I4m really glad my post got some interest.

I have 2 sample tests re: wiring.
Your masthead lights fail. Your front winch electrical cabling (or
bowhruster) fails.
You need a new cable to any one or all of these pieces of equipment.

Question 1: How long will it take to install ? 1.b. At what cost ?
Please quote, everyone, from your experiences and craft, what it would
take to install a new cable up the masthead and or to the bow winch or
bowthruster.
This is  at the boatyard, what about at anchor, making way, in bvi, st.
martin etc. where you have to wait/get parts by fedex etc ?

I suspect or suggest that in the US

* Masthead: 1040 $ - 200$ cable plus 840$ (8 hours, 200$ in bits)
* Power to bow: 2240 $ - 1200 $ cable plus 840 $ installation (8
  hours, 200$ in bits)

The extra cost in originally installed redundant cables would have been
300-500 $. The cost in installing dual cable or single cable, and the
fixtures (clips, ties, mounts, screws, bedding etc.) are nearly
equivalent at build or refit time. The labor cost is nearly identical.

Difference is 600% to 700% at boatyard in the US !
Real cost, when its somewhere far away, will always exceed 10x original
build cost. The labor in Mexico will be 1/3 of us rates, but you will
pay for the time you wait and customs and shipping and costs etc.

Radar was not carried by most craft who have made long(er) voyages.
Radar is not carried by most recreational craft in Europe, or southeast
Rasia, or the Caribbean. Please note that the Spanish/French/finish
market is perhaps the most advanced, knowledgeable market in the world.
On any given day in the season there will be 10.000 craft out. Ergo -
it4s not necessary.

I will wish to have radar of course. And like to. And sometimes it is
very useful. Its just that it by no means necessary.
Not having radar will not make my life end, nor will it keep me from
sailing. And sometimes not having it, will mean I cannot go and do some
things I might like. Thats all right, life is like that. I cannot alway
have everything I might wish for.

If I or anyone else wishes to go from Barcelona to Malta, crossing all
the med, like 1000s do every summer, I would like to have radar. Many
don4t. Its by no means essential, but will definitely be a comfort
factor at night. But it will NOT make you safe, as many potential
accidents the radar would not save you from.
Like the fishtraps off Tunisia. Or off Malta. Or sardinia. Or small
craft and un-lighted small fishermen everywhere.

EPIRB.
If I have the extra money, I will have eprib. Of course.
In tests, about 1/3 are not responded to. If far from shore, there will
likely be no-one near you. Its a tool, desirable, but not essential.

Quality of crafts - Cost of components

Bob A -
You state that some yacht builders try out/test/and plan for best most
suitable equipment, and/or installations.
Thats very good news, perhaps I have been mistaken.
Please name 2, so I might talk to the builders, learn something, and
maybe recommend their craft to people I know who buy this this stuff.

How would you feel this applies to one or any of
Dufour, Yeanneau, Island Packet
Nordhavn
Diesel Ducks from Seahorse Marine

If you go and look at a high-end craft, powerboat, the installations are
not done with reliability and maintenance in mind, in my experience.
Perhaps I4m wrong ?
Please, let us know, based on your ample and wide experience, which
manufacturers would actually install their wiring well, with testing,
maintenance and replacing of components in mind.
Is the wiring accessible ?
Can you replace a wire to the front main winch ? How long will it take ?
Are there spares ?
Please let us know your estimate to question 1.

If I go and look at a Baia Azzurra offshore craft (Its a high speed
medium-range offshore powerboat made in Italy, best you can get for
between 2-3 M $), the electrcial installation (the non-visible part) is
crappy. The plumbing packs up. The mountings for shelves and doors and
cabinets are not fit for purpose. But it looks nice. And runs real good,
and is VERY good offshore. My only point was about installation, not
range, economy, looks, seakeeping, safety etc.
And this is a high-end, high-dollar craft.
So I am referring to actual known, particular examples we can go look
at. I believe regarding substantiation, more precise is difficult.
Would you prefer a benetteau, a ronautica, puma, or a dufour as a refuttal ?
If not, which crafts would you prefer to look at and compare ?

So, if someone somewhere actually builds this stuff well, and makes
installing and troubleshooting components easy, and makes sure it works
nearly always, please share with us. I would be delighted to hear what
model / make of boats have their antennas, vhf4s, ssb, radar well
installed, all systems work on day zero, the hinges are good and sturdy,
the materials are adequate, the seals don4t leak etc. etc.

And maybe the next time we hear any of the new owners having trouble
with (5-10%) of their brand spanking new equipment within their first
week or two, they can send the yard bill to the manufacturer ?
Many actually pay the costs, btw, I believe even perhaps most may pay
the costs, even when the work is done elsewhere. This is to their
credit. But when the warranty is over, the failures accumulate just the
same, and so do the costs.

My point:
Why does it have to be done poorly in the first place ?
Why is it not built to last, when we actually paid for it ?
Why is it not build with maintenance in mind ?

Of the 5 craft mentioned, my points stand for all of them.

Where and if I am in error, please let me know and I will go look at
them and learn. I humbly apologize, if I cannot find a single example
well done in only 20 years, and  therefore my lack of experience leads
me to see these failings as common and universal.

Thoughts to ponder;
Perhaps the failure is with the charter fleets that get us the boats we
goat out on ? Perhaps they fail to provide us with adequate craft ? Why ?
I suspect that my original point, economics, stands 100%.

Would not the operators of the charter fleets here and elsewhere
otherwise provide better craft, if they had them ? Would they not prefer
to have craft that are cheaper and easier to maintain ?
Would most owners of private long-distance craft agree that the original
installations made any maintenance, refit or upgrades far too complex,
costly and difficult ?

If You don4t agree, please let me know.
So far, I am are still looking for 2 examples, built to last, well
built, with good access and easy maintenance, built from suitable,
adequate components.

Please note - these comments are based on installation not design.
In design terms, I think the Seahorse Ducks are very, very good,
although the George Buehler Troller design is better for long-distance
passagemaking, just like the FPD from the Dashews. I suspect the FPB has
excellent installations, and would exclude it from my comments. As a
very very expensive, limited edition, high-end, new design, I think it
can be excluded when referring to the "normal" range of boats.

Sorry for the long post - aiming for exact factually correct mails makes
for more detail. I find it somewhat in poor taste when I am called
"unsubstantiated" and no refuttal or practical details, make, mark
and/or name are offered.
"I strive for perfection, knowing I am bound to fail, happy to have tried."

Both sailboat (Crealock 37) came with a pair of extra electrical cables to
the masthead. My Willard (1985) has a string inside the mast.

Ron Rogers

----- Original Message -----
From: "Hal Wyman" twl2@halwyman.com

| Isn't installing an extra masthead cable at build time kind of an
insurance
| policy?  Pay $150 now on the off-chance that you might have to pay $1040
| later?  Not a good bet in my mind but I'm sure the boat builders would
love
| it.

I bought my "83 Crealock in 1986. The previous owner had only installed a
cheap VHF. The extra wires were literality sticking up out of the mast with
some masking tape joining them! In 1983, Pacific Seacraft had an undeserved
reputation as one of the best. Her wiring was a disgrace and they couldn't
spell fairlead. I did allot of upgrades. I think you are right about the
purpose of the wire as that is what I used it for - a tricolor/strobe.
Pulling Belden RG8U up the mast is another story. {8*))

Ron Rogers
1985 Willard 40FBS
AIRBORNE
Lying Washington, NC

----- Original Message -----
From: "Hal Wyman" twl2@halwyman.com

| Do you think it might have been for an optional item of equipment, like a
| tri-color light perhaps?  I can't see putting in an extra wire when the
old
| wire is a perfectly good messenger, or if the wire and insulation part you
| can always drop one down from the masthead.
|
| On the other hand putting cords alongside wiring runs is a perfectly good
| idea IMO.
|
| Hal