At 01:45 PM 7/1/02, you wrote:

Joe,
I don't usually snip the whole article, this is an exception.

I think your post above proves my point. But in case it is not clear.
Keep all these human failings in mind when dealing with the "officials".
If you sense a mistake occurring, don't waste time, get it clarified.

If their questions are interfering with your problem solving, tell them.
Don't be bashful. And, if you think the actions being proposed or taken are
a bad fit for the conditions as
you actually have on scene, make your concerns known.

Regards,

Capt. Mike Maurice
Near Portland Oregon.

Hi Mike:

I cannot disagree with your experiences regards to radio protocol.  I
had the pleasure of spending a day at the radio "C" school in Petaluma
CA a few months ago and watched how they were trained.

The operators, commanders, whatever level, have no latitude at all as to
how they must handle message traffic including SAR calls.  The steps
they go through, the questions that they must ask, are not optional.
There are good reasons for this but some of the primary ones are:

They must deal with all levels of callers experience at one common level
for them.  I can see where this might be annoying to a very experienced
skipper.

They must cover all contingencies for liability reasons.  Much of this
protocol is written by risk-management people.

The protocol has been developed over many years of "lessons learned" and
does not always fit every circumstance.

You do realize that the USCG radio Watchstander might be 19 years old,
alone in a darkened room someplace on land, with a set of instructions
and may have never been on a boat before.  You can see how this could
frustrate experienced skippers.  I have thrown down the microphone in
disgust myself.  Non-the-less the Watchstander has been well trained to
handle simultaneous, multiple emergencies on the radio as long as they
stick to their protocol.  They are certainly doing the best they can.
And I can tell you from personal experience that developing a
situational picture in my imagination, of what is really going on out
there, is not easy.  It takes a lot of questions.

Along the coast on a weekday or at night you might be talking to an
Auxiliarist or Reserve who has had less practical training and is still
learning the ropes.  A SAR is very scary to an inexperienced
Watchstander who is trying to comprehend the situation.  One part of
your mind is trying to do the right thing and another is trying to
comply with the rules.  All this is driven by lack of funding.  It's
better to have someone than no one and the Watchstander can always "push
the button" and get experienced help.

Incidentally, you will experience this same conundrum if you call 911,
or if you declare an emergency as a airplane pilot.  They responder will
drop into the standard emergency protocol and begin asking a lot of
seemingly irrelevant questions.  That's what they must do.

I agree with your approach of cell phone and pre-coordination, etc.  But
you are not the rule out there, you are the exception.  The CG cannot
staff up and train for the exception.  The taxpayers won't pay for that
and probably shouldn't.

Incidentally, the USCG has developed a lot of flexibility when it comes
to evaluating on-scene tactical decisions including listening intently
to anyone, rating, seaman or officer or you, who has had some experience
and has an opinion.  This came about from incidents where an
inexperienced officer took command of a situation that was beyond his
experience and then screwed up.  The other participants felt they had no
right to questions his decisions.

The loss of the fishing vessel being towed over the Newport bar a few
years ago, where several (including CG) died, is a classic case of this.
That said, there are still officers out there who feel they have the
only valid opinion and there are still ratings out there that would not
challenge an officer.  We're working on that every day. It's going to
take a while.

Joe Engel

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Maurice [mailto:mikem@yachtsdelivered.com]
Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 6:48 AM
To: Joe Engel
Cc: trawler-world-list@samurai.com
Subject: Re: TWL: RE: tax payer towing services

At 11:17 AM 7/1/02, you wrote:

Joe,
I do not disagree with your facts. And the training is very
good(better),
but in actual on the scene situations the level of mistakes leaves very
much to be desired.

Your experience with this is much shorter than mine and I am working
with
these people up and down the coast constantly.

I can not imagine why I should be bowled over by your conclusions
anymore
than I am lulled into complacency by images of invincibility that many
people have about the CG. I see the entire system from the radio
operators
to the actual on scene rescue people. The level of mistakes in such a
system is pretty constant. The radio operators are a major source of
problems. I never take at face value what I get from them unless I know
that they are senior personnel. I have almost endless stories about this

sort of thing. These stories go back 40 years and I have butted heads
with
everybody from base commanders on down, and I have rarely been wrong.

Part of the problem is that the CG people get intensive training and it
in
itself can get in the way. They have a fixed set of equipment to use and

train with. If the problem at hand can't be solved in the "usual way",
the
entire rescue op can stall. I have seen this happen many times.

If I have anything tricky to coordinate with CG personnel, I am real
careful to identify who I am dealing with, their rating and if necessary
I
even badger them as to their level of EXPERIENCE. I generally only get
resistance from inexperienced people and I take my cue from that. I have
no
hesitancy to ask to speak with someone more senior and I don't wait
until I
am angry. If there are lives or welfare at stake the time to act is now,

not later.

The present system of questions that CG radio operators tend to go
through
can be dangerous at times, as they can keep you so tied up on the radio
that you can't tend to the emergency. This is a constant problem and it
is
real hard to break them of the tendency. This particular problem has
been
brought up a couple of times on this forum, but only  described in a
vague
sort of way. I have been meaning to bring the issue out very plainly as
it
has caused me enough problem on occasion that I have come near to
blowing
my cool over it. In one instance at Brookings Oregon they came back and
apologized and of their own accord, suggested that we call them, instead
of
the other way around. Everybody should realize that they are just trying
to
be helpful, but if they are keeping you from problem solving the
emergency,
then suggest as kindly as you can under the circumstances to back off
and
wait for your requests.

If I have an especially embarrassing subject to drop on them, or
something
I think will result in a major debate, I will use the cell phone to make

the call, if possible. I try to avoid having them look bad over the
public
airwaves as it can make it more difficult to get cooperation.

Sometimes, particularly in the winter if I think the next bar crossing
is
going to be tricky, I will call ahead and make plans with an experienced

officer who will be on duty when we get there. I will go thru plan "A"
and
plan "B" with them and make sure they have a heads up, so that if we
don't
have time for further extensive discussion, they will already be
informed
as to intentions and capabilities. I don't want to get there, have
problems
and be trying to get some inexperienced low life, tuned in, while I am
at risk.

Don't get me wrong, the people who have been trained as surfmen are well

able to do the tasks for which they have been trained. But, that is only

one piece of a much larger puzzle,  and I don't have any vested interest
in
overlooking CG shortcomings, so I call it like I see it.

Regards,
Mike

Capt. Mike Maurice
Near Portland Oregon.

Joe Engel wrote:

how they must handle message traffic including SAR calls. The steps

This may be an urban (marine?) legend, but as the story goes, a boater in a
crowded seaway in Puget Sound called in a Mayday. The CG responded and asked
the nature of the emergency. The boater replied that his boat was on fire.
The CG began to ask all those necessary questions such as number of souls
onboard. The boater was plainly becoming exasperated when he was asked to
describe his vessel. "It's the one with all the f***ing smoke coming out of
it," he screamed.

Zeke Anderson
Kerrville, TX

[demime 0.99c.8 removed an attachment of type image/gif]

At 04:10 PM 07/01/2002 -0500, Zeke Anderson wrote:

Not of any real value to topic but:

On a trip up the ICW awhile ago we heard a call to the USCG on 16 from a
boater that had found a small boat floating in the waterway.  Over the next
two hours we listened to the most inane and repetative list of questions
from the CG to the boater.  This guy was just trying to get the lost boat
secured so he could continue his trip up the waterway, but this guy on the
radio kept asking the most detailed questions most of which had nothing to
do with the situation. (the size of this guys boat , how many SOB's (soals
of board), were they wearing PSD's, (honest to god, he asked if the the guy
was anchored)  I finnally got on the radio and told the guy to shoot the
boat so it would sink and not become a HTN (Hazard to Navigation).
(Margaret was below so she could not hear me, so I didn't get yelled at)
He didn't answer... after two hours of this nonsense we finnally were out
of radio range. I often wonder if this poor guy was ever able to resume his
trip.

On another time up in Palm Beach I was listening to the USCG talking to a
boater about a problem but the boater could not really understand what the
CG "youngster" was saying. Everytime time CG would transmit you could hear
an AM/FM radio playing LOUD "Rock and Roll" in the background.  (It was
sunday and I would assume that the OD was not around ..  hummm maybe he was
the OD) ...jd
Joe DellaFera / Margaret Murray
36' Prairie  DC "Prairie Star"
Pompano Beach, Fl.