The AM in a pref debacle
Ah, of course it's even more complicated than I first thought, because
outgoing servers aren't set for an account, but for each identity…
On Wed, Jun 26, 2019 at 9:43 AM John Bieling john.bieling@gmx.de wrote:
Regarding the SMTP servers: I understand that we have the separate
section for it to reduce redundant information but I think it is worth
considering removing that and defining incoming and outgoing servers per
account. It simplifies the UI a lot. I always found that strange. For
example after deleting an account, the SMTP servers remained and piled
up over the years.
And I actually like how Postbox did the options window. I wish we would
go the same path.
John
Am 26.06.2019 um 08:30 schrieb Onno Ekker:
On Tue, Jun 25, 2019 at 11:35 PM Jörg Knobloch jorgk@jorgk.com wrote:
On 24/06/2019 23:00, Jörg Knobloch wrote:
Then in 2014 some dedicated volunteers started developing "AM in pref
tab" in [2] since the options were moved into a tab like in Firefox
for TB 38.
Just for a laugh:
https://support.postbox-inc.com/hc/article_attachments/360010625114/delete-account_2x.png
Accounts in the options, like we had it. Also check the images attached
to https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=286664.
Well, at least Postbox got the position of the selector better. After
General would be a good place, if you want to make the Account
Settings more prominent. At least it's not after Advanced, which
should always be the last, catch all, selector, in my opinion.
The screenshots also point to a few extra challenges that need to be
considered. What to do with Identities and what to do with Outgoing
server (SMTP) settings. Identities can be added to an account by the
user and are always directly coupled to that account, but there can be
multiple identities. Outgoing servers are created when you create an
account, but you can switch those between accounts and add/remove them
separately…
Onno
Maildev mailing list
Maildev@lists.thunderbird.net
http://lists.thunderbird.net/mailman/listinfo/maildev_lists.thunderbird.net
Jörg Knobloch wrote on 25.06.19 23:34:
On 24/06/2019 23:00, Jörg Knobloch wrote:
Then in 2014 some dedicated volunteers started developing "AM in pref
tab" in [2] since the options were moved into a tab like in Firefox
for TB 38.
Looks pretty close to what I proposed. Just that the top sections are on
the left instead of at the top.
Note that the subsections are on the left, as I proposed. Not tabs.
That's simply reasonable, because tabs are always the highest-level
order, after window.
I didn't base my design on Postbox at all. A simple, logical UI will
generally end up in a specific way, because UIs follow certain rules and
that's what users expect.
Ben
+1
The separate SMTP server section is just confusing. I understand why it
happened, because you can theoretically use a SMTP server with another
unrelated account, but was a very advanced config 20 years ago. And
today, that will simply not work in most cases, due to SPF and DKIM.
John Bieling wrote on 26.06.19 09:42:
Regarding the SMTP servers: I understand that we have the separate
section for it to reduce redundant information but I think it is worth
considering removing that and defining incoming and outgoing servers per
account. It simplifies the UI a lot.
In the backend, yes.
The UI doesn't have to be that complex.
Like I said in my last message, these configurations are today mostly
obsolete and don't work anymore for 99.99% of the users. You'd basically
have to adjust SPF settings of the mail server to make it work - how
many users can do that? (And if you relax SPF like this, you run into
troubles with spammers abusing your email addresses. I know from first
hand experience.) The people who run their own mail servers and manually
set can also edit prefs.js.
No need to make the UI just for them.
Ben
Onno Ekker wrote on 26.06.19 12:34:
Ah, of course it's even more complicated than I first thought, because
outgoing servers aren't set for an account, but for each identity…
On Wed, Jun 26, 2019 at 9:43 AM John Bieling john.bieling@gmx.de wrote:
Regarding the SMTP servers: I understand that we have the separate
section for it to reduce redundant information but I think it is worth
considering removing that and defining incoming and outgoing servers per
account. It simplifies the UI a lot. I always found that strange. For
example after deleting an account, the SMTP servers remained and piled
up over the years.
And I actually like how Postbox did the options window. I wish we would
go the same path.
John
Am 26.06.2019 um 08:30 schrieb Onno Ekker:
On Tue, Jun 25, 2019 at 11:35 PM Jörg Knobloch jorgk@jorgk.com wrote:
On 24/06/2019 23:00, Jörg Knobloch wrote:
Then in 2014 some dedicated volunteers started developing "AM in pref
tab" in [2] since the options were moved into a tab like in Firefox
for TB 38.
Just for a laugh:
https://support.postbox-inc.com/hc/article_attachments/360010625114/delete-account_2x.png
Accounts in the options, like we had it. Also check the images attached
to https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=286664.
Well, at least Postbox got the position of the selector better. After
General would be a good place, if you want to make the Account
Settings more prominent. At least it's not after Advanced, which
should always be the last, catch all, selector, in my opinion.
The screenshots also point to a few extra challenges that need to be
considered. What to do with Identities and what to do with Outgoing
server (SMTP) settings. Identities can be added to an account by the
user and are always directly coupled to that account, but there can be
multiple identities. Outgoing servers are created when you create an
account, but you can switch those between accounts and add/remove them
separately…
Onno
Maildev mailing list
Maildev@lists.thunderbird.net
http://lists.thunderbird.net/mailman/listinfo/maildev_lists.thunderbird.net
Thank you all for the great insights and suggestions.
To move the ball forward, I will soon create a new thread in the
Thunderbird UX topicbox, which will be used to share mock-ups to
properly implement the account manager.
The discussion regarding the usefulness of the separate SMTP is really
interesting. I wonder if there are other sections in there we give for
granted that need a thorough analysis.
I guess we could split this implementation into 3 bugs:
- Move Account manager to Tab/Preference panel and adapt the style
- Analyze all the options to remove, restructure, and reorganized
outdated sections - Implement a Search Box to remove tabs and improve discoverability
Anyway, if you're interested in following the visual evolution of this
section, be sure to subscribe to the UX topicbox.
Cheers
On 2019-06-26 5:32 a.m., Ben Bucksch wrote:
+1
The separate SMTP server section is just confusing. I understand why
it happened, because you can theoretically use a SMTP server with
another unrelated account, but was a very advanced config 20 years
ago. And today, that will simply not work in most cases, due to SPF
and DKIM.
John Bieling wrote on 26.06.19 09:42:
Regarding the SMTP servers: I understand that we have the separate
section for it to reduce redundant information but I think it is worth
considering removing that and defining incoming and outgoing servers per
account. It simplifies the UI a lot.
--
Alessandro Castellani
Lead UX Architect
Thunderbird
On 26/06/2019 14:30, Ben Bucksch wrote:
Just for a laugh: https://support.postbox-inc.com/hc/article_attachments/360010625114/delete-account_2x.png
Looks pretty close to what I proposed. Just that the top sections are on the left instead of at the top.
With all due respect, this answer is just hilarious.
What we had[1] and you so vocally opposed ("They are hideous and extremely unprofessional"[2]) is pretty much what Postbox have[3], only that they still use a stand-alone window with pane selection (General, Accounts, Display, etc.) at the top, and we had that selection in-content, so to the left. That and the order are the only difference. IOW, move Postbox' pane section from the top to the left and see our solution.
Jörg.
[1] https://bug1560344.bmoattachments.org/attachment.cgi?id=9073045
[2] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1560344#c43
[3] https://support.postbox-inc.com/hc/article_attachments/360010625114/delete-account_2x.png
On 26-Jun-19 10:02 PM, Ben Bucksch wrote:
+1
The separate SMTP server section is just confusing. I understand why
it happened, because you can theoretically use a SMTP server with
another unrelated account, but was a very advanced config 20 years
ago. And today, that will simply not work in most cases, due to SPF
and DKIM.
It might be confusing, but we must retain a separate SMTP per
identity. It is astounding to me the number of support topics where the
user has redirected a number of email accounts to say gmail as a mail
aggregator and then uses identities and SMTP servers to reply via all
those disparate email addresses from Thunderbird. Just because it is
awkward does not make it wrong. Web aggregation makes getting all their
mail on a phone easier. Thunderbird is the glue that allows replies.
Matt
On 25-Jun-19 6:30 AM, Jörg Knobloch wrote:
Hi friend of Thunderbird,
Back in 2010 there was a discussion about how to restructure
preferences and AM, the thread started here[1].
Just how does one compare settings given in an email against those in
the AM if they are both in a tab? I like tabs, but checking
information against another tab is simply not fun at all. Even for
things like "is this in my calendar?"
Perhaps an address book in a tab first.
Matt
On 06/07/2019 03:29, Matt Harris wrote:
On 26-Jun-19 10:02 PM, Ben Bucksch wrote:
+1
The separate SMTP server section is just confusing. I understand why
it happened, because you can theoretically use a SMTP server with
another unrelated account, but was a very advanced config 20 years
ago. And today, that will simply not work in most cases, due to SPF
and DKIM.
It might be confusing, but we must retain a separate SMTP per
identity. It is astounding to me the number of support topics where
the user has redirected a number of email accounts to say gmail as a
mail aggregator and then uses identities and SMTP servers to reply via
all those disparate email addresses from Thunderbird. Just because it
is awkward does not make it wrong. Web aggregation makes getting all
their mail on a phone easier. Thunderbird is the glue that allows replies.
Matt
I have a friend who travels a lot; when at home, he uses the outgoing
server of the local ISP, when he travels he uses the outgoing server
that is also the incoming server.
On 7/5/2019, 9:33:34 PM, Matt Harris unicorn.consulting@gmail.com wrote:
Just how does one compare settings given in an email against those in
the AM if they are both in a tab? I like tabs, but checking
information against another tab is simply not fun at all. Even for
things like "is this in my calendar?"
Perhaps an address book in a tab first.
Whether it is the Calendar, the Address Book, the AM, or what have you -
I very strongly prefer having the option (in a hidden pref is fine) to
change it back to open in a separate window, and cannot for the life of
me see any reasonable argument against having this as an option.
I understand the idea of tabs. I love tabs in Firefox. I've gotten to
the point I like having the Calendar in a tab - but I would still very
much like to be able to right-click or click a different button and open
it in a separate window sometimes.
I know I will also very much dislike it if the AB is changed to open in
a tab with no way to open it in a separate window, and the same goes for
the AM.