Cummins 5.9 High Output Alternator Large frame & belt routing
Greetings list,
Some time ago I posted about upgrading to a large frame alternator unit - in
my case a 200A Penntex.
The project included discovering the proper mount and belt length changeover.
Rob Acker of Cummins in Grand Rapids, MI, was extremely helpful as he had done
this very change for a number of customers.
The reason for posting today has to do with belt routing (I have pics). On my
motor, the belt was routed from the crank directly to the alternator, then the
tensioner, then the water pump and back to the crank. This is the routing
that the engine manual shows, so I assumed this to be correct.
The problem was that in this configuration, the belt only wrapped maybe 90
degrees around the alternator pulley, which became an issue when the
alternator wanted to put out anything over 120amps - squeals and dust were the
result.
By dumbing down the regulator - Balmar calls this belt management, I was able
to mitigate alot of the noise/dust by limiting the output to less than
120amps.
Al Thomason of the list had sent me some pics of his solution to the large
frame alternator question(his mount has the alternator mounted in front of the
motor and independentally driven by an additional pulley on the crank), in
sending the pic of this he shows a different belt wrap on the motor. His
configuration goes this way: crank, then waterpump, then alternator, then
tensioner. This is far superior in that the alternator pulley now has a full
180 degree wrap.
Eventually, I posed the problem/question to Rob at Cummins. I sent him a pic
of my motor, and a pic of the other one side by side. I asked which was
correct, as well as wondering which way the water pump would like to rotate.
His answer:
"Hi Brian,
The answer to both your questions is YES!!! I can't believe the engine is
cooling correctly with the pump running backward! Additionally, I have never
seen the tensioner mounted in that position, learn something new every day...
The belt needs to be wrapped identical to picture 2. I'd get this done ASAP.
"
The funny thing about all of this is I got the boat with 240 hours on the
motor and have operated without any problems inspite of the backward direction
water pump.
I probably would have continued to do so if not for the alternator upgrade.
Incidentally, after correcting this routing problem, I can now get 200Amps out
of the alternator without the noise.
Since I just installed a much larger house bank of AGM's I want to be able to
charge at as high a rate as I can.
Pics of the belt wrap available for those interested.
Brian Shanafelt
Isobel K
37' Custom Pilothouse
Seattle
I am constantly amazed at the number of incorrect equipment
installations that I run across. You describe the water pump as running
BACKwards? That's not only amazing, it's down right mind boggling; and
it actually appeared to work?
My list of Incredible Mysteries, from the last trip alone, is enough to
give a fellow the willies.
A brand new installed Rule Bilge pump that won't pump. There appears to
be nothing wrong with it. But, the voltage goes to zero when the on
switch is activated, but if it's a short the breaker is not tripping...
And it's wired with the correct polarity; just to stay a step ahead of
you super sleuths, the pump was replaced and still the same result.
The 3/4 hp backup pump which has worked for some years?, fails and it's
temperature is climbing. None of the breakers in the AC main panel
completely cut the power to it, and the temperature on the outside of
the case is nearing 180F, I am forced to disconnect the wiring.
The boat's generator is 3 phase and the panel is 3 phase, but the
inverter is wired into all 3 phases... what? There are high voltages on
the neutral; does this have anything to do with the pump's problems, I
may never know.
The turbo charger housing splits open. The crack is visible because the
heat wrappings have not been installed correctly; if they had, the crack
would not have been visible and we would have continued on until the
engine might have been severely damaged. The crack is likely the result
of severe overheating, where the turbo was red hot. Most likely occurred
with one of the several previous owners. More hairline cracks were
discovered on close examination.
The turbo housing is attached to the exhaust line in such a way that
there is at least 50 pounds of weight hanging off the end of the turbo.
This makes about the 10th turbo failure I have encountered, they are
becoming more frequent. I could do without them.
The 12 volt DC panel is an AC type panel, but there is no indication
that the breakers are rated for DC. As I recall DC ratings are not the
same as AC ratings, Arild would know about this.
The owner was incredulous when I reported the turbo crack and just to
prove the point I sent him a picture taken with my cell phone, while we
were still 12 miles offshore. He did not know how to zoom in on the
picture as he is not computer savvy, but he is learning fast.
The anchor winch is hydraulic and so quick that it takes the reflexes of
a rattlesnake to manage the up and down and prevent it from tearing the
boat apart.
There are 2 automatic freon fire extinguishers in the engine room. Only
one is allowed as they may not fire in unison.
The engine stops without warning, caused by turning on the nav and
masthead lights at the same instant. There may be an automatically
resetting circuit breaker powering the entire pilothouse panel. In any
event the breaker takes about 15 minutes to reset. This problem is
repeatable, but not every time. Go figer. I try to demonstrate this to
the owner, the panel refuses to perform. Maybe it hates me. He thinks
it's hilarious. He can, you can't.
The engine stops because it requires DC power to keep the fuel solenoid
open. There is an emergency bypass where you turn a screw to force the
valve into the open position; a process which takes about 60 seconds.
Single engine boats should not be wired up in such a way as to allow
such a failure to endanger the boat.
This is not a complete list, but there must be a psychic message in all
this. I am not smart enough to sort it all out, maybe the rest of you
will learn something... that I haven't.
Regards,
Mike
Capt. Mike Maurice
Tigard Oregon(Near Portland)
Mike wrote:
The 12 volt DC panel is an AC type panel, but there is no indication
that the breakers are rated for DC. As I recall DC ratings are not the
same as AC ratings, Arild would know about this.
Capt. Mike Maurice
REPLY
ABYC standard clearly stat that all panels must be labelled with the
workign voltage. Panel should have ben labelled as being 12V DC or 24V DC
as applicable.
Mike is correct when it comes to pure thermal breakers such as you have in
houses ashore. These rely on wattage to heat up the thermal strip and
trip.
The magneto-hydraulic designs by Carlingswitch, Airpax, and Heinemann (sp)
to name three brands often found in marine panels are dual rated. A label
on the side of the breaker does clearly state when it is dual rated for
both AC and DC.
Arild
I by the way, did I forget to mention that the DC panel had a double
breaker to "protect" the alternator. Of course if it tripped when the
alternator was turning out power, the alternator would be toast?
I am almost certain the DC panel had regular household heat type
breakers. Which means the alternator breakers would trip below their
supposed rated levels and by by..
Yi...
Mike
Capt. Mike Maurice
Tigard Oregon(Near Portland)
Mike Maurice mikem@yachtsdelivered.com writes:
A brand new installed Rule Bilge pump that won't pump. There appears to
be nothing wrong with it. But, the voltage goes to zero when the on
switch is activated, but if it's a short the breaker is not tripping...
And it's wired with the correct polarity; just to stay a step ahead of
you super sleuths, the pump was replaced and still the same result.
I'd bet 99:1 that this was caused by a corroded fuse holder or a failed
breaker, resulting in a high-resistance connection. The quickest way to
detect this is to place a voltmeter across the fuse or breaker with the load
off. Voltage should be zero. The apply the load and see what the voltage is.
If it's anything other than zero you have found your culprit.
BTW, in my toolbox I carry a bunch of 18" leads with insulated alligator
clips on both ends. Radio Shack sells them for 75 cents each in ten-packs.
Get the larger ones, about 20 gauge. In a pinch you can use them to hook up
radios, bypass fuses, hold meter leads in place, and even jumper busted
starter keyswitches. Well worth the money. In this case you would just jumper
the bad fuse or breaker.
Scott Welch
FirstClass Product Manager
www.firstclass.com
"Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn
out." - John Wooden
Sorry, Scott. The entire (ENTIRE) pump installation was brand new;
wires, control panel and the usual suspects were rounded up and
interrogated. There were no confessions, even though the usual torture
was applied.
The owner would tell you that by the time I have taken a boat 1000 miles
that my problem solving is relentless. Any problem that I don't have
figured out usually takes a while to fix. He has an electrician going
over all this now and they still don't have the answers and it's been a
week since I left the boat.
If you recall I warned you that the list I posted was incomplete. Would
you like to hear about the knife switches that are double pole, the
battery charger that does not charge both banks, the grounds that switch
with the knife switches, the gremlin that lurks in the engine room and
hides when the lights are turned on?
I had a jumper cable bought and brought along just to be able to jumper
the 2 battery banks, so that I could switch battery banks without
turning off BOTH the gen set and main engine first. Knife switches don't
make before break; a good reason for not using them.
You can be sure that we took no chances with having this boat out in a
storm where all this could come to bite us good.
The boat wasn't highly dangerous, but I can "smell" trouble and one look
at the electrical system and I was convinced that it was a house of
cards to be treated with kid gloves and a lot of paranoia. My suspicions
were proved correct. All of our problems occurred under good conditions
and were fixed or bypassed without serious trouble. That might not have
occurred if it had been storming. We anchored or tied up several times
to avoid rough conditions.
There is a lesson in all this. Don't let small problem accumulate, don't
take chances if they are, if you can stop and fix things under good
conditions so you won't have to when they are bad.
Bye,
Mike
Capt. Mike Maurice
Tigard Oregon(Near Portland)