What's the best Windows 10 ntp client?
At my amateur radio club we have Internet access via a WiFi dongle with a Pay As You Go card. A Windows 10 PC is only powered up while we are there, so on around 2-4 hours per week.
Does anyone have any thoughts on what might be the most suitable software to run on our Windows 10 PC to set the time correct?
Someone installed "Dimension 4"
http://www.thinkman.com/dimension4/
As far as I can see, this takes the time from one single NTP server, which I believe is not a good idea. However, given we only run the PC on 2-4 hours per week, maybe no ntp client will work well, but I would have thought using multiple servers being better than one.
I am wondering if anyone has any better suggestions for software. .
Dave.
Le 2 sept. 2016 à 08:29, Dr. David Kirkby drkirkby@gmail.com a écrit :
At my amateur radio club we have Internet access via a WiFi dongle with a Pay As You Go card. A Windows 10 PC is only powered up while we are there, so on around 2-4 hours per week.
Does anyone have any thoughts on what might be the most suitable software to run on our Windows 10 PC to set the time correct?
Someone installed "Dimension 4"
Using inbuilt server lists is not too good an idea .
As far as I can see, this takes the time from one single NTP server, which I believe is not a good idea. However, given we only run the PC on 2-4 hours per week, maybe no ntp client will work well, but I would have thought using multiple servers being better than one.
I see no reason not to run a normal NTP client such as that of Meinberg. You can configure the daemon to allow a large step at start up and as many known good servers to access as you want (try the pool also ). You will have a reasonably good time available in a few minutes that can be monitored with Meinberg’s monitor app. If the windows PC has CPU power saving options, have them disabled.
I am wondering if anyone has any better suggestions for software. .
Dave.
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At my amateur radio club we have Internet access via a WiFi dongle with a
Pay As You Go card. A Windows 10 PC is only powered up while we are there,
so on around 2-4 hours per week.
Does anyone have any thoughts on what might be the most suitable software to
run on our Windows 10 PC to set the time correct?
Someone installed "Dimension 4"
http://www.thinkman.com/dimension4/
As far as I can see, this takes the time from one single NTP server, which I
believe is not a good idea. However, given we only run the PC on 2-4 hours
per week, maybe no ntp client will work well, but I would have thought
using multiple servers being better than one.
I am wondering if anyone has any better suggestions for software. .
Dave.
Why not use the reference implementation - here for Windows:
http://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/setup.html
Works with the NTP Pool selecting multiple servers. For modes requiring
better than 0.1 seconds accuracy consider adding a GPS/PPS to the PC.
Performance available with NTP:
http://www.satsignal.eu/mrtg/performance_ntp.php#windows-stratum-1
73,
David GM8ARV
SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-taylor@blueyonder.co.uk
Twitter: @gm8arv
https://www.meinbergglobal.com/english/sw/ntp.htm
It uses NTP and you can set the servers you like in its (typically) C:\Program Files (x86)\NTP\etc \ntp.conf
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of David J Taylor
Sent: Friday, September 2, 2016 1:18 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] What's the best Windows 10 ntp client?
At my amateur radio club we have Internet access via a WiFi dongle with a Pay As You Go card. A Windows 10 PC is only powered up while we are there, so on around 2-4 hours per week.
Does anyone have any thoughts on what might be the most suitable software to run on our Windows 10 PC to set the time correct?
Someone installed "Dimension 4"
http://www.thinkman.com/dimension4/
As far as I can see, this takes the time from one single NTP server, which I believe is not a good idea. However, given we only run the PC on 2-4 hours per week, maybe no ntp client will work well, but I would have thought using multiple servers being better than one.
I am wondering if anyone has any better suggestions for software. .
Dave.
Why not use the reference implementation - here for Windows:
http://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/setup.html
Works with the NTP Pool selecting multiple servers. For modes requiring better than 0.1 seconds accuracy consider adding a GPS/PPS to the PC.
Performance available with NTP:
http://www.satsignal.eu/mrtg/performance_ntp.php#windows-stratum-1
73,
David GM8ARV
SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-taylor@blueyonder.co.uk
Twitter: @gm8arv
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
From: STR .
https://www.meinbergglobal.com/english/sw/ntp.htm
It uses NTP and you can set the servers you like in its (typically)
C:\Program Files (x86)\NTP\etc \ntp.conf
As I mention here:
http://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/setup.html
it is suggested that the program be installed outside the Program Files tree
so that user edits to ntp.conf don't fall into the Windows directory
virtualisation trap - "I edited the file but nothing changed". No need for
admin-level access.
Cheers,
David
--
SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-taylor@blueyonder.co.uk
Twitter: @gm8arv
Dr. David Kirkby wrote:
At my amateur radio club we have Internet access via a WiFi dongle with a Pay As You Go card. A Windows 10 PC is only powered up while we are there, so on around 2-4 hours per week.
Does anyone have any thoughts on what might be the most suitable software to run on our Windows 10 PC to set the time correct?
It depends on the accuracy requirements you have. Getting high accuracy
under Windows can be pretty tricky.
Some days ago tvb asked me off-list about details on timekeeping under
different Windows versions, and I've put some information together here:
https://www.meinbergglobal.com/download/burnicki/time_synchronization_accuracy_with_ntp.pdf
I've also put some measurement results together, which you can find here:
https://www.meinbergglobal.com/download/burnickintp_and_windows_history.pdf
These articles are PDF exports from Meinberg-internal wiki pages, so
they may not be particularly well formatted. Sorry for that.
I've never tried this.
As far as I can see, this takes the time from one single NTP server, which I believe is not a good idea. However, given we only run the PC on 2-4 hours per week, maybe no ntp client will work well, but I would have thought using multiple servers being better than one.
I am wondering if anyone has any better suggestions for software. .
Again, it depends on the accuracy requirements you have. The NTP daemon
(ntpd) from ntp.org has been designed for long-term operation. It tries
to determine the clock drift of the local computer, and compensate it.
The Windows port also includes a couple of workarounds for limitations
in the Windows kernel, and IMO yields very good results under the given
conditions.
Martin
NTP Time Server Monitor by Meinberg.
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389
On 9/2/2016 1:29 AM, Dr. David Kirkby wrote:
At my amateur radio club we have Internet access via a WiFi dongle with a Pay As You Go card. A Windows 10 PC is only powered up while we are there, so on around 2-4 hours per week.
Does anyone have any thoughts on what might be the most suitable software to run on our Windows 10 PC to set the time correct?
Someone installed "Dimension 4"
http://www.thinkman.com/dimension4/t
As far as I can see, this takes the time from one single NTP server, which I believe is not a good idea. However, given we only run the PC on 2-4 hours per week, maybe no ntp client will work well, but I would have thought using multiple servers being better than one.
I am wondering if anyone has any better suggestions for software. .
Dave.
Clay Autery wrote:
NTP Time Server Monitor by Meinberg.
Sorry, no.
As the name suggests this is only a monitor program for NTP service
(ntpd). You can use it to start/stop the NTP service, have a graphical
presentation of the loopstats files optionally generated by ntpd, etc.
So this is a nice optional addon for ntpd, but you need ntpd to actually
synchronize the system time. The monitor program doesn't do that.
Martin (working @meinberg)
For a Windows machine that is always on, I would strongly recommend
Meinberg NTPD as "easy to install and the real deal". And free. It works
just fine under Windows 10.
Dimension 4, I am not impressed by, but if the only thing it has to do is
set the clock at boot time, then it might be OK. But I think Windows 10
time service is good enough to do that out-of-the box from Microsoft.
Tim N3QE
On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 2:29 AM, Dr. David Kirkby drkirkby@gmail.com wrote:
At my amateur radio club we have Internet access via a WiFi dongle with a
Pay As You Go card. A Windows 10 PC is only powered up while we are there,
so on around 2-4 hours per week.
Does anyone have any thoughts on what might be the most suitable software
to run on our Windows 10 PC to set the time correct?
Someone installed "Dimension 4"
http://www.thinkman.com/dimension4/
As far as I can see, this takes the time from one single NTP server, which
I believe is not a good idea. However, given we only run the PC on 2-4
hours per week, maybe no ntp client will work well, but I would have
thought using multiple servers being better than one.
I am wondering if anyone has any better suggestions for software. .
Dave.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
I would also suggest using NTP. I have set it up and configured it using the directions here ( http://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/setup.html ) and it works very well.
One thing to note is that Windows 10 does have the built in capability to set the time for itself, using a variant of SNTP. So I would be sure to turn this off by disabling the "Windows Time" Service.
Also, be aware that using NTP on a system that isn't on all the time, or has what I would describe as "asymmetric internet access" might cause NTP to be slow in correcting the time, or only be somewhat effective. If you are only looking to have it accurate to the right minute, then don't worry. But this is better addressed elsewhere.
-Randal
(at CubeCentral)
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Dr. David Kirkby
Sent: Friday, 02 September, 2016 00:30
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] What's the best Windows 10 ntp client?
At my amateur radio club we have Internet access via a WiFi dongle with a Pay As You Go card. A Windows 10 PC is only powered up while we are there, so on around 2-4 hours per week.
Does anyone have any thoughts on what might be the most suitable software to run on our Windows 10 PC to set the time correct?
Someone installed "Dimension 4"
http://www.thinkman.com/dimension4/
As far as I can see, this takes the time from one single NTP server, which I believe is not a good idea. However, given we only run the PC on 2-4 hours per week, maybe no ntp client will work well, but I would have thought using multiple servers being better than one.
I am wondering if anyone has any better suggestions for software. .
Dave.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
On 9/2/2016 1:29 AM, Dr. David Kirkby wrote:
At my amateur radio club we have Internet access via a WiFi dongle with a Pay As You Go card. A Windows 10 PC is only powered up while we are there, so on around 2-4 hours per week.
Does anyone have any thoughts on what might be the most suitable software to run on our Windows 10 PC to set the time correct?
Someone installed "Dimension 4"
http://www.thinkman.com/dimension4/
As far as I can see, this takes the time from one single NTP server, which I believe is not a good idea. However, given we only run the PC on 2-4 hours per week, maybe no ntp client will work well, but I would have thought using multiple servers being better than one.
I am wondering if anyone has any better suggestions for software. .
Dave.
The key to my response is your (reasonable) request for "most suitable."
Given your scenario, I suspect the most demanding need for time is file
system coordination and possibly logging software time stamping.
Operating on that assumption, and that you are running on a "WiFi
Dongle" which I suspect is actually a cellular data card, the native
syncing capability of Win10 combined with the PC's real time clock is
probably more than adequate. It's also probably going to be more
economical as it will be considerably less 'chatty' that serious NTP
clients.
I know this doesn't meet the standards of time-nuttery, but it's
probably more than adequate for this particular application.
Oz (N1OZ, in DFW) standing next to the fire extinguisher.
--
mailto:oz@ozindfw.net
Oz
POB 93167
Southlake, TX 76092 (Near DFW Airport)
I would like to retract my previous statement. If you are only using the Windows system a couple hours a week, that may not be enough time for you to see any benefit from using NTP.
NTP needs more time than that to "discuss" the local system time with the other configured NTP servers out there on the Internet. (and you would want more than a single server in the configuration file)
I don't see why the built-in Windows Time service wouldn't work in this instance. It should be able to reach out to a (single, pre-configured) source and set the time within a couple of seconds.
Is the PC powering on with the incorrect time consistently? If this is the case, then it may require a new CMOS battery. (A small, coin battery that helps the computer keep its configuration and time while off)
Additionally, it sounds as if Internet access is a precious commodity for you, so every little bit of data sent or received is precious. The built-in Windows Time service would use less data to simply set the system time than NTP does. Also, I believe, it is configured not to trigger a "dial on demand" request that would connect to the Internet on its own. I am not sure this is the case with the NTP solution.
It is hard to say which implementation is the ideal one for you, as you didn't state how important the correct time is to you or your club. If you need the correct time "good enough" then use the built-in Windows Time service that uses SNTP. If you need more exact time than that, well perhaps some other clock would be better used. Such as this: https://www.tindie.com/products/ptudor/jemma-clock/ ... or any number of other variants. The combination of GPS and a clock or display is very powerful indeed and very easy to set up and use.
I hope that some of this helps.
-Randal
(at CubeCentral)
-----Original Message-----
From: Cube Central [mailto:cubecentral@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, 02 September, 2016 08:04
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: RE: [time-nuts] What's the best Windows 10 ntp client?
I would also suggest using NTP. I have set it up and configured it using the directions here ( http://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/setup.html ) and it works very well.
One thing to note is that Windows 10 does have the built in capability to set the time for itself, using a variant of SNTP. So I would be sure to turn this off by disabling the "Windows Time" Service.
Also, be aware that using NTP on a system that isn't on all the time, or has what I would describe as "asymmetric internet access" might cause NTP to be slow in correcting the time, or only be somewhat effective. If you are only looking to have it accurate to the right minute, then don't worry. But this is better addressed elsewhere.
-Randal
(at CubeCentral)
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Dr. David Kirkby
Sent: Friday, 02 September, 2016 00:30
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] What's the best Windows 10 ntp client?
At my amateur radio club we have Internet access via a WiFi dongle with a Pay As You Go card. A Windows 10 PC is only powered up while we are there, so on around 2-4 hours per week.
Does anyone have any thoughts on what might be the most suitable software to run on our Windows 10 PC to set the time correct?
Someone installed "Dimension 4"
http://www.thinkman.com/dimension4/
As far as I can see, this takes the time from one single NTP server, which I believe is not a good idea. However, given we only run the PC on 2-4 hours per week, maybe no ntp client will work well, but I would have thought using multiple servers being better than one.
I am wondering if anyone has any better suggestions for software. .
Dave.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
The best NTP program to run is the reference implementation at ntp.org
This is the one all the experts are looking at and fixing when problems or
improvements are found. ftp.org also on their download page as a link to
third party parts and re-implementatons for those who for whatever reason
can't use the official release from ntp.org. This is the same software
that almost all of the NTP servers out on the Internet are running.
You are right about using just one NTP server for time. I'd suggest a
minimum of three but it cost not more to use five. NTP will figure out
which of them are "best" from the set you get it.
What kind of accuracy do you need? I assume if the computer is running
Windows 10 all you need is the nominal time to maybe 1/10th of a second at
best. That is 100 milliseconds and is dead-easy such that even MS
Windows with a poor internet connection can work at that level. You
should be able to get to tens of milliseconds.
With effort the above software from ntp.org can run at the few micro
seconds level. That should be within the means of any radio club but you
may not need it. It would involve putting up a GPS antenna, running coax
to a GPS receiver. Nothing a bunch of hams could not handle but you may
only need 30 to 50 millisecond accuracy and Windows can do using poll
servers on the Internet.
All that said, You MAY already have a good NTP server running at your
site. Many home routers run NTP inside and are left on and running 24x7.
The router uses ntp just to get the time of the log files correct and
likely does this bater then MS Windows. If you have a local ntp server
then using just one server (the local one) is fine.
On Thu, Sep 1, 2016 at 11:29 PM, Dr. David Kirkby drkirkby@gmail.com
wrote:
At my amateur radio club we have Internet access via a WiFi dongle with a
Pay As You Go card. A Windows 10 PC is only powered up while we are there,
so on around 2-4 hours per week.
Does anyone have any thoughts on what might be the most suitable software
to run on our Windows 10 PC to set the time correct?
Someone installed "Dimension 4"
http://www.thinkman.com/dimension4/
As far as I can see, this takes the time from one single NTP server, which
I believe is not a good idea. However, given we only run the PC on 2-4
hours per week, maybe no ntp client will work well, but I would have
thought using multiple servers being better than one.
I am wondering if anyone has any better suggestions for software. .
Dave.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
--
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
From: Cube Central
I would like to retract my previous statement. If you are only using the
Windows system a couple hours a week, that may not be enough time for you to
see any benefit from using NTP.
NTP needs more time than that to "discuss" the local system time with the
other configured NTP servers out there on the Internet. (and you would want
more than a single server in the configuration file)
[]
-Randal
---====
Randal,
Take a look at PC Puffin's timekeeping here:
http://www.satsignal.eu/mrtg/performance_puffin.php
It is switched on every morning, and is within a couple of milliseconds
almost immediately. It runs Win-10 which helps (as would Win-8), and syncs
to stratum-1 servers on my LAN. Some of those servers are Raspberry Pi
cards with a low-cost GPS/PPS, running continuously - possibly another
interesting project for the radio club, together with using the RPi and an
RTL dongle as a receiver between 50 and 1500 MHz.
Using the "pool" directive ensures that NTP has enough servers without
having to edit any configuration file for specific servers.
Cheers,
David
SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-taylor@blueyonder.co.uk
Twitter: @gm8arv
Well then the ntpd program written into MY Windows CONTROLLED by the
program represented in the attached image....
It says it is a Monitor, but it ALSO controls how NTP works on MY machine...
It keeps my computer as accurate as can be expected considering I'm
using remote server sources and wireless connection to the internet...
I'll worry about compiling my own ntpd, et al. once I decide to run my
own stratum 1 server...
I'm pretty consistently within +/- 4 milliseconds at any given time...
usually < +/- 2 ms.
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389
On 9/2/2016 8:09 AM, Martin Burnicki wrote:
Clay Autery wrote:
NTP Time Server Monitor by Meinberg.
Sorry, no.
As the name suggests this is only a monitor program for NTP service
(ntpd). You can use it to start/stop the NTP service, have a graphical
presentation of the loopstats files optionally generated by ntpd, etc.
So this is a nice optional addon for ntpd, but you need ntpd to actually
synchronize the system time. The monitor program doesn't do that.
Martin (working @meinberg)
PS....
I am running BOTH the Meinberg ntpd AND the monitor...
My fault for allowing you to make me doubt myself.... <grrrr>.
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389
On 9/2/2016 8:09 AM, Martin Burnicki wrote:
Clay Autery wrote:
NTP Time Server Monitor by Meinberg.
Sorry, no.
As the name suggests this is only a monitor program for NTP service
(ntpd). You can use it to start/stop the NTP service, have a graphical
presentation of the loopstats files optionally generated by ntpd, etc.
So this is a nice optional addon for ntpd, but you need ntpd to actually
synchronize the system time. The monitor program doesn't do that.
Martin (working @meinberg)
Well then the ntpd program written into MY Windows CONTROLLED by the
program represented in the attached image....
It says it is a Monitor, but it ALSO controls how NTP works on MY machine...
It keeps my computer as accurate as can be expected considering I'm
using remote server sources and wireless connection to the internet...
I'll worry about compiling my own ntpd, et al. once I decide to run my
own stratum 1 server...
I'm pretty consistently within +/- 4 milliseconds at any given time...
usually < +/- 2 ms.
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389
---=====================
Clay,
One suggestion: you may be better off using the "pool" directive and
allowing NTP to select its own choice of servers rather than using
potentially overloaded stratum-1 servers. Perhaps for Windows it won't make
too much difference. You'll enjoy making your own NTP stratum-1 server
whether it be on Windows or on e.g. a Raspberry Pi card.
Cheers,
David
SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-taylor@blueyonder.co.uk
Twitter: @gm8arv
Appreciate the thought David...
I've tried the"pool" setup too. It's OK, but the way I have it set now
is much more consistently accurate.
And actually, the screen shot I sent was after a relatively recent
system reboot.... And I am not just letting the program "run". I have
been systematically running through the documentation learning the ins
and outs of ALL the ntpd options (as time permits).
I carefully choose the servers I use. None of these are generally under
much of a load. They are all "OPEN" and/or I have complied with the
notification and/or request requirements.
Yes, I am looking forward to building and running my own local server
(and I'll likely run a second one and donate it to the pool).
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389
Clay,
One suggestion: you may be better off using the "pool" directive and
allowing NTP to select its own choice of servers rather than using
potentially overloaded stratum-1 servers. Perhaps for Windows it
won't make too much difference. You'll enjoy making your own NTP
stratum-1 server whether it be on Windows or on e.g. a Raspberry Pi card.
Cheers,
David