Creating a D.I.Y Rubidium Atomic Clock
Hello, my name is Leo, and I was wondering about the feasibility of
creating a simple rubidium atomic clock at home, and good places to source
parts for this sort of project. I was also wondering what instruments and
specialized knowledge would be required depending on how pre-built the
parts are, for example, the prerequisite knowledge for creating PLL(s) for
both frequency division to provide an output and also to modulate the input
of the microwave oscillator. Any good resources or PDFs would be greatly
appreciated, as I am very new to frequency analysis and phase manipulation
in general. I was also hoping to keep the cost of the project soft-line
below 500$, though that would be assuming a decent level of precision and
already possessing basic equipment (oscilloscope, multimeter, etc…). Safety
is also a major concern, as I know while the intensity of the EM waves
involved is low, the power source may or may not be. This is all of course
assuming a basic design, where my assumption is that it will involve the
microwaves being shot at a rubidium vapor cell which is directed towards a
photodetector. This would then be connected up to the PLL and circuitry to
both provide a stable standard while also modulating the microwave
oscillator to offset any external environmental factors. I don't have a
clear vision of what would truly be the best design for both simplicity and
cost, though this is what I've found to be a common design in what I've
looked at online.
Thanks, Leo
Hi Leo,
That sounds like a fun project. Here are some extremely informative
resources:
"Introduction to the Rubidium Frequency Standard"
by Michael Parker, 358 pages
http://www.leapsecond.com/u/parker/ParkerIntroRFS-PPCP.pdf
"Rubidium Frequency Standard Primer"
by Bill Riley, 163 pages
http://www.wriley.com/Rubidium%20Frequency%20Standard%20Primer%20102211.pdf
"Selection Criteria for Rubidium Frequency Standards"
by Bill Riley, 51 pages
http://www.wriley.com/Selection%20Criteria%20for%20Rubidium%20Frequency%20Standards.pdf
Also read service manuals for commercial Rb products. Didier's site has
a nice collection. Search by product number (e.g., 5065a) or by title
(e.g., rubidium):
http://www.ko4bb.com/getsimple/index.php?id=manuals
/tvb
On 6/6/2023 12:25 PM, Leo Ahluwalia via time-nuts wrote:
Hello, my name is Leo, and I was wondering about the feasibility of
creating a simple rubidium atomic clock at home, and good places to source
parts for this sort of project. I was also wondering what instruments and
specialized knowledge would be required depending on how pre-built the
parts are, for example, the prerequisite knowledge for creating PLL(s) for
both frequency division to provide an output and also to modulate the input
of the microwave oscillator. Any good resources or PDFs would be greatly
appreciated, as I am very new to frequency analysis and phase manipulation
in general. I was also hoping to keep the cost of the project soft-line
below 500$, though that would be assuming a decent level of precision and
already possessing basic equipment (oscilloscope, multimeter, etc…). Safety
is also a major concern, as I know while the intensity of the EM waves
involved is low, the power source may or may not be. This is all of course
assuming a basic design, where my assumption is that it will involve the
microwaves being shot at a rubidium vapor cell which is directed towards a
photodetector. This would then be connected up to the PLL and circuitry to
both provide a stable standard while also modulating the microwave
oscillator to offset any external environmental factors. I don't have a
clear vision of what would truly be the best design for both simplicity and
cost, though this is what I've found to be a common design in what I've
looked at online.
Thanks, Leo
In a former life, I was on the design team of a mini rubidium standard
at Hewlett-Packard. We built some working prototypes before it was
cancelled. It was going to have the model number 10816. I was the RF
person, but I worked very closely with the other team members.
Remembering what we had to go through to make "glassware", it is
inconceivable that you could do that as a "home brew" project. And this
was the same HP facility that already made the 5065 rubidium standard.
The best you could hope to do is to start with a commercial "physics
package" as we called it, and make your own electronics for it. Reading
books about how rubidium standards work, etc is fine, but again, you
can't home brew the glassware.
Rick Karlquist
N6RK
On 2023-06-06 15:39, Tom Van Baak via time-nuts wrote:
Hi Leo,
That sounds like a fun project. Here are some extremely informative resources:
"Introduction to the Rubidium Frequency Standard"
by Michael Parker, 358 pages
http://www.leapsecond.com/u/parker/ParkerIntroRFS-PPCP.pdf
"Rubidium Frequency Standard Primer"
by Bill Riley, 163 pages
http://www.wriley.com/Rubidium%20Frequency%20Standard%20Primer%20102211.pdf
"Selection Criteria for Rubidium Frequency Standards"
by Bill Riley, 51 pages
http://www.wriley.com/Selection%20Criteria%20for%20Rubidium%20Frequency%20Standards.pdf
Also read service manuals for commercial Rb products. Didier's site has a nice collection. Search by product number (e.g., 5065a) or by title (e.g., rubidium):
http://www.ko4bb.com/getsimple/index.php?id=manuals
/tvb
On 6/6/2023 12:25 PM, Leo Ahluwalia via time-nuts wrote:
Hello, my name is Leo, and I was wondering about the feasibility of
creating a simple rubidium atomic clock at home, and good places to source
parts for this sort of project. I was also wondering what instruments and
specialized knowledge would be required depending on how pre-built the
parts are, for example, the prerequisite knowledge for creating PLL(s) for
both frequency division to provide an output and also to modulate the input
of the microwave oscillator. Any good resources or PDFs would be greatly
appreciated, as I am very new to frequency analysis and phase manipulation
in general. I was also hoping to keep the cost of the project soft-line
below 500$, though that would be assuming a decent level of precision and
already possessing basic equipment (oscilloscope, multimeter, etc...). Safety
is also a major concern, as I know while the intensity of the EM waves
involved is low, the power source may or may not be. This is all of course
assuming a basic design, where my assumption is that it will involve the
microwaves being shot at a rubidium vapor cell which is directed towards a
photodetector. This would then be connected up to the PLL and circuitry to
both provide a stable standard while also modulating the microwave
oscillator to offset any external environmental factors. I don't have a
clear vision of what would truly be the best design for both simplicity and
cost, though this is what I've found to be a common design in what I've
looked at online.Thanks, Leo
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Hi,
you find an interesting description of "DIY"ing a rubidium clock (it
was build for a PHD thesis).
Am 06.06.23 um 21:25 schrieb Leo Ahluwalia via time-nuts:
Hello, my name is Leo, and I was wondering about the feasibility of
creating a simple rubidium atomic clock at home, and good places to source
parts for this sort of project. I was also wondering what instruments and
specialized knowledge would be required depending on how pre-built the
parts are, for example, the prerequisite knowledge for creating PLL(s) for
both frequency division to provide an output and also to modulate the input
of the microwave oscillator. Any good resources or PDFs would be greatly
appreciated, as I am very new to frequency analysis and phase manipulation
in general. I was also hoping to keep the cost of the project soft-line
below 500$, though that would be assuming a decent level of precision and
already possessing basic equipment (oscilloscope, multimeter, etc…). Safety
is also a major concern, as I know while the intensity of the EM waves
involved is low, the power source may or may not be. This is all of course
assuming a basic design, where my assumption is that it will involve the
microwaves being shot at a rubidium vapor cell which is directed towards a
photodetector. This would then be connected up to the PLL and circuitry to
both provide a stable standard while also modulating the microwave
oscillator to offset any external environmental factors. I don't have a
clear vision of what would truly be the best design for both simplicity and
cost, though this is what I've found to be a common design in what I've
looked at online.
Thanks, Leo
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I can only suggest on the PLL part. Consider using an ADF5355, one of the
modern PLL chips available on ready made modules from CHina/Ebay
That is Fractional-N synth chip, using a double Fract-N architecture and
capable of minute frequency steps, and an on-chip doubler allowing output
up to 12GHz
When supplied with a 10MHz reference, with the appropriate registers set,
it can get to within 0.0005Hz of the rubidium resonance.
The attached screenshot is my own calculation utility for this chip showing
(just one set of) values to do this.
More info on driving this PLL chip at http://g4jnt.com/Synthesizers.htm
Scroll down to ADF5355
Andy
www.g4jnt.com
[image: image.png]
On Tue, 6 Jun 2023 at 22:33, Leo Ahluwalia via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
Hello, my name is Leo, and I was wondering about the feasibility of
creating a simple rubidium atomic clock at home, and good places to source
parts for this sort of project. I was also wondering what instruments and
specialized knowledge would be required depending on how pre-built the
parts are, for example, the prerequisite knowledge for creating PLL(s) for
both frequency division to provide an output and also to modulate the input
of the microwave oscillator. Any good resources or PDFs would be greatly
appreciated, as I am very new to frequency analysis and phase manipulation
in general. I was also hoping to keep the cost of the project soft-line
below 500$, though that would be assuming a decent level of precision and
already possessing basic equipment (oscilloscope, multimeter, etc…). Safety
is also a major concern, as I know while the intensity of the EM waves
involved is low, the power source may or may not be. This is all of course
assuming a basic design, where my assumption is that it will involve the
microwaves being shot at a rubidium vapor cell which is directed towards a
photodetector. This would then be connected up to the PLL and circuitry to
both provide a stable standard while also modulating the microwave
oscillator to offset any external environmental factors. I don't have a
clear vision of what would truly be the best design for both simplicity and
cost, though this is what I've found to be a common design in what I've
looked at online.
Thanks, Leo
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Leo,
This is a complex, but interesting, project. The electronics/microwave
part of the project is fairly straightforward and is best left for later
phases of the project. The interesting part of the project is the
"physics" package, which I refer to as "optical pumping". My experience
in this area is a bit dated (5-6 decades ago), when my undergraduate and
PhD work was centered on optical pumping of Rb, Na and Cs atoms as well as
H2+ and Hg+ ions. A lot has changed since then; in particular, many
refinements have been made to create practical miniaturized Rb based
systems suitable for commercial time standards; I am not current on these
changes.
Your first task would be to establish and demonstrate optical pumping of
Rb87 atoms. For this, you would need, at a miniumum:
- some pure Rb87
- a glass blowing setup (and some skill)
- A selection of inert gasses (at least including Ar)
- Light source (Rb discharge was used then with a circular polarizer;
intensity pumping via Rb89 (I believe) is often used now.
Infrared lasers look very interesting to me. - A low noise light detector (I used photomultipliers - many more modern
solid state possibilities exist now. - a uniform magnetic field (Helmholtz coils or solenoid) and magnetic
shielding. - A means of controlling cell temperature (Rb vapor pressure)
- A bit of electronics, including RF power for the lamp. Note that a
noisy lamp discharge will mask the desired signal.
You should start with the Zeeman transitions, which are much easier to
observe and don't require microwave hardware. If you can't see a Zeeman
transition, there is no hope for the hyperfine transition. Getting
collisional disorientation down to a low enough level might involve
experimentation with various buffer gas formulations and pressures and
cell wall coatings (we used a very thin teflon film).
If you get to the point where you can see the Zeeman transitions, you
will have accomplished and learned a lot. With a little more effort, you
should be able to see the hyperfine transition.
Good Luck!!!
Stephen
On Tue, 6 Jun 2023 15:25:47 -0400
Leo Ahluwalia via time-nuts time-nuts@lists.febo.com wrote:
Hello, my name is Leo, and I was wondering about the feasibility of
creating a simple rubidium atomic clock at home, and good places to
source parts for this sort of project. I was also wondering what
instruments and specialized knowledge would be required depending on
how pre-built the parts are, for example, the prerequisite knowledge
for creating PLL(s) for both frequency division to provide an output
and also to modulate the input of the microwave oscillator. Any good
resources or PDFs would be greatly appreciated, as I am very new to
frequency analysis and phase manipulation in general. I was also hoping
to keep the cost of the project soft-line below 500$, though that would
be assuming a decent level of precision and already possessing basic
equipment (oscilloscope, multimeter, etc…). Safety is also a major
concern, as I know while the intensity of the EM waves involved is low,
the power source may or may not be. This is all of course assuming a
basic design, where my assumption is that it will involve the
microwaves being shot at a rubidium vapor cell which is directed
towards a photodetector. This would then be connected up to the PLL and
circuitry to both provide a stable standard while also modulating the
microwave oscillator to offset any external environmental factors. I
don't have a clear vision of what would truly be the best design for
both simplicity and cost, though this is what I've found to be a common
design in what I've looked at online.
Thanks, Leo
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Hi,
I agree with Rick and was about to make more or less the same comment.
The glas package is the hardest thing to do, and there is also a certain
magic to mix the buffer gas just the right way to frequency compensate
the wall shift. Already there comes the aspect of knowing what wallshift
you will get, so you need reasonable reproduceability in both the glass
and pressure and mix in gases. To put that in other words, I am not THAT
crazy, yet.
Next level is the cavity you put the glas-ware into. The Q of that
resonator is not irrelevant, so you want to handle that.
There is a certain magic to the temperatures of the rubidium lamp and
that of the rubidium filter. This has consequences on how the physical
package is built. Some of this can be avoided today by using diodeds,
and that may even open up for avoiding the tuned resonator, but brings
in it's own set of issues.
Achievable engineering challenges, but maybe hard to do as a hobbyist.
The remaining temperature controls, FLL-lock of oscillator, synthesis
have become more and more achieveable over the years. That has become
hobbyist achieveable for sure.
However, just attempting to study up on a subject like this forces you
to learn alot, so even if you do not do a single soldering, you can have
improved your knowledge.
I would consider recycle an existing physical package that works and
make modern electronics for it. That should be plenty of challenges and
quite achieveable.
Cheers,
Magnus
On 2023-06-07 02:26, Richard Karlquist via time-nuts wrote:
In a former life, I was on the design team of a mini rubidium standard
at Hewlett-Packard. We built some working prototypes before it was
cancelled. It was going to have the model number 10816. I was the RF
person, but I worked very closely with the other team members.
Remembering what we had to go through to make "glassware", it is
inconceivable that you could do that as a "home brew" project. And this
was the same HP facility that already made the 5065 rubidium standard.
The best you could hope to do is to start with a commercial "physics
package" as we called it, and make your own electronics for it. Reading
books about how rubidium standards work, etc is fine, but again, you
can't home brew the glassware.
Rick Karlquist
N6RK
On 2023-06-06 15:39, Tom Van Baak via time-nuts wrote:
Hi Leo,
That sounds like a fun project. Here are some extremely informative resources:
"Introduction to the Rubidium Frequency Standard"
by Michael Parker, 358 pages
http://www.leapsecond.com/u/parker/ParkerIntroRFS-PPCP.pdf"Rubidium Frequency Standard Primer"
by Bill Riley, 163 pages
http://www.wriley.com/Rubidium%20Frequency%20Standard%20Primer%20102211.pdf"Selection Criteria for Rubidium Frequency Standards"
by Bill Riley, 51 pages
http://www.wriley.com/Selection%20Criteria%20for%20Rubidium%20Frequency%20Standards.pdfAlso read service manuals for commercial Rb products. Didier's site has a nice collection. Search by product number (e.g., 5065a) or by title (e.g., rubidium):
http://www.ko4bb.com/getsimple/index.php?id=manuals
/tvb
On 6/6/2023 12:25 PM, Leo Ahluwalia via time-nuts wrote:
Hello, my name is Leo, and I was wondering about the feasibility of
creating a simple rubidium atomic clock at home, and good places to source
parts for this sort of project. I was also wondering what instruments and
specialized knowledge would be required depending on how pre-built the
parts are, for example, the prerequisite knowledge for creating PLL(s) for
both frequency division to provide an output and also to modulate the input
of the microwave oscillator. Any good resources or PDFs would be greatly
appreciated, as I am very new to frequency analysis and phase manipulation
in general. I was also hoping to keep the cost of the project soft-line
below 500$, though that would be assuming a decent level of precision and
already possessing basic equipment (oscilloscope, multimeter, etc...). Safety
is also a major concern, as I know while the intensity of the EM waves
involved is low, the power source may or may not be. This is all of course
assuming a basic design, where my assumption is that it will involve the
microwaves being shot at a rubidium vapor cell which is directed towards a
photodetector. This would then be connected up to the PLL and circuitry to
both provide a stable standard while also modulating the microwave
oscillator to offset any external environmental factors. I don't have a
clear vision of what would truly be the best design for both simplicity and
cost, though this is what I've found to be a common design in what I've
looked at online.Thanks, Leo
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
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On 6/7/2023 5:03 AM, Stephen C. Menasian via time-nuts wrote:
- some pure Rb87
- a glass blowing setup (and some skill)
- A selection of inert gasses (at least including Ar)
- Light source (Rb discharge was used then with a circular polarizer;
At HP we had really skilled glass blowers, with specific experience in
making Rb glassware. We had to use an exotic grade of glass that was
only one step removed from fused quartz. It had a part number that I
don't remember. Very difficult to work with.
The Rb lamp (one of three pieces of glassware) is very tricky to work
with. We used a resonant coil driven at 95 MHz at several watts.
The trick is to "strike" the plasma and make the lamp light up;
you can at least see visible light when that happens. I spent a
lot of time fooling with it. We never got it to work as
well as the 5065 lamp.
BTW, one of the Rb isotopes is slightly radioactive. Might be
hard to get as a hobbyist due to regulations. The physicist I
sat next to had a tank of it illegally stored in his cubicle.
Rick
N6RK
Hi
Back when I was with EG&G, they spent a lot of effort on the “glassware” side
of things. It was a major undertaking for a facility that already made vacuum
tubes.
Was what they did overkill? In the end that was a bit unclear. Their whole “accurate
dose” gas fill was still being debated years later. That said, you still need some
way to get a very precise mix into each and every cell.
Bob
On Jun 6, 2023, at 8:26 PM, Richard Karlquist via time-nuts time-nuts@lists.febo.com wrote:
In a former life, I was on the design team of a mini rubidium standard
at Hewlett-Packard. We built some working prototypes before it was
cancelled. It was going to have the model number 10816. I was the RF
person, but I worked very closely with the other team members.
Remembering what we had to go through to make "glassware", it is
inconceivable that you could do that as a "home brew" project. And this
was the same HP facility that already made the 5065 rubidium standard.
The best you could hope to do is to start with a commercial "physics
package" as we called it, and make your own electronics for it. Reading
books about how rubidium standards work, etc is fine, but again, you
can't home brew the glassware.
Rick Karlquist
N6RK
On 2023-06-06 15:39, Tom Van Baak via time-nuts wrote:
Hi Leo,
That sounds like a fun project. Here are some extremely informative resources:
"Introduction to the Rubidium Frequency Standard"
by Michael Parker, 358 pages
http://www.leapsecond.com/u/parker/ParkerIntroRFS-PPCP.pdf
"Rubidium Frequency Standard Primer"
by Bill Riley, 163 pages
http://www.wriley.com/Rubidium%20Frequency%20Standard%20Primer%20102211.pdf
"Selection Criteria for Rubidium Frequency Standards"
by Bill Riley, 51 pages
http://www.wriley.com/Selection%20Criteria%20for%20Rubidium%20Frequency%20Standards.pdf
Also read service manuals for commercial Rb products. Didier's site has a nice collection. Search by product number (e.g., 5065a) or by title (e.g., rubidium):
http://www.ko4bb.com/getsimple/index.php?id=manuals
/tvb
On 6/6/2023 12:25 PM, Leo Ahluwalia via time-nuts wrote:
Hello, my name is Leo, and I was wondering about the feasibility of
creating a simple rubidium atomic clock at home, and good places to source
parts for this sort of project. I was also wondering what instruments and
specialized knowledge would be required depending on how pre-built the
parts are, for example, the prerequisite knowledge for creating PLL(s) for
both frequency division to provide an output and also to modulate the input
of the microwave oscillator. Any good resources or PDFs would be greatly
appreciated, as I am very new to frequency analysis and phase manipulation
in general. I was also hoping to keep the cost of the project soft-line
below 500$, though that would be assuming a decent level of precision and
already possessing basic equipment (oscilloscope, multimeter, etc...). Safety
is also a major concern, as I know while the intensity of the EM waves
involved is low, the power source may or may not be. This is all of course
assuming a basic design, where my assumption is that it will involve the
microwaves being shot at a rubidium vapor cell which is directed towards a
photodetector. This would then be connected up to the PLL and circuitry to
both provide a stable standard while also modulating the microwave
oscillator to offset any external environmental factors. I don't have a
clear vision of what would truly be the best design for both simplicity and
cost, though this is what I've found to be a common design in what I've
looked at online.
Thanks, Leo
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I have seen glass rubidium capsules on ebay a couple of years ago. None at
the moment and they were possibly in Russia. They were just a glass capsule
- no surrounding components, not even a coil, but they weren't particularly
expensive,. Certainly not HP-spares expensive.
Is such a thing useful (to provide 'the hardest thing') for Leo's project
if they reappear ?
On Wed, Jun 7, 2023 at 1:26 PM Magnus Danielson via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
Hi,
I agree with Rick and was about to make more or less the same comment.
The glas package is the hardest thing to do, and there is also a certain
magic to mix the buffer gas just the right way to frequency compensate
the wall shift. Already there comes the aspect of knowing what wallshift
you will get, so you need reasonable reproduceability in both the glass
and pressure and mix in gases. To put that in other words, I am not THAT
crazy, yet.
Next level is the cavity you put the glas-ware into. The Q of that
resonator is not irrelevant, so you want to handle that.
There is a certain magic to the temperatures of the rubidium lamp and
that of the rubidium filter. This has consequences on how the physical
package is built. Some of this can be avoided today by using diodeds,
and that may even open up for avoiding the tuned resonator, but brings
in it's own set of issues.
Achievable engineering challenges, but maybe hard to do as a hobbyist.
The remaining temperature controls, FLL-lock of oscillator, synthesis
have become more and more achieveable over the years. That has become
hobbyist achieveable for sure.
However, just attempting to study up on a subject like this forces you
to learn alot, so even if you do not do a single soldering, you can have
improved your knowledge.
I would consider recycle an existing physical package that works and
make modern electronics for it. That should be plenty of challenges and
quite achieveable.
Cheers,
Magnus
On 2023-06-07 02:26, Richard Karlquist via time-nuts wrote:
In a former life, I was on the design team of a mini rubidium standard
at Hewlett-Packard. We built some working prototypes before it was
cancelled. It was going to have the model number 10816. I was the RF
person, but I worked very closely with the other team members.
Remembering what we had to go through to make "glassware", it is
inconceivable that you could do that as a "home brew" project. And this
was the same HP facility that already made the 5065 rubidium standard.
The best you could hope to do is to start with a commercial "physics
package" as we called it, and make your own electronics for it. Reading
books about how rubidium standards work, etc is fine, but again, you
can't home brew the glassware.
Rick Karlquist
N6RK
On 2023-06-06 15:39, Tom Van Baak via time-nuts wrote:
Hi Leo,
That sounds like a fun project. Here are some extremely informative
resources:
"Introduction to the Rubidium Frequency Standard"
by Michael Parker, 358 pages
http://www.leapsecond.com/u/parker/ParkerIntroRFS-PPCP.pdf
"Rubidium Frequency Standard Primer"
by Bill Riley, 163 pages
"Selection Criteria for Rubidium Frequency Standards"
by Bill Riley, 51 pages
Also read service manuals for commercial Rb products. Didier's site has
a nice collection. Search by product number (e.g., 5065a) or by title
(e.g., rubidium):
http://www.ko4bb.com/getsimple/index.php?id=manuals
/tvb
On 6/6/2023 12:25 PM, Leo Ahluwalia via time-nuts wrote:
Hello, my name is Leo, and I was wondering about the feasibility of
creating a simple rubidium atomic clock at home, and good places to
source
parts for this sort of project. I was also wondering what instruments
and
specialized knowledge would be required depending on how pre-built the
parts are, for example, the prerequisite knowledge for creating PLL(s)
for
both frequency division to provide an output and also to modulate the
input
of the microwave oscillator. Any good resources or PDFs would be
greatly
appreciated, as I am very new to frequency analysis and phase
manipulation
in general. I was also hoping to keep the cost of the project soft-line
below 500$, though that would be assuming a decent level of precision
and
already possessing basic equipment (oscilloscope, multimeter, etc...).
Safety
is also a major concern, as I know while the intensity of the EM waves
involved is low, the power source may or may not be. This is all of
course
assuming a basic design, where my assumption is that it will involve
the
microwaves being shot at a rubidium vapor cell which is directed
towards a
photodetector. This would then be connected up to the PLL and
circuitry to
both provide a stable standard while also modulating the microwave
oscillator to offset any external environmental factors. I don't have a
clear vision of what would truly be the best design for both
simplicity and
cost, though this is what I've found to be a common design in what I've
looked at online.
Thanks, Leo
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To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
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