On Tuesday, August 25, 2020, 8:23:13 AM CDT, Andrew Anderson via mvus-list <mvus-list@lists.febo.com> wrote:  

Andrew     You have to be very careful about the limitations on that patent. A dipole antenna is simply a first order Fractal. A Log Periodic is a Fractal antenna and predates the patent by nearly 50 years. And I have had quite a few of the various pattern fractals on the antenna range and I an not impressed.   Fractals make interesting computer models, but poor antennas. The hype and the performance do not match. At the moment I an unaware of any commercial product actually using a 'fractal' antenna. Kent WA5VJB On Tuesday, August 25, 2020, 8:23:13 AM CDT, Andrew Anderson via mvus-list <mvus-list@lists.febo.com> wrote: Antennas that small are probably fractals. You don't see them in Amatuer use cuz it's a patented design and licensed almost exclusively to commercial manufacturers that can afford it. Supposedly wide band and a way to make antennas physically smaller. Cell phones use them to cover several bands with one antenna. Sam N8VES     On Tuesday, August 25, 2020, 7:56:44 AM EDT, KENT BRITAIN via mvus-list <mvus-list@lists.febo.com> wrote:    I have an antenna that was sent in for evaluation that ....."Splits the E and H field of the EM wave and propagates them    separately giving each signal diversity" Uhhhh .... an E field by itself, or the H field by itself doesn't propagate. Yes, with an EXTREME high Er dielectric you could make a patch antennathat small, but bandwidth would only be a few kHz......... I just might have to model that! Kent WA5VJB     On Monday, August 24, 2020, 11:45:08 PM CDT, Joe via mvus-list <mvus-list@lists.febo.com> wrote:  I see from the catalog in Trevor’s followup email that the Phantom Elite utilizes dual polarization, with a height of only 3.5 inches for two meters. But I don’t see the width dimension. Wonder if it is some type of spiral or patch antenna, with loading/matching for reduced size. That would be interesting to see how it performed on a test range, or better yet, see the modeling pattern. It sure would not appear to be close to a 1/4 wavelength vertical in gain pattern. Joe - WA8OGS > On Aug 24, 2020, at 2:41 PM, KENT BRITAIN <wa5vjb@flash.net> wrote: > > Hi Joe    I bet that peak gain is NOT a zero degrees.  >                At lobe at +30deg to the horizon may look good on an advertisement, >                when you leave out the angle, but it doesn't help you talk to a repeater. > > 73 Kent WA5VJB > > On Monday, August 24, 2020, 1:08:45 PM CDT, Joe via mvus-list <mvus-list@lists.febo.com> wrote: > > > Do I understand that they say 3dBi omnidirectional gain or unity gain and only 3.5” tall? > I guess I need that explained in more detail. > > Joe - WA8OGS > > > On Aug 24, 2020, at 1:44 PM, Trevor Clarke via mvus-list <mvus-list@lists.febo.com <mailto:mvus-list@lists.febo.com>> wrote: > > > > Ended up getting a cobra tri-band (2/1.25/0.7) antenna for my car. A > > possible future enhancement is to replace the tri-band with a triplexer and > > 3 antennas. I'm looking at the Laird Phantom Omni line and I'm wondering if > > anyone has experience with these? Except for the 70cm (only $30 for an NMO > > mount antenna) these are not terribly inexpensive...2m and 1.25m are $80 a > > piece, add in mounting hardware and I'm looking at $350-$400. They > > advertise 3dBi omnidirectional with a ground plane. The 2/1.25m do unity > > without a ground plane. The big appeal is the size, only 3.5" tall. > > > > -- > > Trevor R.H. Clarke > > Computer Science House > > Rochester Institute of Technology > > retrev@csh.rit.edu <mailto:retrev@csh.rit.edu> > > http://www.csh.rit.edu/~retrev/ <http://www.csh.rit.edu/~retrev/> > > _______________________________________________ > > mvus-list mailing list > > mvus-list@lists.febo.com <mailto:mvus-list@lists.febo.com> > > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list_lists.febo.com <http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list_lists.febo.com> > > > > _______________________________________________ > mvus-list mailing list > mvus-list@lists.febo.com <mailto:mvus-list@lists.febo.com> > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list_lists.febo.com <http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list_lists.febo.com> _______________________________________________ mvus-list mailing list mvus-list@lists.febo.com http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list_lists.febo.com   _______________________________________________ mvus-list mailing list mvus-list@lists.febo.com http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list_lists.febo.com   _______________________________________________ mvus-list mailing list mvus-list@lists.febo.com http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list_lists.febo.com

On Tuesday, August 25, 2020, 7:11:59 AM CDT, Trevor Clarke via mvus-list <mvus-list@lists.febo.com> wrote:  

OK, it is possible to dielectrcially load a 3 inch patch antenna to 2 Meters? Got close, my software would NOT accept a dielectric higher than Er = 99! Few solid dielectrics are higher than 10, and water is 80. But looking at the trend line you need a dielectric with an Er of about 150-160 andthe patch would have an edge impedance of nearly 2000 Ohms.  50 to 2000 would be a fun matching network. I think we can rule out a patch in that package! Kent Note: I have done an AMSAT 145 MHz patch antenna just for fun.         Used the aluminium foil coated foam board used to insulated walls.        yea, you need something 4 x 8 feet big for VHF patches! hihi On Tuesday, August 25, 2020, 7:11:59 AM CDT, Trevor Clarke via mvus-list <mvus-list@lists.febo.com> wrote: I noticed that bit of marketing gibberish too..luckily it's absent from the actual antenna data sheets. I become more curious about these antennas as they must be at least somewhat useful or they wouldn't likely sell many in the commercial world as it would mostly be radio companies buying and installing them in fleets and they'd likely see through the BS sooner rather than later. The TRA4103 and TRA4303 are in the 70cm band and run about $30. Next time there's a cal/measure event I might have to order one and see what it really does. On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 7:56 AM KENT BRITAIN via mvus-list < mvus-list@lists.febo.com> wrote: >  I have an antenna that was sent in for evaluation that ....."Splits the E > and H field of the EM wave and propagates them >    separately giving each signal diversity" > Uhhhh .... an E field by itself, or the H field by itself doesn't > propagate. > > Yes, with an EXTREME high Er dielectric you could make a patch antennathat > small, but bandwidth would only be a few kHz......... I just might have > to model that! > Kent WA5VJB > > >    On Monday, August 24, 2020, 11:45:08 PM CDT, Joe via mvus-list < > mvus-list@lists.febo.com> wrote: > >  I see from the catalog in Trevor’s followup email that the Phantom Elite > utilizes dual polarization, with a height of only 3.5 inches for two > meters. But I don’t see the width dimension. > Wonder if it is some type of spiral or patch antenna, with > loading/matching for reduced size. > > That would be interesting to see how it performed on a test range, or > better yet, see the modeling pattern. It sure would not appear to be close > to a 1/4 wavelength vertical in gain pattern. > > Joe - WA8OGS > > > On Aug 24, 2020, at 2:41 PM, KENT BRITAIN <wa5vjb@flash.net> wrote: > > > > Hi Joe    I bet that peak gain is NOT a zero degrees. > >                At lobe at +30deg to the horizon may look good on an > advertisement, > >                when you leave out the angle, but it doesn't help you > talk to a repeater. > > > > 73 Kent WA5VJB > > > > On Monday, August 24, 2020, 1:08:45 PM CDT, Joe via mvus-list < > mvus-list@lists.febo.com> wrote: > > > > > > Do I understand that they say 3dBi omnidirectional gain or unity gain > and only 3.5” tall? > > I guess I need that explained in more detail. > > > > Joe - WA8OGS > > > > > On Aug 24, 2020, at 1:44 PM, Trevor Clarke via mvus-list < > mvus-list@lists.febo.com <mailto:mvus-list@lists.febo.com>> wrote: > > > > > > Ended up getting a cobra tri-band (2/1.25/0.7) antenna for my car. A > > > possible future enhancement is to replace the tri-band with a > triplexer and > > > 3 antennas. I'm looking at the Laird Phantom Omni line and I'm > wondering if > > > anyone has experience with these? Except for the 70cm (only $30 for an > NMO > > > mount antenna) these are not terribly inexpensive...2m and 1.25m are > $80 a > > > piece, add in mounting hardware and I'm looking at $350-$400. They > > > advertise 3dBi omnidirectional with a ground plane. The 2/1.25m do > unity > > > without a ground plane. The big appeal is the size, only 3.5" tall. > > > > > > -- > > > Trevor R.H. Clarke > > > Computer Science House > > > Rochester Institute of Technology > > > retrev@csh.rit.edu <mailto:retrev@csh.rit.edu> > > > http://www.csh.rit.edu/~retrev/ <http://www.csh.rit.edu/~retrev/> > > > _______________________________________________ > > > mvus-list mailing list > > > mvus-list@lists.febo.com <mailto:mvus-list@lists.febo.com> > > > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list_lists.febo.com < > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list_lists.febo.com> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > mvus-list mailing list > > mvus-list@lists.febo.com <mailto:mvus-list@lists.febo.com> > > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list_lists.febo.com < > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list_lists.febo.com> > > _______________________________________________ > mvus-list mailing list > mvus-list@lists.febo.com > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list_lists.febo.com > > _______________________________________________ > mvus-list mailing list > mvus-list@lists.febo.com > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list_lists.febo.com > -- Trevor R.H. Clarke Computer Science House Rochester Institute of Technology retrev@csh.rit.edu http://www.csh.rit.edu/~retrev/ _______________________________________________ mvus-list mailing list mvus-list@lists.febo.com http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list_lists.febo.com

 On Tuesday, August 25, 2020, 7:11:59 AM CDT, Trevor Clarke via mvus-list <mvus-list@lists.febo.com> wrote:

On Monday, August 24, 2020, 11:45:08 PM CDT, Joe via mvus-list <

            when you leave out the angle, but it doesn't help you

Kent, I have seen a VHF (actually dual-band 150/400 MHz) patch antenna in one application: Ionospheric measurements from the Transit/NNSS navigation satellite constellation and sounding rockets that use a similar phase-coherent beacon design. That antenna is as big as a coffee table. I'm not certain exactly what motivated the design, but it's what they used... Fun analysis for sure...it's always good to have the analytical tools or "gut feeling" for outlandish claims! Thanks/73, --Ethan, K8GU. On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 9:46 AM KENT BRITAIN via mvus-list <mvus-list@lists.febo.com> wrote: > > OK, it is possible to dielectrcially load a 3 inch patch antenna to 2 Meters? > Got close, my software would NOT accept a dielectric higher than Er = 99! > Few solid dielectrics are higher than 10, and water is 80. > But looking at the trend line you need a dielectric with an Er of about 150-160 andthe patch would have an edge impedance of nearly 2000 Ohms. 50 to 2000 would > be a fun matching network. > > I think we can rule out a patch in that package! > Kent > Note: I have done an AMSAT 145 MHz patch antenna just for fun. Used the aluminium foil coated foam board used to insulated walls. yea, you need something 4 x 8 feet big for VHF patches! hihi > > On Tuesday, August 25, 2020, 7:11:59 AM CDT, Trevor Clarke via mvus-list <mvus-list@lists.febo.com> wrote: > > I noticed that bit of marketing gibberish too..luckily it's absent from the > actual antenna data sheets. I become more curious about these antennas as > they must be at least somewhat useful or they wouldn't likely sell many in > the commercial world as it would mostly be radio companies buying and > installing them in fleets and they'd likely see through the BS sooner > rather than later. > The TRA4103 and TRA4303 are in the 70cm band and run about $30. Next time > there's a cal/measure event I might have to order one and see what it > really does. > > On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 7:56 AM KENT BRITAIN via mvus-list < > mvus-list@lists.febo.com> wrote: > > > I have an antenna that was sent in for evaluation that ....."Splits the E > > and H field of the EM wave and propagates them > > separately giving each signal diversity" > > Uhhhh .... an E field by itself, or the H field by itself doesn't > > propagate. > > > > Yes, with an EXTREME high Er dielectric you could make a patch antennathat > > small, but bandwidth would only be a few kHz......... I just might have > > to model that! > > Kent WA5VJB > > > > > > On Monday, August 24, 2020, 11:45:08 PM CDT, Joe via mvus-list < > > mvus-list@lists.febo.com> wrote: > > > > I see from the catalog in Trevor’s followup email that the Phantom Elite > > utilizes dual polarization, with a height of only 3.5 inches for two > > meters. But I don’t see the width dimension. > > Wonder if it is some type of spiral or patch antenna, with > > loading/matching for reduced size. > > > > That would be interesting to see how it performed on a test range, or > > better yet, see the modeling pattern. It sure would not appear to be close > > to a 1/4 wavelength vertical in gain pattern. > > > > Joe - WA8OGS > > > > > On Aug 24, 2020, at 2:41 PM, KENT BRITAIN <wa5vjb@flash.net> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Joe I bet that peak gain is NOT a zero degrees. > > > At lobe at +30deg to the horizon may look good on an > > advertisement, > > > when you leave out the angle, but it doesn't help you > > talk to a repeater. > > > > > > 73 Kent WA5VJB > > > > > > On Monday, August 24, 2020, 1:08:45 PM CDT, Joe via mvus-list < > > mvus-list@lists.febo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Do I understand that they say 3dBi omnidirectional gain or unity gain > > and only 3.5” tall? > > > I guess I need that explained in more detail. > > > > > > Joe - WA8OGS > > > > > > > On Aug 24, 2020, at 1:44 PM, Trevor Clarke via mvus-list < > > mvus-list@lists.febo.com <mailto:mvus-list@lists.febo.com>> wrote: > > > > > > > > Ended up getting a cobra tri-band (2/1.25/0.7) antenna for my car. A > > > > possible future enhancement is to replace the tri-band with a > > triplexer and > > > > 3 antennas. I'm looking at the Laird Phantom Omni line and I'm > > wondering if > > > > anyone has experience with these? Except for the 70cm (only $30 for an > > NMO > > > > mount antenna) these are not terribly inexpensive...2m and 1.25m are > > $80 a > > > > piece, add in mounting hardware and I'm looking at $350-$400. They > > > > advertise 3dBi omnidirectional with a ground plane. The 2/1.25m do > > unity > > > > without a ground plane. The big appeal is the size, only 3.5" tall. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Trevor R.H. Clarke > > > > Computer Science House > > > > Rochester Institute of Technology > > > > retrev@csh.rit.edu <mailto:retrev@csh.rit.edu> > > > > http://www.csh.rit.edu/~retrev/ <http://www.csh.rit.edu/~retrev/> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > mvus-list mailing list > > > > mvus-list@lists.febo.com <mailto:mvus-list@lists.febo.com> > > > > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list_lists.febo.com < > > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list_lists.febo.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > mvus-list mailing list > > > mvus-list@lists.febo.com <mailto:mvus-list@lists.febo.com> > > > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list_lists.febo.com < > > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list_lists.febo.com> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > mvus-list mailing list > > mvus-list@lists.febo.com > > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list_lists.febo.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > mvus-list mailing list > > mvus-list@lists.febo.com > > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list_lists.febo.com > > > > > -- > Trevor R.H. Clarke > Computer Science House > Rochester Institute of Technology > retrev@csh.rit.edu > http://www.csh.rit.edu/~retrev/ > _______________________________________________ > mvus-list mailing list > mvus-list@lists.febo.com > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list_lists.febo.com > > _______________________________________________ > mvus-list mailing list > mvus-list@lists.febo.com > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list_lists.febo.com -- http://www.k8gu.com/ Repair. Re-use. Re-purpose. Recycle.

On Tuesday, August 25, 2020, 8:53:07 AM CDT, Ethan Miller K8GU <ethan@k8gu.com> wrote:  

Yep, it would need to be about that big. Physics is Physics! Kent On Tuesday, August 25, 2020, 8:53:07 AM CDT, Ethan Miller K8GU <ethan@k8gu.com> wrote: Kent, I have seen a VHF (actually dual-band 150/400 MHz) patch antenna in one application:  Ionospheric measurements from the Transit/NNSS navigation satellite constellation and sounding rockets that use a similar phase-coherent beacon design.  That antenna is as big as a coffee table.  I'm not certain exactly what motivated the design, but it's what they used... Fun analysis for sure...it's always good to have the analytical tools or "gut feeling" for outlandish claims! Thanks/73, --Ethan, K8GU. On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 9:46 AM KENT BRITAIN via mvus-list <mvus-list@lists.febo.com> wrote: > >  OK, it is possible to dielectrcially load a 3 inch patch antenna to 2 Meters? > Got close, my software would NOT accept a dielectric higher than Er = 99! > Few solid dielectrics are higher than 10, and water is 80. > But looking at the trend line you need a dielectric with an Er of about 150-160 andthe patch would have an edge impedance of nearly 2000 Ohms.  50 to 2000 would > be a fun matching network. > > I think we can rule out a patch in that package! > Kent > Note: I have done an AMSAT 145 MHz patch antenna just for fun.        Used the aluminium foil coated foam board used to insulated walls.        yea, you need something 4 x 8 feet big for VHF patches! hihi > >    On Tuesday, August 25, 2020, 7:11:59 AM CDT, Trevor Clarke via mvus-list <mvus-list@lists.febo.com> wrote: > >  I noticed that bit of marketing gibberish too..luckily it's absent from the > actual antenna data sheets. I become more curious about these antennas as > they must be at least somewhat useful or they wouldn't likely sell many in > the commercial world as it would mostly be radio companies buying and > installing them in fleets and they'd likely see through the BS sooner > rather than later. > The TRA4103 and TRA4303 are in the 70cm band and run about $30. Next time > there's a cal/measure event I might have to order one and see what it > really does. > > On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 7:56 AM KENT BRITAIN via mvus-list < > mvus-list@lists.febo.com> wrote: > > >  I have an antenna that was sent in for evaluation that ....."Splits the E > > and H field of the EM wave and propagates them > >    separately giving each signal diversity" > > Uhhhh .... an E field by itself, or the H field by itself doesn't > > propagate. > > > > Yes, with an EXTREME high Er dielectric you could make a patch antennathat > > small, but bandwidth would only be a few kHz......... I just might have > > to model that! > > Kent WA5VJB > > > > > >    On Monday, August 24, 2020, 11:45:08 PM CDT, Joe via mvus-list < > > mvus-list@lists.febo.com> wrote: > > > >  I see from the catalog in Trevor’s followup email that the Phantom Elite > > utilizes dual polarization, with a height of only 3.5 inches for two > > meters. But I don’t see the width dimension. > > Wonder if it is some type of spiral or patch antenna, with > > loading/matching for reduced size. > > > > That would be interesting to see how it performed on a test range, or > > better yet, see the modeling pattern. It sure would not appear to be close > > to a 1/4 wavelength vertical in gain pattern. > > > > Joe - WA8OGS > > > > > On Aug 24, 2020, at 2:41 PM, KENT BRITAIN <wa5vjb@flash.net> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Joe    I bet that peak gain is NOT a zero degrees. > > >                At lobe at +30deg to the horizon may look good on an > > advertisement, > > >                when you leave out the angle, but it doesn't help you > > talk to a repeater. > > > > > > 73 Kent WA5VJB > > > > > > On Monday, August 24, 2020, 1:08:45 PM CDT, Joe via mvus-list < > > mvus-list@lists.febo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Do I understand that they say 3dBi omnidirectional gain or unity gain > > and only 3.5” tall? > > > I guess I need that explained in more detail. > > > > > > Joe - WA8OGS > > > > > > > On Aug 24, 2020, at 1:44 PM, Trevor Clarke via mvus-list < > > mvus-list@lists.febo.com <mailto:mvus-list@lists.febo.com>> wrote: > > > > > > > > Ended up getting a cobra tri-band (2/1.25/0.7) antenna for my car. A > > > > possible future enhancement is to replace the tri-band with a > > triplexer and > > > > 3 antennas. I'm looking at the Laird Phantom Omni line and I'm > > wondering if > > > > anyone has experience with these? Except for the 70cm (only $30 for an > > NMO > > > > mount antenna) these are not terribly inexpensive...2m and 1.25m are > > $80 a > > > > piece, add in mounting hardware and I'm looking at $350-$400. They > > > > advertise 3dBi omnidirectional with a ground plane. The 2/1.25m do > > unity > > > > without a ground plane. The big appeal is the size, only 3.5" tall. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Trevor R.H. Clarke > > > > Computer Science House > > > > Rochester Institute of Technology > > > > retrev@csh.rit.edu <mailto:retrev@csh.rit.edu> > > > > http://www.csh.rit.edu/~retrev/ <http://www.csh.rit.edu/~retrev/> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > mvus-list mailing list > > > > mvus-list@lists.febo.com <mailto:mvus-list@lists.febo.com> > > > > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list_lists.febo.com < > > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list_lists.febo.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > mvus-list mailing list > > > mvus-list@lists.febo.com <mailto:mvus-list@lists.febo.com> > > > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list_lists.febo.com < > > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list_lists.febo.com> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > mvus-list mailing list > > mvus-list@lists.febo.com > > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list_lists.febo.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > mvus-list mailing list > > mvus-list@lists.febo.com > > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list_lists.febo.com > > > > > -- > Trevor R.H. Clarke > Computer Science House > Rochester Institute of Technology > retrev@csh.rit.edu > http://www.csh.rit.edu/~retrev/ > _______________________________________________ > mvus-list mailing list > mvus-list@lists.febo.com > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list_lists.febo.com > > _______________________________________________ > mvus-list mailing list > mvus-list@lists.febo.com > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list_lists.febo.com -- http://www.k8gu.com/ Repair.  Re-use.  Re-purpose.  Recycle.

On Tuesday, August 25, 2020, 8:53:50 AM CDT, Ethan Miller K8GU via mvus-list <mvus-list@lists.febo.com> wrote:  

On another point, individuals are free to use patents for personal use. It's when you start manufacturing and selling that you have to come to anunderstanding with the patent holder. The company pushing Fractal antennas show one in an old analog cell phoneon their website.  But I have never seen one in a commercial cell phone.Virtually all use Inverted F antennas though a new family of tuner chips are becoming popular.   Basically like an HF Autotuner  in a chip. Back to my other disasters!  73 Kent WA5VJB On Tuesday, August 25, 2020, 8:53:50 AM CDT, Ethan Miller K8GU via mvus-list <mvus-list@lists.febo.com> wrote: Kent, I have seen a VHF (actually dual-band 150/400 MHz) patch antenna in one application:  Ionospheric measurements from the Transit/NNSS navigation satellite constellation and sounding rockets that use a similar phase-coherent beacon design.  That antenna is as big as a coffee table.  I'm not certain exactly what motivated the design, but it's what they used... Fun analysis for sure...it's always good to have the analytical tools or "gut feeling" for outlandish claims! Thanks/73, --Ethan, K8GU. On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 9:46 AM KENT BRITAIN via mvus-list <mvus-list@lists.febo.com> wrote: > >  OK, it is possible to dielectrcially load a 3 inch patch antenna to 2 Meters? > Got close, my software would NOT accept a dielectric higher than Er = 99! > Few solid dielectrics are higher than 10, and water is 80. > But looking at the trend line you need a dielectric with an Er of about 150-160 andthe patch would have an edge impedance of nearly 2000 Ohms.  50 to 2000 would > be a fun matching network. > > I think we can rule out a patch in that package! > Kent > Note: I have done an AMSAT 145 MHz patch antenna just for fun.        Used the aluminium foil coated foam board used to insulated walls.        yea, you need something 4 x 8 feet big for VHF patches! hihi > >    On Tuesday, August 25, 2020, 7:11:59 AM CDT, Trevor Clarke via mvus-list <mvus-list@lists.febo.com> wrote: > >  I noticed that bit of marketing gibberish too..luckily it's absent from the > actual antenna data sheets. I become more curious about these antennas as > they must be at least somewhat useful or they wouldn't likely sell many in > the commercial world as it would mostly be radio companies buying and > installing them in fleets and they'd likely see through the BS sooner > rather than later. > The TRA4103 and TRA4303 are in the 70cm band and run about $30. Next time > there's a cal/measure event I might have to order one and see what it > really does. > > On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 7:56 AM KENT BRITAIN via mvus-list < > mvus-list@lists.febo.com> wrote: > > >  I have an antenna that was sent in for evaluation that ....."Splits the E > > and H field of the EM wave and propagates them > >    separately giving each signal diversity" > > Uhhhh .... an E field by itself, or the H field by itself doesn't > > propagate. > > > > Yes, with an EXTREME high Er dielectric you could make a patch antennathat > > small, but bandwidth would only be a few kHz......... I just might have > > to model that! > > Kent WA5VJB > > > > > >    On Monday, August 24, 2020, 11:45:08 PM CDT, Joe via mvus-list < > > mvus-list@lists.febo.com> wrote: > > > >  I see from the catalog in Trevor’s followup email that the Phantom Elite > > utilizes dual polarization, with a height of only 3.5 inches for two > > meters. But I don’t see the width dimension. > > Wonder if it is some type of spiral or patch antenna, with > > loading/matching for reduced size. > > > > That would be interesting to see how it performed on a test range, or > > better yet, see the modeling pattern. It sure would not appear to be close > > to a 1/4 wavelength vertical in gain pattern. > > > > Joe - WA8OGS > > > > > On Aug 24, 2020, at 2:41 PM, KENT BRITAIN <wa5vjb@flash.net> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Joe    I bet that peak gain is NOT a zero degrees. > > >                At lobe at +30deg to the horizon may look good on an > > advertisement, > > >                when you leave out the angle, but it doesn't help you > > talk to a repeater. > > > > > > 73 Kent WA5VJB > > > > > > On Monday, August 24, 2020, 1:08:45 PM CDT, Joe via mvus-list < > > mvus-list@lists.febo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Do I understand that they say 3dBi omnidirectional gain or unity gain > > and only 3.5” tall? > > > I guess I need that explained in more detail. > > > > > > Joe - WA8OGS > > > > > > > On Aug 24, 2020, at 1:44 PM, Trevor Clarke via mvus-list < > > mvus-list@lists.febo.com <mailto:mvus-list@lists.febo.com>> wrote: > > > > > > > > Ended up getting a cobra tri-band (2/1.25/0.7) antenna for my car. A > > > > possible future enhancement is to replace the tri-band with a > > triplexer and > > > > 3 antennas. I'm looking at the Laird Phantom Omni line and I'm > > wondering if > > > > anyone has experience with these? Except for the 70cm (only $30 for an > > NMO > > > > mount antenna) these are not terribly inexpensive...2m and 1.25m are > > $80 a > > > > piece, add in mounting hardware and I'm looking at $350-$400. They > > > > advertise 3dBi omnidirectional with a ground plane. The 2/1.25m do > > unity > > > > without a ground plane. The big appeal is the size, only 3.5" tall. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Trevor R.H. Clarke > > > > Computer Science House > > > > Rochester Institute of Technology > > > > retrev@csh.rit.edu <mailto:retrev@csh.rit.edu> > > > > http://www.csh.rit.edu/~retrev/ <http://www.csh.rit.edu/~retrev/> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > mvus-list mailing list > > > > mvus-list@lists.febo.com <mailto:mvus-list@lists.febo.com> > > > > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list_lists.febo.com < > > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list_lists.febo.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > mvus-list mailing list > > > mvus-list@lists.febo.com <mailto:mvus-list@lists.febo.com> > > > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list_lists.febo.com < > > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list_lists.febo.com> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > mvus-list mailing list > > mvus-list@lists.febo.com > > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list_lists.febo.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > mvus-list mailing list > > mvus-list@lists.febo.com > > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list_lists.febo.com > > > > > -- > Trevor R.H. Clarke > Computer Science House > Rochester Institute of Technology > retrev@csh.rit.edu > http://www.csh.rit.edu/~retrev/ > _______________________________________________ > mvus-list mailing list > mvus-list@lists.febo.com > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list_lists.febo.com > > _______________________________________________ > mvus-list mailing list > mvus-list@lists.febo.com > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list_lists.febo.com -- http://www.k8gu.com/ Repair.  Re-use.  Re-purpose.  Recycle. _______________________________________________ mvus-list mailing list mvus-list@lists.febo.com http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list_lists.febo.com

  On Tuesday, August 25, 2020, 8:53:50 AM CDT, Ethan Miller K8GU via mvus-list <mvus-list@lists.febo.com> wrote:

Sorry, but that's not true. There's no personal-use exception for patents in the U.S. (there is in some other countries). There are court cases authorizing "experimental use" but that is extremely narrowly defined. But the reality is no one is going to come after an individual for patent infringement because there isn't any money in it. So as a practical matter, there's about zero risk in personal use of a patented invention. But that's real life, not the law. John ---- On 8/25/20 10:04 AM, KENT BRITAIN via mvus-list wrote: > On another point, individuals are free to use patents for personal use. > It's when you start manufacturing and selling that you have to come to anunderstanding with the patent holder. > The company pushing Fractal antennas show one in an old analog cell phoneon their website.  But I have never seen one in a commercial cell phone.Virtually all use Inverted F antennas though a new family of tuner chips are becoming popular.   Basically like an HF Autotuner  in a chip. > Back to my other disasters!  73 Kent WA5VJB > > On Tuesday, August 25, 2020, 8:53:50 AM CDT, Ethan Miller K8GU via mvus-list <mvus-list@lists.febo.com> wrote: > > Kent, > > I have seen a VHF (actually dual-band 150/400 MHz) patch antenna in > one application:  Ionospheric measurements from the Transit/NNSS > navigation satellite constellation and sounding rockets that use a > similar phase-coherent beacon design.  That antenna is as big as a > coffee table.  I'm not certain exactly what motivated the design, but > it's what they used... > > Fun analysis for sure...it's always good to have the analytical tools > or "gut feeling" for outlandish claims! > > Thanks/73, > > --Ethan, K8GU. > > On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 9:46 AM KENT BRITAIN via mvus-list > <mvus-list@lists.febo.com> wrote: >> >>   OK, it is possible to dielectrcially load a 3 inch patch antenna to 2 Meters? >> Got close, my software would NOT accept a dielectric higher than Er = 99! >> Few solid dielectrics are higher than 10, and water is 80. >> But looking at the trend line you need a dielectric with an Er of about 150-160 andthe patch would have an edge impedance of nearly 2000 Ohms.  50 to 2000 would >> be a fun matching network. >> >> I think we can rule out a patch in that package! >> Kent >> Note: I have done an AMSAT 145 MHz patch antenna just for fun.        Used the aluminium foil coated foam board used to insulated walls.        yea, you need something 4 x 8 feet big for VHF patches! hihi >> >>     On Tuesday, August 25, 2020, 7:11:59 AM CDT, Trevor Clarke via mvus-list <mvus-list@lists.febo.com> wrote: >> >>   I noticed that bit of marketing gibberish too..luckily it's absent from the >> actual antenna data sheets. I become more curious about these antennas as >> they must be at least somewhat useful or they wouldn't likely sell many in >> the commercial world as it would mostly be radio companies buying and >> installing them in fleets and they'd likely see through the BS sooner >> rather than later. >> The TRA4103 and TRA4303 are in the 70cm band and run about $30. Next time >> there's a cal/measure event I might have to order one and see what it >> really does. >> >> On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 7:56 AM KENT BRITAIN via mvus-list < >> mvus-list@lists.febo.com> wrote: >> >>>   I have an antenna that was sent in for evaluation that ....."Splits the E >>> and H field of the EM wave and propagates them >>>     separately giving each signal diversity" >>> Uhhhh .... an E field by itself, or the H field by itself doesn't >>> propagate. >>> >>> Yes, with an EXTREME high Er dielectric you could make a patch antennathat >>> small, but bandwidth would only be a few kHz......... I just might have >>> to model that! >>> Kent WA5VJB >>> >>> >>>     On Monday, August 24, 2020, 11:45:08 PM CDT, Joe via mvus-list < >>> mvus-list@lists.febo.com> wrote: >>> >>>   I see from the catalog in Trevor’s followup email that the Phantom Elite >>> utilizes dual polarization, with a height of only 3.5 inches for two >>> meters. But I don’t see the width dimension. >>> Wonder if it is some type of spiral or patch antenna, with >>> loading/matching for reduced size. >>> >>> That would be interesting to see how it performed on a test range, or >>> better yet, see the modeling pattern. It sure would not appear to be close >>> to a 1/4 wavelength vertical in gain pattern. >>> >>> Joe - WA8OGS >>> >>>> On Aug 24, 2020, at 2:41 PM, KENT BRITAIN <wa5vjb@flash.net> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Joe    I bet that peak gain is NOT a zero degrees. >>>>                 At lobe at +30deg to the horizon may look good on an >>> advertisement, >>>>                 when you leave out the angle, but it doesn't help you >>> talk to a repeater. >>>> >>>> 73 Kent WA5VJB >>>> >>>> On Monday, August 24, 2020, 1:08:45 PM CDT, Joe via mvus-list < >>> mvus-list@lists.febo.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Do I understand that they say 3dBi omnidirectional gain or unity gain >>> and only 3.5” tall? >>>> I guess I need that explained in more detail. >>>> >>>> Joe - WA8OGS >>>> >>>>> On Aug 24, 2020, at 1:44 PM, Trevor Clarke via mvus-list < >>> mvus-list@lists.febo.com <mailto:mvus-list@lists.febo.com>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Ended up getting a cobra tri-band (2/1.25/0.7) antenna for my car. A >>>>> possible future enhancement is to replace the tri-band with a >>> triplexer and >>>>> 3 antennas. I'm looking at the Laird Phantom Omni line and I'm >>> wondering if >>>>> anyone has experience with these? Except for the 70cm (only $30 for an >>> NMO >>>>> mount antenna) these are not terribly inexpensive...2m and 1.25m are >>> $80 a >>>>> piece, add in mounting hardware and I'm looking at $350-$400. They >>>>> advertise 3dBi omnidirectional with a ground plane. The 2/1.25m do >>> unity >>>>> without a ground plane. The big appeal is the size, only 3.5" tall. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Trevor R.H. Clarke >>>>> Computer Science House >>>>> Rochester Institute of Technology >>>>> retrev@csh.rit.edu <mailto:retrev@csh.rit.edu> >>>>> http://www.csh.rit.edu/~retrev/ <http://www.csh.rit.edu/~retrev/> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> mvus-list mailing list >>>>> mvus-list@lists.febo.com <mailto:mvus-list@lists.febo.com> >>>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list_lists.febo.com < >>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list_lists.febo.com> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> mvus-list mailing list >>>> mvus-list@lists.febo.com <mailto:mvus-list@lists.febo.com> >>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list_lists.febo.com < >>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list_lists.febo.com> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> mvus-list mailing list >>> mvus-list@lists.febo.com >>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list_lists.febo.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> mvus-list mailing list >>> mvus-list@lists.febo.com >>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list_lists.febo.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Trevor R.H. Clarke >> Computer Science House >> Rochester Institute of Technology >> retrev@csh.rit.edu >> http://www.csh.rit.edu/~retrev/ >> _______________________________________________ >> mvus-list mailing list >> mvus-list@lists.febo.com >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list_lists.febo.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> mvus-list mailing list >> mvus-list@lists.febo.com >> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/mvus-list_lists.febo.com > > >