Hi

Well that raises a question that I decided not to put in the original poll. I was trying to keep things from going to many directions at once. So here's the second poll question:

On the same project ($250 to $500) / three complex chips / same objective:

If you could get it assembled as a "semi kit" for another $100 - would you pay the money or would you build it yourself?

For the sake of the poll, it's an un-tested board with all the hard stuff (SMT) done. What's left are hand solder parts (connectors, big regulators etc). Not quite 1950's assembly, but certainly nothing more than your Heathkit asked you to do. Also not a lot of it.

Of course I have no idea if the $100 is the right number. It could be high, it could be low. Since it's a short run, I suspect the "per run" charges (machine setup and screens) will be a significant part of what would be paid. Rather than fine tuning that number, lets just go with it for right now.

Bob

On Mar 25, 2011, at 7:44 PM, Douglas H Reed wrote:

Buy.

David

SatSignal software - quality software written to your requirements
Web:  http://www.satsignal.eu
Email:  david-taylor@blueyonder.co.uk

See what I wrote on my blog sometime ago "Is there a rule of thumb for
estimating the cost of getting circuit boards assembled?".

http://blog.designer-iii.com/contract_manufacturer/20090616-211514-Is-there-a-rule-of-thumb-for-estimating-the-cost-of-getting-circuit-boards-assembled

There are design-for-manufacture tips that few ever think of that can
lower costs.  For example if you are using a 0.1uF cap. all of those
caps should be placed on the same side of the board.
Some CM's will run one side of the board on one machine, and the other
side of the board on the other.  If the same part is on both sides the
set up fee is higher because you have to move the reel of parts
between machines.

Also things like don't put 0402 parts between, comparatively, huge
tantalum capacitors, because you would have to switch vacuum nozzles.

--
http://blog.softwaresafety.net/
http://www.designer-iii.com/
http://www.wearablesmartsensors.com/

On the subject of manufacture and design for volume, Dave Jones from EEVblog did
I nice vid on that some time ago...

http://www.eevblog.com/2010/11/15/eevblog-127-pcb-design-for-manufacture-tutorial/

----- Original Message ----
From: Bob Paddock bob.paddock@gmail.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Sat, March 26, 2011 2:55:57 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Commercial Assembly - Poll

See what I wrote on my blog sometime ago "Is there a rule of thumb for
estimating the cost of getting circuit boards assembled?".

http://blog.designer-iii.com/contract_manufacturer/20090616-211514-Is-there-a-rule-of-thumb-for-estimating-the-cost-of-getting-circuit-boards-assembled

There are design-for-manufacture tips that few ever think of that can
lower costs.  For example if you are using a 0.1uF cap. all of those
caps should be placed on the same side of the board.
Some CM's will run one side of the board on one machine, and the other
side of the board on the other.  If the same part is on both sides the
set up fee is higher because you have to move the reel of parts
between machines.

Also things like don't put 0402 parts between, comparatively, huge
tantalum capacitors, because you would have to switch vacuum nozzles.

--
http://blog.softwaresafety.net/
http://www.designer-iii.com/
http://www.wearablesmartsensors.com/

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Ooops, forgot to answer the actual poll. sorry about that.

$250-$500 project size. An extra $100 for electrical test & assembly of the
entire board: yes

An extra $100 for just the 3 tricky IC's and then have to do the other 70+ parts
anyway: no.
(Well, maybe, but make it $60 and it better be really cool bga's.)

On the subject of "what kind of extras that makes projects easier would you pay
for"... a good quality solder stencil would do the trick for such a project
size.

regards,
Fred

----- Original Message ----
From: Bob Camp lists@rtty.us
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Sat, March 26, 2011 1:44:33 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Commercial Assembly - Poll

Hi

Well that raises a question that I decided not to put in the original poll. I
was trying to keep things from going to many directions at once. So here's the
second poll question:

On the same project ($250 to $500) / three complex chips / same objective:

If you could get it assembled as a "semi kit" for another $100 - would you pay
the money or would you build it yourself?

For the sake of the poll, it's an un-tested board with all the hard stuff (SMT)
done. What's left are hand solder parts (connectors, big regulators etc). Not
quite 1950's assembly, but certainly nothing more than your Heathkit asked you
to do. Also not a lot of it.

Of course I have no idea if the $100 is the right number. It could be high, it
could be low. Since it's a short run, I suspect the "per run" charges (machine
setup and screens) will be a significant part of what would be paid. Rather than
fine tuning that number, lets just go with it for right now.

Bob

On Mar 25, 2011, at 7:44 PM, Douglas H Reed wrote:

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Bob,

This is suppose to be a high "signal" - to - "noise" list.  That means it is not loaded with unnecessary traffic.

These polls are just that, a lot of noise.  The reason is they produce nothing of value and clog the email input of those who chose to receive the Timenuts list messages as they are sent in.

Perhaps you could construct a web site where such polls could be done.  Please have some compassion for the original intent of the list and a good many of us that are not interested such germane issues that clearly spread all over the map.

thank you,

Bill....WB6BNQ

Bob Camp wrote:

The last thing I want to do is to start a flame war but I must respectfully
disagree with WB6BNQ.  The volume of responses that this poll has elicited
amply demonstrates that it is of broad interest to the membership.  That,
alone, justifies its existence.  What I have found when people start
grumbling about the S/N ratio on a list of this type is that usually they
are unhappy because the topic that is passingly dominating the discussion is
one that holds for them no personal interest.  It is for such circumstances
that God hath given unto us, his faithful servants, the delete key...

Another Bill

On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 5:23 PM, WB6BNQ wb6bnq@cox.net wrote:

Well put. One man's noise is another man's signal... Just apply filter where
applicable.

----- Original Message ----
From: William H. Fite omniryx@gmail.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Sat, March 26, 2011 10:40:20 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] * * * BOB CAMP - YOUR POLLS * * *

The last thing I want to do is to start a flame war but I must respectfully
disagree with WB6BNQ.  The volume of responses that this poll has elicited
amply demonstrates that it is of broad interest to the membership.  That,
alone, justifies its existence.  What I have found when people start
grumbling about the S/N ratio on a list of this type is that usually they
are unhappy because the topic that is passingly dominating the discussion is
one that holds for them no personal interest.  It is for such circumstances
that God hath given unto us, his faithful servants, the delete key...

Another Bill

On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 5:23 PM, WB6BNQ wb6bnq@cox.net wrote:

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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and follow the instructions there.

Knowing that I somewhat contradict myself by posting, I agree with Bill.

Anyone who is capable of contemplating projects with such high-tech
parts ought to be able to find a way to conduct a poll that doesn't
require hundreds of people seeing every response over a period of
several days.

I've commented on S/N degradation of this list before. It continues.

On 3/26/2011 2:23 PM, WB6BNQ wrote:

Bob may be going somewhere with this.  Let's give him a bit more rope. :)

-- john, KE5FX

Gee Bill Fite,

I am sorry to pop your bubble on my "presumed" purpose.  Your
assumptions are wrong.  Being 65 years old and failing eye sight, I
would most definitely prefer to have a completed, or mostly completed
board for any project.

What you and others have failed to notice is the population shift of
the list since its inception.

Those who started the list were some very high caliber individuals who
have all but disappeared.  These individuals no longer provide the
insight of their vast knowledge and experience that was once available
on this list.  Just a couple of few remain and seldom post or respond.

Why do you suppose that is ?

Not that they minded answering the "newbie" basic questions, no, I
suspect the reason is the quality of the general discussions have
diminished from the intent of the list.  I suspect that it is from not
a few responses to a question, but the endless suggestions that seem to
go down hill as the responses continue to the original post.

Discussion of a project should be from the perspective that one is
actually going to do the project and may have some well placed
questions to help himself achieve his end goals and complete the
project.  Merely to TROLL a project discussion in hopes someone else
will take up the cause is clearly out of place.  That has happened on
the list.

Concerning projects, a few have been really worthwhile.  However, not
much discussion  about them until they were, or mostly so, completed
and sometimes offered to the list.  The discussions that have happened
regarding these specific projects were not general drivel.

My interests here are not to diminish one's involvement, per se, just
to point out the reason the list seems to have lost its most valued
members and elucidative discussions.  The following cliche may well
seem mean spirited and elitists, but if you think about it, it
illustrates the point of those high caliber individuals who have fallen
silent.

"It is hard to soar with the eagles when you're flying with a bunch of
turkeys."

Think of it as tough love !  Treat the list as a classroom instead of
the playground.

Bill....WB6BNQ

"William H. Fite" wrote:

 The last thing I want to do is to start a flame war but I must
 respectfully disagree with WB6BNQ.  The volume of responses that
 this poll has elicited amply demonstrates that it is of broad
 interest to the membership.  That, alone, justifies its existence.
 What I have found when people start grumbling about the S/N ratio on
 a list of this type is that usually they are unhappy because the
 topic that is passingly dominating the discussion is one that holds
 for them no personal interest.  It is for such circumstances that
 God hath given unto us, his faithful servants, the delete key...

 Another Bill

On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 5:23 PM, WB6BNQ <[1]wb6bnq@cox.net> wrote:

 Bob,

 This is suppose to be a high "signal" - to - "noise" list.  That
 means it is not loaded with unnecessary traffic.

 These polls are just that, a lot of noise.  The reason is they
 produce nothing of value and clog the email input of those who chose
 to receive the Timenuts list messages as they are sent in.

 Perhaps you could construct a web site where such polls could be
 done.  Please have some compassion for the original intent of the
 list and a good many of us that are not interested such germane
 issues that clearly spread all over the map.

 thank you,

 Bill....WB6BNQ

 Bob Camp wrote:

 original poll. I was trying to keep things from going to many
 directions at once. So here's the second poll question:

 objective:

 would you pay the money or would you build it yourself?

 hard stuff (SMT) done. What's left are hand solder parts
 (connectors, big regulators etc). Not quite 1950's assembly, but
 certainly nothing more than your Heathkit asked you to do. Also not
 a lot of it.

 be high, it could be low. Since it's a short run, I suspect the "per
 run" charges (machine setup and screens) will be a significant part
 of what would be paid. Rather than fine tuning that number, lets
 just go with it for right now.

 toaster

 solder

 to have

 and I

 volume

 assembled and

 project,

 used for

 Please

 Purchasing

 runs

 these

 always

 SoftRock

 Spec-an

 the

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Hi

Actually the whole idea was to decrease the signal to noise. We have lots of project ideas come up. Each time the whole issue of parts that can / should / could / might / may be used is hashed out in great detail. Much of it revolves around assembly issues. However it's tough to sort out the assembly / parts comments from the "don't need one of those" replies.

If there's information about what people want / wish / can do ahead of time - that makes the whole project process a lot easier. If the information is out for everybody to look at, the whole "spin" thing on the results is minimized. If this is all done off list and then simply reported in three lines, it's fine for me. Not much use to the list as a whole.

If indeed having this go on for less than one day on the list is to "non technical" for the group as a whole - I'm quite surprised. To me it appears that we head off on things far less related than this for far longer. The original comment appears to me to be a personal attack.

Bob

On Mar 26, 2011, at 6:33 PM, John Miles wrote:

On Sat, 26 Mar 2011 08:44:33 -0400
Bob Camp lists@rtty.us wrote:

I'd pay. Saving a day of work for $100 is a good deal, IMHO.

And, if done in larger lots than just 10-20, i'm quite sure you can
get the assembly to less than $100, but then you'd have to optimize
the design for easy assembly instead of hand soldering.

		Attila Kinali

--
The trouble with you, Shev, is you don't say anything until you've saved
up a whole truckload of damned heavy brick arguments and then you dump
them all out and never look at the bleeding body mangled beneath the heap
-- Tirin, The Dispossessed, U. Le Guin