Empathy List Archives

S

shalimr9@gmail.com

Sun, Feb 19, 2012 3:31 AM

I work for a defense contractor. We used to make certain commercial test equipment, some 40 year old stuff is still being used today and lots of it has been sold to China, Korea, Taiwan and others with full manuals and schematics.

Nowadays, these same manuals and schematics (for the 40 year old stuff) have been reprinted with ITAR notices and I would go to jail if I sent someone a copy outside the USA without approval from the Contracts department. Such approval will not be granted unless we have a suitable export license or TAA for that material and documentation.

We cannot even talk to our vendors in Canada about our requirements, we can only buy catalog products. Asking them to change the color of the paint would be a violation punishable with fines and possibly jail.

It is not even funny.

So, now, what were you asking FEI for?

Didier KO4BB

Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things...

-----Original Message-----
From: John Ackermann N8UR jra@febo.com
Sender: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 10:34:40
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com
Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI

One thing to keep in mind is that FEI is very largely a defense
contractor, so their customers, marketing, and motivation are a bit
different than the typical business-to-business model.

John

On 2/17/2012 10:02 AM, Bill Riches wrote:

Good points made - no income for the company, However on the other side of
the coin - look at Agilient having available all of the old HP manuals for
download even though there is no income to them. I wonder if it was a
requirement of them to supply HP manuals when they absorbed HP.

I just purchased a new HP Pavilion laptop and was surprised to see that you
can download a service manual from HP with part numbers and it has
disassembly instructions - don't know of any other mfgs that do that. Of
course HP computer company does not have any connection with the original HP

or do they...

73,

Bill Riches, WA2DVU
Cape May, NJ

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Jim Lux
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 9:43 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI

On 2/17/12 5:27 AM, paul swed wrote:

The used market makes no difference to them. No revenue stream.

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

I work for a defense contractor. We used to make certain commercial test equipment, some 40 year old stuff is still being used today and lots of it has been sold to China, Korea, Taiwan and others with full manuals and schematics. Nowadays, these same manuals and schematics (for the 40 year old stuff) have been reprinted with ITAR notices and I would go to jail if I sent someone a copy outside the USA without approval from the Contracts department. Such approval will not be granted unless we have a suitable export license or TAA for that material and documentation. We cannot even talk to our vendors in Canada about our requirements, we can only buy catalog products. Asking them to change the color of the paint would be a violation punishable with fines and possibly jail. It is not even funny. So, now, what were you asking FEI for? Didier KO4BB Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things... -----Original Message----- From: John Ackermann N8UR <jra@febo.com> Sender: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 10:34:40 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement<time-nuts@febo.com> Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts@febo.com> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI One thing to keep in mind is that FEI is very largely a defense contractor, so their customers, marketing, and motivation are a bit different than the typical business-to-business model. John ---- On 2/17/2012 10:02 AM, Bill Riches wrote: > Good points made - no income for the company, However on the other side of > the coin - look at Agilient having available all of the old HP manuals for > download even though there is no income to them. I wonder if it was a > requirement of them to supply HP manuals when they absorbed HP. > > I just purchased a new HP Pavilion laptop and was surprised to see that you > can download a service manual from HP with part numbers and it has > disassembly instructions - don't know of any other mfgs that do that. Of > course HP computer company does not have any connection with the original HP > - or do they... > > 73, > > Bill Riches, WA2DVU > Cape May, NJ > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On > Behalf Of Jim Lux > Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 9:43 AM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI > > On 2/17/12 5:27 AM, paul swed wrote: >> The used market makes no difference to them. No revenue stream. _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.

PG

Peter Gottlieb

Sun, Feb 19, 2012 6:07 AM

Do you believe there may be a problem for those who are
reverse-engineering, and posting on the open net, items which may be
covered under these regulations?

If you do, you may want to consider contacting them off-list and letting
them know your concern.

Peter

On 2/18/2012 10:31 PM, shalimr9@gmail.com wrote:

I work for a defense contractor. We used to make certain commercial test equipment, some 40 year old stuff is still being used today and lots of it has been sold to China, Korea, Taiwan and others with full manuals and schematics.

Nowadays, these same manuals and schematics (for the 40 year old stuff) have been reprinted with ITAR notices and I would go to jail if I sent someone a copy outside the USA without approval from the Contracts department. Such approval will not be granted unless we have a suitable export license or TAA for that material and documentation.

We cannot even talk to our vendors in Canada about our requirements, we can only buy catalog products. Asking them to change the color of the paint would be a violation punishable with fines and possibly jail.

It is not even funny.

So, now, what were you asking FEI for?

Didier KO4BB

Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things...

-----Original Message-----
From: John Ackermann N8URjra@febo.com
Sender: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 10:34:40
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com
Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI

One thing to keep in mind is that FEI is very largely a defense
contractor, so their customers, marketing, and motivation are a bit
different than the typical business-to-business model.

John

On 2/17/2012 10:02 AM, Bill Riches wrote:

Good points made - no income for the company, However on the other side of
the coin - look at Agilient having available all of the old HP manuals for
download even though there is no income to them. I wonder if it was a
requirement of them to supply HP manuals when they absorbed HP.

I just purchased a new HP Pavilion laptop and was surprised to see that you
can download a service manual from HP with part numbers and it has
disassembly instructions - don't know of any other mfgs that do that. Of
course HP computer company does not have any connection with the original HP

or do they...

73,

Bill Riches, WA2DVU
Cape May, NJ

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Jim Lux
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 9:43 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI

On 2/17/12 5:27 AM, paul swed wrote:

The used market makes no difference to them. No revenue stream.

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Do you believe there may be a problem for those who are reverse-engineering, and posting on the open net, items which may be covered under these regulations? If you do, you may want to consider contacting them off-list and letting them know your concern. Peter On 2/18/2012 10:31 PM, shalimr9@gmail.com wrote: > I work for a defense contractor. We used to make certain commercial test equipment, some 40 year old stuff is still being used today and lots of it has been sold to China, Korea, Taiwan and others with full manuals and schematics. > > Nowadays, these same manuals and schematics (for the 40 year old stuff) have been reprinted with ITAR notices and I would go to jail if I sent someone a copy outside the USA without approval from the Contracts department. Such approval will not be granted unless we have a suitable export license or TAA for that material and documentation. > > We cannot even talk to our vendors in Canada about our requirements, we can only buy catalog products. Asking them to change the color of the paint would be a violation punishable with fines and possibly jail. > > It is not even funny. > > So, now, what were you asking FEI for? > > Didier KO4BB > > Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things... > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Ackermann N8UR<jra@febo.com> > Sender: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com > Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 10:34:40 > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement<time-nuts@febo.com> > Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > <time-nuts@febo.com> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI > > One thing to keep in mind is that FEI is very largely a defense > contractor, so their customers, marketing, and motivation are a bit > different than the typical business-to-business model. > > John > ---- > > On 2/17/2012 10:02 AM, Bill Riches wrote: >> Good points made - no income for the company, However on the other side of >> the coin - look at Agilient having available all of the old HP manuals for >> download even though there is no income to them. I wonder if it was a >> requirement of them to supply HP manuals when they absorbed HP. >> >> I just purchased a new HP Pavilion laptop and was surprised to see that you >> can download a service manual from HP with part numbers and it has >> disassembly instructions - don't know of any other mfgs that do that. Of >> course HP computer company does not have any connection with the original HP >> - or do they... >> >> 73, >> >> Bill Riches, WA2DVU >> Cape May, NJ >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On >> Behalf Of Jim Lux >> Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 9:43 AM >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI >> >> On 2/17/12 5:27 AM, paul swed wrote: >>> The used market makes no difference to them. No revenue stream. > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. >

AK

Attila Kinali

Mon, Feb 27, 2012 9:01 AM

On Sun, 19 Feb 2012 01:07:04 -0500
Peter Gottlieb nerd@verizon.net wrote:

Do you believe there may be a problem for those who are
reverse-engineering, and posting on the open net, items which may be
covered under these regulations?

Not unless you live in the US. Then you are bound by the laws
of your country. But then again, most of the stuff we deal with
is not of clasified nature, it's just that the companies who work
in the arms, military and defense business are paranoid. Checking
each bit of information whether it would be export restricted or not
would mean a lot more work than just to declare everything as classified.

That in the long term they hurt themselves by this is an other issue
and because it cannot be numberd in $$$ for this quaters budget, not
of the concern of those who decide such policy.

		Attila Kinali

--
Why does it take years to find the answers to
the questions one should have asked long ago?

On Sun, 19 Feb 2012 01:07:04 -0500 Peter Gottlieb <nerd@verizon.net> wrote: > Do you believe there may be a problem for those who are > reverse-engineering, and posting on the open net, items which may be > covered under these regulations? Not unless you live in the US. Then you are bound by the laws of your country. But then again, most of the stuff we deal with is not of clasified nature, it's just that the companies who work in the arms, military and defense business are paranoid. Checking each bit of information whether it would be export restricted or not would mean a lot more work than just to declare everything as classified. That in the long term they hurt themselves by this is an other issue and because it cannot be numberd in $$$ for this quaters budget, not of the concern of those who decide such policy. Attila Kinali -- Why does it take years to find the answers to the questions one should have asked long ago?

JC

Jose Camara

Sun, Mar 4, 2012 8:29 PM

To be fair, the scrapping of defective boards was a practice adopted by HP
in the 90's and by Tektronix only after the Danaher steamroller took over.

I was lucky to buy a set of defective boards from an ex-HP employee in Santa
Rosa and spend weeks really learning how they work, modifying a 8560
tracking generator into a 8590 one, but in the end got not only a fully
packed 8593E but education and hands-on training I couldn't get anywhere.

Similarly, I got a nearly-operational prototype MSO4104 and some spare
boards from pre-Danaher time from another ex-employee, and was able to just
tweak the EEPROM to get it to work. Tektronix was near zero help - you can
actually say they were below zero - one call mentioning I 'might buy' old
prototypes resulted in legal threats.

I agree with you, they'd be better off eBaying their scrap so hobbyists with
small budgets but plenty of time could repair what was not economical to
them. The amount of good will and testimonials to their quality from these
people couldn't be created by any ad campaign or tons of free t-shirts and
pens in shows...

Jose

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of David
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 8:39 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI

I have been leaning more toward Agilent and away from Tektronix for
this very reason.

On Fri, 17 Feb 2012 09:17:54 -0700, Tom Knox actast@hotmail.com
wrote:

I think that for many of us, we are both professional and hobbyist Time

Nuts and companies that encourage the hobbyist will find it pays of when we
make professional purchases. Agilent seems to be learning this lesson as
they put more and more manuals for obsolete products on line.

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

To be fair, the scrapping of defective boards was a practice adopted by HP in the 90's and by Tektronix only after the Danaher steamroller took over. I was lucky to buy a set of defective boards from an ex-HP employee in Santa Rosa and spend weeks really learning how they work, modifying a 8560 tracking generator into a 8590 one, but in the end got not only a fully packed 8593E but education and hands-on training I couldn't get anywhere. Similarly, I got a nearly-operational prototype MSO4104 and some spare boards from pre-Danaher time from another ex-employee, and was able to just tweak the EEPROM to get it to work. Tektronix was near zero help - you can actually say they were below zero - one call mentioning I 'might buy' old prototypes resulted in legal threats. I agree with you, they'd be better off eBaying their scrap so hobbyists with small budgets but plenty of time could repair what was not economical to them. The amount of good will and testimonials to their quality from these people couldn't be created by any ad campaign or tons of free t-shirts and pens in shows... Jose -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of David Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 8:39 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: FE-5680A Contact FEI I have been leaning more toward Agilent and away from Tektronix for this very reason. On Fri, 17 Feb 2012 09:17:54 -0700, Tom Knox <actast@hotmail.com> wrote: >I think that for many of us, we are both professional and hobbyist Time Nuts and companies that encourage the hobbyist will find it pays of when we make professional purchases. Agilent seems to be learning this lesson as they put more and more manuals for obsolete products on line. _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.

time-nuts@lists.febo.com

FE-5680A Schematics (v0.1)

John

John