of its size.
Ed
Hi,
On 2021-03-01 01:23, Attila Kinali wrote:
On Sun, 28 Feb 2021 18:35:57 -0500
Dan Kemppainen dan@irtelemetrics.com wrote:
If any of you have any suggestions on where to find information on how
to get something like this to oscillate properly, guess at correct
parameters, or even measure any of the parameters I would really
appreciate it.
The best way would be to use a network analyzer and measure
the crystals LCR parameters. Using that you can use the
standard harmonic oscillator literature (Parzen, Frerking,...)
to design the circuit.
I seem to have misplaced my literature on how to measure
crystal oscillators. But if you search for "Neubig" and
"crystal measurement", you should be able to find some of
the nice documents that Bernd Neubig has written on the topic.
The same Neubig made a comment that your normal network analyzer isn't
such a good tool, even a very good one. The reason being you need both a
wide and narrow sweep to make the model values accurate enough. Most
network analyzers achieve the wide sweep, few do the narrow sweep and
then having that combined to fill in the LCR parameters of a suitable
model, not so much. Things you learn by eating breakfast with him. Turns
out that my network analyzer is good for the measurement, but not for
model fitting.
Neubig have been very much involved in standardizing measurements, and
doing those well to characterize accurate enough those high-Q resonators
have it's challenges that leads many efforts into incorrect values.
Cheers,
Magnus
Hi
On Mar 1, 2021, at 3:32 AM, Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.se wrote:
Hi,
On 2021-03-01 01:23, Attila Kinali wrote:
On Sun, 28 Feb 2021 18:35:57 -0500
Dan Kemppainen dan@irtelemetrics.com wrote:
If any of you have any suggestions on where to find information on how
to get something like this to oscillate properly, guess at correct
parameters, or even measure any of the parameters I would really
appreciate it.
The best way would be to use a network analyzer and measure
the crystals LCR parameters. Using that you can use the
standard harmonic oscillator literature (Parzen, Frerking,...)
to design the circuit.
I seem to have misplaced my literature on how to measure
crystal oscillators. But if you search for "Neubig" and
"crystal measurement", you should be able to find some of
the nice documents that Bernd Neubig has written on the topic.
The same Neubig made a comment that your normal network analyzer isn't
such a good tool, even a very good one. The reason being you need both a
wide and narrow sweep to make the model values accurate enough. Most
network analyzers achieve the wide sweep, few do the narrow sweep and
then having that combined to fill in the LCR parameters of a suitable
model, not so much. Things you learn by eating breakfast with him. Turns
out that my network analyzer is good for the measurement, but not for
model fitting.
Neubig have been very much involved in standardizing measurements, and
doing those well to characterize accurate enough those high-Q resonators
have it's challenges that leads many efforts into incorrect values.
Cheers,
Magnus
A while back I got drafted into writing the code and validating the procedure
to do this commercially. With care, it can be done and the results are quite
good. As you would expect, there are various gotcha’s you run into.
Along with the network analyzer (resolution and noise) , it depends a bit on the
crystal you are looking at. High Q low frequency crystals are a challenge for the typical
network analyzer. Something like a 150 MHz fundamental is generally pushing
things like test setup (…. rigid cables are a good idea) more than the analyzer.
Yes this assumes you are looking at “real” ( = expensive) analyzers rather than
the low cost stuff. There is a reason people pay for those great big boxes …. :)
Fun !!
Bob
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and follow the instructions there.
This (see jpeg picture) crystal from Morion seems to have a Q of
1147576, as measured on a Saunders 150B.
Youtube video of the 150B in action:
https://youtu.be/y-rCgumTn4Q
Parameters from the 150B:
Holder, Cs (pF), Ct (pF), Fs (MHz), Fp (MHz), Rm, C0 (pF),Cm (pF),
Lm (uH), Qu
Glass, 25, 31.05, 5.127993, 5.128964, 2.3, 6.05, 0.011759,
81917.1860871, 1147576
On Mon, Mar 1, 2021 at 3:46 PM Bob kb8tq kb8tq@n1k.org wrote:
Hi
On Mar 1, 2021, at 3:32 AM, Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.se wrote:
Hi,
On 2021-03-01 01:23, Attila Kinali wrote:
On Sun, 28 Feb 2021 18:35:57 -0500
Dan Kemppainen dan@irtelemetrics.com wrote:
If any of you have any suggestions on where to find information on how
to get something like this to oscillate properly, guess at correct
parameters, or even measure any of the parameters I would really
appreciate it.
The best way would be to use a network analyzer and measure
the crystals LCR parameters. Using that you can use the
standard harmonic oscillator literature (Parzen, Frerking,...)
to design the circuit.
I seem to have misplaced my literature on how to measure
crystal oscillators. But if you search for "Neubig" and
"crystal measurement", you should be able to find some of
the nice documents that Bernd Neubig has written on the topic.
The same Neubig made a comment that your normal network analyzer isn't
such a good tool, even a very good one. The reason being you need both a
wide and narrow sweep to make the model values accurate enough. Most
network analyzers achieve the wide sweep, few do the narrow sweep and
then having that combined to fill in the LCR parameters of a suitable
model, not so much. Things you learn by eating breakfast with him. Turns
out that my network analyzer is good for the measurement, but not for
model fitting.
Neubig have been very much involved in standardizing measurements, and
doing those well to characterize accurate enough those high-Q resonators
have it's challenges that leads many efforts into incorrect values.
Cheers,
Magnus
A while back I got drafted into writing the code and validating the procedure
to do this commercially. With care, it can be done and the results are quite
good. As you would expect, there are various gotcha’s you run into.
Along with the network analyzer (resolution and noise) , it depends a bit on the
crystal you are looking at. High Q low frequency crystals are a challenge for the typical
network analyzer. Something like a 150 MHz fundamental is generally pushing
things like test setup (…. rigid cables are a good idea) more than the analyzer.
Yes this assumes you are looking at “real” ( = expensive) analyzers rather than
the low cost stuff. There is a reason people pay for those great big boxes …. :)
Fun !!
Bob
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and follow the instructions there.
G3UUR and K8IQY have simple test circuits for measuring crystal motional
parameters.
G3UUR is great for comparing or matching a batch of similar-cut AT crystals.
The K8IQY method is a bit more comprehensive for "unknown" crystals and
involves very tiny step sweeping around the resonance you're interested in.
K8IQY detailed writeup here:
https://www.k8iqy.com/testequipment/pvxo/Atlanticon2002V1R5.pdf
Tim N3QE
On Mon, Mar 1, 2021 at 3:36 AM Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.se wrote:
Hi,
On 2021-03-01 01:23, Attila Kinali wrote:
On Sun, 28 Feb 2021 18:35:57 -0500
Dan Kemppainen dan@irtelemetrics.com wrote:
If any of you have any suggestions on where to find information on how
to get something like this to oscillate properly, guess at correct
parameters, or even measure any of the parameters I would really
appreciate it.
The best way would be to use a network analyzer and measure
the crystals LCR parameters. Using that you can use the
standard harmonic oscillator literature (Parzen, Frerking,...)
to design the circuit.
I seem to have misplaced my literature on how to measure
crystal oscillators. But if you search for "Neubig" and
"crystal measurement", you should be able to find some of
the nice documents that Bernd Neubig has written on the topic.
The same Neubig made a comment that your normal network analyzer isn't
such a good tool, even a very good one. The reason being you need both a
wide and narrow sweep to make the model values accurate enough. Most
network analyzers achieve the wide sweep, few do the narrow sweep and
then having that combined to fill in the LCR parameters of a suitable
model, not so much. Things you learn by eating breakfast with him. Turns
out that my network analyzer is good for the measurement, but not for
model fitting.
Neubig have been very much involved in standardizing measurements, and
doing those well to characterize accurate enough those high-Q resonators
have it's challenges that leads many efforts into incorrect values.
Cheers,
Magnus
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.
Hi
Missing step from that YouTube video:
Stuff a fixed resistor into the 150B and calibrate the Rm per the manual.
Without that, your resistance numbers can be pretty far off. In a production
setting some of the Saunders gear got “calibrated” (or at least checked) each
time the frequency band was changed …..
http://ftb.ko4bb.com/manuals/73.64.254.239/Saunders_and_Associates_Crystal_Impedance_Meter_150B_Service_Manual.pdf http://ftb.ko4bb.com/manuals/73.64.254.239/Saunders_and_Associates_Crystal_Impedance_Meter_150B_Service_Manual.pdf
Section 4 ( Operation )
Paragraph A ( first step in operation) … Calibration Resistor.
( and on from there).
The approach for the other Saunders stuff is similar, but the details change
a bit from model to model.
While they like to talk about super duper fancy standards. Check it with
a 51 ohm 1/8W carbon comp and see what you get. Compare that reading
to what your 3456A says …..
Fun !!!
Bob
On Mar 1, 2021, at 10:38 AM, Azelio Boriani azelio.boriani@gmail.com wrote:
This (see jpeg picture) crystal from Morion seems to have a Q of
1147576, as measured on a Saunders 150B.
Youtube video of the 150B in action:
https://youtu.be/y-rCgumTn4Q
Parameters from the 150B:
Holder, Cs (pF), Ct (pF), Fs (MHz), Fp (MHz), Rm, C0 (pF),Cm (pF),
Lm (uH), Qu
Glass, 25, 31.05, 5.127993, 5.128964, 2.3, 6.05, 0.011759,
81917.1860871, 1147576
On Mon, Mar 1, 2021 at 3:46 PM Bob kb8tq kb8tq@n1k.org wrote:
Hi
On Mar 1, 2021, at 3:32 AM, Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.se wrote:
Hi,
On 2021-03-01 01:23, Attila Kinali wrote:
On Sun, 28 Feb 2021 18:35:57 -0500
Dan Kemppainen dan@irtelemetrics.com wrote:
If any of you have any suggestions on where to find information on how
to get something like this to oscillate properly, guess at correct
parameters, or even measure any of the parameters I would really
appreciate it.
The best way would be to use a network analyzer and measure
the crystals LCR parameters. Using that you can use the
standard harmonic oscillator literature (Parzen, Frerking,...)
to design the circuit.
I seem to have misplaced my literature on how to measure
crystal oscillators. But if you search for "Neubig" and
"crystal measurement", you should be able to find some of
the nice documents that Bernd Neubig has written on the topic.
The same Neubig made a comment that your normal network analyzer isn't
such a good tool, even a very good one. The reason being you need both a
wide and narrow sweep to make the model values accurate enough. Most
network analyzers achieve the wide sweep, few do the narrow sweep and
then having that combined to fill in the LCR parameters of a suitable
model, not so much. Things you learn by eating breakfast with him. Turns
out that my network analyzer is good for the measurement, but not for
model fitting.
Neubig have been very much involved in standardizing measurements, and
doing those well to characterize accurate enough those high-Q resonators
have it's challenges that leads many efforts into incorrect values.
Cheers,
Magnus
A while back I got drafted into writing the code and validating the procedure
to do this commercially. With care, it can be done and the results are quite
good. As you would expect, there are various gotcha’s you run into.
Along with the network analyzer (resolution and noise) , it depends a bit on the
crystal you are looking at. High Q low frequency crystals are a challenge for the typical
network analyzer. Something like a 150 MHz fundamental is generally pushing
things like test setup (…. rigid cables are a good idea) more than the analyzer.
Yes this assumes you are looking at “real” ( = expensive) analyzers rather than
the low cost stuff. There is a reason people pay for those great big boxes …. :)
Fun !!
Bob
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.
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<Morion5128kHz.jpg>_______________________________________________
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My response got lost in the Internet, so I repeat the info.
If you have access to a Network Analyzer, either Scalar or Vector, you
can measure the crystal parameters. You need a test fixture (it could be
homemade) to convert the 50 Ohm analyzer impedance to 12.5 Ohm and you
very slowly sweep the crystal to obtain its serial resonance (frequency
and attenuation) the and the -3dB points frequencies. From these
measurements there are simple formulas to obtain the motional
resistance, inductance and capacitance, and the crystal Q.
Some professional Network Analyzers seems not to be very adequate to do
this because they cannot sweep slowly enough, but some low cost hobby
type analyzers have a mode for measuring crystals with these
calculations integrated. One example being the Poor Ham Scalar Network
Analyzer which has a function for specifically measuring crystals using
a step rate of 1 Hz and the nanoVNA, that can measure the resonance
point and you do the calculations. A program with the measurements and
calculations integrated is under development at this time.
This an example of the PHSNA output:
Crystal Id: 8 Mhz #3
Peak Frec. (Hz): 7996356
Bandwidth (Hz): 354,5
Rs (Ohm): 24,3
Lm (mH): 22,13353409
Cm (pF): 0,01789803
Q: 45763
Regards,
Ignacio EB4APL
El 01/03/2021 a las 0:35, Dan Kemppainen escribió:
Hi All,
I've picked up a couple of old crystals. Mostly because they look
neat. They are 1Mhz, in a glass tube. The quartz is ~25mm dia, at
about 1 mm thick. Was able to get them to oscillate using a Colpitts
circuit. They will oscillate at 2.851Mhz (probably some strange mode)
if given the chance.
I've been scouring my reference books here, and haven't had much luck
finding any details on how one would even guess at the parameters of a
quartz like this.
There area few numbers on them, 33 stamped on the side, 1000 (KHz???)
on the top, 87 on the top, and hand written 501 (probably a SN).
Digging on line, I'd guess an AT cut based on thickness. I'm guessing
the 33 is capacitance in pF. 87, might be year.
If any of you have any suggestions on where to find information on how
to get something like this to oscillate properly, guess at correct
parameters, or even measure any of the parameters I would really
appreciate it.
I'm sure these are really nothing special, but it would be neat to
give them a fighting chance to show what they can or can't do without
breaking them!
Thanks,
Dan
--
El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electrónico en busca de virus.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Using the DG8SAQ Vector Network Analyzer to identify an unknown component
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao653tz1kVE
actually it has a special program made for analyzing crystals
Greetings
and 73
KJ6UHN
Alex
On 3/1/2021 12:32 AM, Magnus Danielson wrote:
Hi,
On 2021-03-01 01:23, Attila Kinali wrote:
On Sun, 28 Feb 2021 18:35:57 -0500
Dan Kemppainen dan@irtelemetrics.com wrote:
If any of you have any suggestions on where to find information on how
to get something like this to oscillate properly, guess at correct
parameters, or even measure any of the parameters I would really
appreciate it.
The best way would be to use a network analyzer and measure
the crystals LCR parameters. Using that you can use the
standard harmonic oscillator literature (Parzen, Frerking,...)
to design the circuit.
I seem to have misplaced my literature on how to measure
crystal oscillators. But if you search for "Neubig" and
"crystal measurement", you should be able to find some of
the nice documents that Bernd Neubig has written on the topic.
The same Neubig made a comment that your normal network analyzer isn't
such a good tool, even a very good one. The reason being you need both a
wide and narrow sweep to make the model values accurate enough. Most
network analyzers achieve the wide sweep, few do the narrow sweep and
then having that combined to fill in the LCR parameters of a suitable
model, not so much. Things you learn by eating breakfast with him. Turns
out that my network analyzer is good for the measurement, but not for
model fitting.
Neubig have been very much involved in standardizing measurements, and
doing those well to characterize accurate enough those high-Q resonators
have it's challenges that leads many efforts into incorrect values.
Cheers,
Magnus
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
and follow the instructions there.
Hi
You don’t necessarily need to convert to a 12.5 ohm system. A lot depends on
just what your objectives are.
It a bit like needing a fancy Fluke Hart Chub thermometer if you are only after
a couple of degree accuracy. The tools vary depending on the job.
Bob
On Mar 1, 2021, at 3:23 PM, EB4APL eb4apl@gmail.com wrote:
My response got lost in the Internet, so I repeat the info.
If you have access to a Network Analyzer, either Scalar or Vector, you can measure the crystal parameters. You need a test fixture (it could be homemade) to convert the 50 Ohm analyzer impedance to 12.5 Ohm and you very slowly sweep the crystal to obtain its serial resonance (frequency and attenuation) the and the -3dB points frequencies. From these measurements there are simple formulas to obtain the motional resistance, inductance and capacitance, and the crystal Q.
Some professional Network Analyzers seems not to be very adequate to do this because they cannot sweep slowly enough, but some low cost hobby type analyzers have a mode for measuring crystals with these calculations integrated. One example being the Poor Ham Scalar Network Analyzer which has a function for specifically measuring crystals using a step rate of 1 Hz and the nanoVNA, that can measure the resonance point and you do the calculations. A program with the measurements and calculations integrated is under development at this time.
This an example of the PHSNA output:
Crystal Id: 8 Mhz #3
Peak Frec. (Hz): 7996356
Bandwidth (Hz): 354,5
Rs (Ohm): 24,3
Lm (mH): 22,13353409
Cm (pF): 0,01789803
Q: 45763
Regards,
Ignacio EB4APL
El 01/03/2021 a las 0:35, Dan Kemppainen escribió:
Hi All,
I've picked up a couple of old crystals. Mostly because they look neat. They are 1Mhz, in a glass tube. The quartz is ~25mm dia, at about 1 mm thick. Was able to get them to oscillate using a Colpitts circuit. They will oscillate at 2.851Mhz (probably some strange mode) if given the chance.
I've been scouring my reference books here, and haven't had much luck finding any details on how one would even guess at the parameters of a quartz like this.
There area few numbers on them, 33 stamped on the side, 1000 (KHz???) on the top, 87 on the top, and hand written 501 (probably a SN). Digging on line, I'd guess an AT cut based on thickness. I'm guessing the 33 is capacitance in pF. 87, might be year.
If any of you have any suggestions on where to find information on how to get something like this to oscillate properly, guess at correct parameters, or even measure any of the parameters I would really appreciate it.
I'm sure these are really nothing special, but it would be neat to give them a fighting chance to show what they can or can't do without breaking them!
Thanks,
Dan
--
El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electrónico en busca de virus.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
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