Empathy List Archives

O

online579917@telkomsa.net

Mon, Mar 3, 2008 1:57 PM

Dear Scott,

I believe you are confusing a wooden boat with a cold molded epoxy or
woodcore. According to your definition of wooden boats, hundred thousand
of boats are wooden boats, as I am certain that you are aware of the fact
that Balsa is also wood and that is it still the preferred choice of many
boat builders. As a matter of fact I happen to live very close to a yard
producing hundreds of catamarans per year in -balsa- wood.
We used to have an aluminium yacht and also that one was a production
yacht. On this boat we decided to go the red cedar. The problem with the
aluminium is that we still had to "build a boat inside the boat" prior
being able to live on board. With this material the boat is immediately
insulated and ready to live on board.

Peter Jacops
www.passagemaker.co.za

A production wood passagemaker? Bold to say the least! A bulbous bow on
a
48, again bold!

Great ideas, will be interesting to see how many buyers step up to a wood
boat. Can you elaborate on your choice of materials?

Scott Bulger, Alanui, N40II, Seattle Wa

> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dear Scott, I believe you are confusing a wooden boat with a cold molded epoxy or woodcore. According to your definition of wooden boats, hundred thousand of boats are wooden boats, as I am certain that you are aware of the fact that Balsa is also wood and that is it still the preferred choice of many boat builders. As a matter of fact I happen to live very close to a yard producing hundreds of catamarans per year in -balsa- wood. We used to have an aluminium yacht and also that one was a production yacht. On this boat we decided to go the red cedar. The problem with the aluminium is that we still had to "build a boat inside the boat" prior being able to live on board. With this material the boat is immediately insulated and ready to live on board. Peter Jacops www.passagemaker.co.za > A production wood passagemaker? Bold to say the least! A bulbous bow on > a > 48, again bold! > > Great ideas, will be interesting to see how many buyers step up to a wood > boat. Can you elaborate on your choice of materials? > > > Scott Bulger, Alanui, N40II, Seattle Wa > > > ------------------------------ > > > ********************************************************

RR

Ron Rogers

Mon, Mar 3, 2008 9:10 PM

For a properly insulated, single skin aluminum boat, please see Dashew's
foam-insulated boats. Seahorse and many others are producing steel boats
that are also insulated with foam. Neither has an inner skin.

A carvel-planked wooden hull encapsulated in fiberglass has strength and
provides insulation. How it compares to a similar aluminum hull with
appropriate scantlings - I do not know. I did notice, however, that the red
cedar you were using in the supplied photos was flat-sawn and had small,
tiny knots (STK.) That is not what I am accustomed to seeing in the type of
construction. Usually, such hulls are made of quarter-sawn cedar using the
strip-plank method.

The price of the boat is low, if its quality is high. As Patrick said, his
full displacement trawler gets the same or better gph numbers on a single
engine. So your vessel is fuel-efficient, but not amazingly so. The
prototype appears to have a conventional bow to which I assume a bulb will
be added. This will place your firm in a position to test the vessel with
and without a bulb. That test should be most informative for us all.
Finally, one of the photos leaves the impression that there is a single
propeller aperture. Is that just the angle from which the photo was taken?

Ron Rogers

For a properly insulated, single skin aluminum boat, please see Dashew's foam-insulated boats. Seahorse and many others are producing steel boats that are also insulated with foam. Neither has an inner skin. A carvel-planked wooden hull encapsulated in fiberglass has strength and provides insulation. How it compares to a similar aluminum hull with appropriate scantlings - I do not know. I did notice, however, that the red cedar you were using in the supplied photos was flat-sawn and had small, tiny knots (STK.) That is not what I am accustomed to seeing in the type of construction. Usually, such hulls are made of quarter-sawn cedar using the strip-plank method. The price of the boat is low, if its quality is high. As Patrick said, his full displacement trawler gets the same or better gph numbers on a single engine. So your vessel is fuel-efficient, but not amazingly so. The prototype appears to have a conventional bow to which I assume a bulb will be added. This will place your firm in a position to test the vessel with and without a bulb. That test should be most informative for us all. Finally, one of the photos leaves the impression that there is a single propeller aperture. Is that just the angle from which the photo was taken? Ron Rogers

SB

Scott Bulger

Tue, Mar 4, 2008 3:23 PM

I know what a wood core is, but I didn't realize they form the boat
from wood then add the glass? Perhaps I have that wrong as well. My
next comment would then be, coring below the waterline? Ugggggggg. I
thought most builders used wood core above the waterline, but at least
a water impervious product below, or solid fiberglass? I believe the
Camano I owned used something called COREX? It was like a nylon
honeycomb. Again, is it wise to use wood coring below the waterline?

Scott

On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 7:57 AM, online579917@telkomsa.net wrote:

Dear Scott,

I believe you are confusing a wooden boat with a cold molded epoxy or
woodcore.

I know what a wood core is, but I didn't realize they form the boat from wood then add the glass? Perhaps I have that wrong as well. My next comment would then be, coring below the waterline? Ugggggggg. I thought most builders used wood core above the waterline, but at least a water impervious product below, or solid fiberglass? I believe the Camano I owned used something called COREX? It was like a nylon honeycomb. Again, is it wise to use wood coring below the waterline? Scott On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 7:57 AM, <online579917@telkomsa.net> wrote: > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Dear Scott, > I believe you are confusing a wooden boat with a cold molded epoxy or > woodcore.

LH

L H

Tue, Mar 4, 2008 6:46 PM

Scott,

The modern way to build with wood is called wood-epoxy composite
construction. Epoxy is used to bond the wood and fiberglass together. The
epoxy is nearly impervious to water intrusion, unlike polyester resin. This
is not building a wooden boat and covering with fiberglass/epoxy, but is
usually laminating a hull with thinner wood bonded and covered with
epoxy/fiberglass. Because the wood is sealed in epoxy, the hulls are quite
durable. This style of construction is used in lightweight multihulls.
Check out information from West Epoxy Systems or System Three in Seattle.

Larry H

Scott wrote,

I know what a wood core is, but I didn't realize they form the boat
from wood then add the glass? Perhaps I have that wrong as well. My
next comment would then be, coring below the waterline? Ugggggggg. I

Scott, The modern way to build with wood is called wood-epoxy composite construction. Epoxy is used to bond the wood and fiberglass together. The epoxy is nearly impervious to water intrusion, unlike polyester resin. This is not building a wooden boat and covering with fiberglass/epoxy, but is usually laminating a hull with thinner wood bonded and covered with epoxy/fiberglass. Because the wood is sealed in epoxy, the hulls are quite durable. This style of construction is used in lightweight multihulls. Check out information from West Epoxy Systems or System Three in Seattle. Larry H Scott wrote, >I know what a wood core is, but I didn't realize they form the boat > from wood then add the glass? Perhaps I have that wrong as well. My > next comment would then be, coring below the waterline? Ugggggggg. I

MT

Mark Tilden

Tue, Mar 4, 2008 7:38 PM

Scott, Larry & Group:

There's a boat yard in Portland that builds almost entirely custom one-off
boats (sail and power) using the West system wood-epoxy composite. I sailed
one of their boats San Francisco to Hawaii in the Pacific Cup race. This
construction technique is extremely durable, and because it's based on Epoxy
resins, it's considerably less susceptible to blistering and osmosis.

In these boats, the inner and outer skins are cedar and/or mahogany and they
are cored with closed-cell foam above and below the waterline. Of course,
weight savings is crucial in the performance of a sailboat, so that more of
the weight can be placed in ballast. The cored composite structure is
pound-for-pound much stronger than solid fiberglass. Yes, you have to be
careful about sealing it properly if you drill any kind of holes below the
waterline, but the closed cell foam core saturated with epoxy on the
interface with the skins prevents water from migrating through the core and
is very resistant to deterioration. This is a more expensive way to build a
boat than a solid fiberglass skin, but they end up being very durable strong
hulls. This company has built sailboats using this technique up to 75' and a
couple of power catamarans used in the dive/tourist trade in Hawaii.

Check out www.schoonercreek.com for more info.

Capt. Mark Tilden
"Koinonia" Selene 59

-----Original Message-----
From: passagemaking-under-power-bounces@lists.samurai.com
[mailto:passagemaking-under-power-bounces@lists.samurai.com] On Behalf Of L
H
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 10:47 AM
To: Passagemaking Under Power List
Subject: Re: [PUP] $100 per barrel oil

Scott,

The modern way to build with wood is called wood-epoxy composite
construction. Epoxy is used to bond the wood and fiberglass together. The
epoxy is nearly impervious to water intrusion, unlike polyester resin. This

is not building a wooden boat and covering with fiberglass/epoxy, but is
usually laminating a hull with thinner wood bonded and covered with
epoxy/fiberglass. Because the wood is sealed in epoxy, the hulls are quite
durable. This style of construction is used in lightweight multihulls.
Check out information from West Epoxy Systems or System Three in Seattle.

Larry H

Scott wrote,

I know what a wood core is, but I didn't realize they form the boat
from wood then add the glass? Perhaps I have that wrong as well. My
next comment would then be, coring below the waterline? Ugggggggg. I

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Scott, Larry & Group: There's a boat yard in Portland that builds almost entirely custom one-off boats (sail and power) using the West system wood-epoxy composite. I sailed one of their boats San Francisco to Hawaii in the Pacific Cup race. This construction technique is extremely durable, and because it's based on Epoxy resins, it's considerably less susceptible to blistering and osmosis. In these boats, the inner and outer skins are cedar and/or mahogany and they are cored with closed-cell foam above and below the waterline. Of course, weight savings is crucial in the performance of a sailboat, so that more of the weight can be placed in ballast. The cored composite structure is pound-for-pound much stronger than solid fiberglass. Yes, you have to be careful about sealing it properly if you drill any kind of holes below the waterline, but the closed cell foam core saturated with epoxy on the interface with the skins prevents water from migrating through the core and is very resistant to deterioration. This is a more expensive way to build a boat than a solid fiberglass skin, but they end up being very durable strong hulls. This company has built sailboats using this technique up to 75' and a couple of power catamarans used in the dive/tourist trade in Hawaii. Check out www.schoonercreek.com for more info. Capt. Mark Tilden "Koinonia" Selene 59 -----Original Message----- From: passagemaking-under-power-bounces@lists.samurai.com [mailto:passagemaking-under-power-bounces@lists.samurai.com] On Behalf Of L H Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 10:47 AM To: Passagemaking Under Power List Subject: Re: [PUP] $100 per barrel oil Scott, The modern way to build with wood is called wood-epoxy composite construction. Epoxy is used to bond the wood and fiberglass together. The epoxy is nearly impervious to water intrusion, unlike polyester resin. This is not building a wooden boat and covering with fiberglass/epoxy, but is usually laminating a hull with thinner wood bonded and covered with epoxy/fiberglass. Because the wood is sealed in epoxy, the hulls are quite durable. This style of construction is used in lightweight multihulls. Check out information from West Epoxy Systems or System Three in Seattle. Larry H Scott wrote, >I know what a wood core is, but I didn't realize they form the boat > from wood then add the glass? Perhaps I have that wrong as well. My > next comment would then be, coring below the waterline? Ugggggggg. I _______________________________________________ http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power To unsubscribe send email to passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message. Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.

RR

Ron Rogers

Wed, Mar 5, 2008 1:47 AM

The Schooner Creek method is an extraordinary version of the
cold-molded/West System technique. Note that they use vacuum-bagging for all
structural work! It cannot be low cost in any way. Please see:

< http://www.schoonercreek.com/const_process/construction_process3.htm >

Covey Island Boatworks uses another, less complex version of this method,
but it too is expensive. Please see:

< http://www.coveyisland.com/index.html > and find the Wooden Boat article
explaining their method.

Both yards produce quality boats.

The Schooner Creek method is an extraordinary version of the cold-molded/West System technique. Note that they use vacuum-bagging for all structural work! It cannot be low cost in any way. Please see: < http://www.schoonercreek.com/const_process/construction_process3.htm > Covey Island Boatworks uses another, less complex version of this method, but it too is expensive. Please see: < http://www.coveyisland.com/index.html > and find the Wooden Boat article explaining their method. Both yards produce quality boats.

passagemaking@lists.trawlering.com

$100 per barrel oil