Hi, 
Guest
Pic
Sign In

passagemaking@lists.trawlering.com

Passagemaking Under Power List

View all threads

Let's design the perfect passagemaker - Lets start ....

HV
hannu venermo
Thu, Oct 30, 2008 12:42 PM

I4m in.

For a start,I will suggest something along the lines of Dashews FPB, but
much, much cheaper.

2/3 of the cost is unnecessary - because he builds crafts to that
top-end market, where he is, which he enjoys, and which makes sense to him.
Kudos to Steve Dashew - and his business sense is absolutely correct.

OTOH-
The same/similar passagemaker can be done for 500k (maybe 750$,
depending on how much gold-plateing you want done).

For my money, the best solution is similar to the FPD- but with some
small differences;

  • steel hull
  • more workmanlike, less "yachty" systems
  • very well noise isolated
  • heavy (on purpose)
  • smaller engines

Steve boats use a lot of "mercedes benz" type technology that is
unnecessary and vastly increases cost.
-exotic materials in props, shafts and propellers etc.
-custom cooling and heating
That are only needed for his market/lifestyle - not at all needed for a
passagemaker.

All discussion on this will be greatly received.

Please note- all stuff of substance re: design issues require in-depth
comments. Snappy one-liners are not going to advance the talks. Of
necessity, many posts will be long/involved. Suggestions are gratefully
received.

I4m in. For a start,I will suggest something along the lines of Dashews FPB, but much, much cheaper. 2/3 of the cost is unnecessary - because he builds crafts to that top-end market, where he is, which he enjoys, and which makes sense to him. Kudos to Steve Dashew - and his business sense is absolutely correct. OTOH- The same/similar passagemaker can be done for 500k (maybe 750$, depending on how much gold-plateing you want done). For my money, the best solution is similar to the FPD- but with some small differences; - steel hull - more workmanlike, less "yachty" systems - very well noise isolated - heavy (on purpose) - smaller engines Steve boats use a lot of "mercedes benz" type technology that is unnecessary and vastly increases cost. -exotic materials in props, shafts and propellers etc. -custom cooling and heating That are only needed for his market/lifestyle - not at all needed for a passagemaker. All discussion on this will be greatly received. Please note- all stuff of substance re: design issues require in-depth comments. Snappy one-liners are not going to advance the talks. Of necessity, many posts will be long/involved. Suggestions are gratefully received.
KW
Ken Williams
Thu, Oct 30, 2008 3:15 PM

Hannu Venermo raised the question of doing a steel hulled boat.

The hull seems a good starting point for a discussion...

To my knowledge there are only four options for the hull: wood, fiberglass,
aluminum and steel.

I know nothing about the pros and cons of a wood-hulled boat, so I can't
comment on them. My perception is that wood is great, but not practical, for
cost and maintenance reasons.

As to fiberglass:

Pros

  • Inexpensive to manufacture in a production environment
  • Produces a good looking boat
  • Can be painted
  • Easier to insulate than steel or aluminum

Cons

  • Less collision proof than steel or aluminum
  • Longevity uncertain
  • Expensive in small production runs (one-offs)
  • Tough to do major repairs (if significant damage)

As to Steel or Aluminum:

Pros

  • Tougher than fiberglass
  • Integral tanks are possible (double-hull with tanks in middle)
    • Usually provides for huge fuel capacity
  • Easy to fix anywhere in the world (just weld on a patch)
  • Possible to manufacture in limited quantities

Cons

  • Electrolysis. Any two differing metals, that touch, are going to cause
    problems.
  • Rust
  • Sweating
  • Can be a permanent maintenance nightmare. Need to inspect constantly
  • Can't be painted
  • Resale of metal boats is not good. Too many buyers fear them (right or
    wrongly - but certainly)
  • More expensive than fiberglass in mass production(?)
  • Top heavy, if all steel is used .. and, a tricky problem if a
    steel/aluminum combination is used

Ken Williams
www.kensblog.com
Sans Souci, Nordhavn 68

Hannu Venermo raised the question of doing a steel hulled boat. The hull seems a good starting point for a discussion... To my knowledge there are only four options for the hull: wood, fiberglass, aluminum and steel. I know nothing about the pros and cons of a wood-hulled boat, so I can't comment on them. My perception is that wood is great, but not practical, for cost and maintenance reasons. As to fiberglass: Pros ---- - Inexpensive to manufacture in a production environment - Produces a good looking boat - Can be painted - Easier to insulate than steel or aluminum Cons ---- - Less collision proof than steel or aluminum - Longevity uncertain - Expensive in small production runs (one-offs) - Tough to do major repairs (if significant damage) As to Steel or Aluminum: Pros ---- - Tougher than fiberglass - Integral tanks are possible (double-hull with tanks in middle) + Usually provides for huge fuel capacity - Easy to fix anywhere in the world (just weld on a patch) - Possible to manufacture in limited quantities Cons ---- - Electrolysis. Any two differing metals, that touch, are going to cause problems. - Rust - Sweating - Can be a permanent maintenance nightmare. Need to inspect constantly - Can't be painted - Resale of metal boats is not good. Too many buyers fear them (right or wrongly - but certainly) - More expensive than fiberglass in mass production(?) - Top heavy, if all steel is used .. and, a tricky problem if a steel/aluminum combination is used Ken Williams www.kensblog.com Sans Souci, Nordhavn 68
JM
John Marshall
Thu, Oct 30, 2008 3:29 PM

Don't forget ferro-cement. There are 11,000 Hartley ferro-cement (FC)
boats out there, plus innumerable other pleasure craft and commercial
boats. Its easy to work for small production runs, it makes for a hull
that lasts nearly forever and is easy to repair. It also puts weight
down where you want it.

Most of the bad press that FC boats get is due to the amateur
construction of so many of them. Backyard boats.

But professionally designed and built FC hulls will outlive their
buyers, and require very little maintenance.

John Marshall

On Oct 30, 2008, at 8:15 AM, Ken Williams wrote:

Hannu Venermo raised the question of doing a steel hulled boat.

The hull seems a good starting point for a discussion...

To my knowledge there are only four options for the hull: wood,
fiberglass,
aluminum and steel.

I know nothing about the pros and cons of a wood-hulled boat, so I
can't
comment on them. My perception is that wood is great, but not
practical, for
cost and maintenance reasons.

As to fiberglass:

Pros

  • Inexpensive to manufacture in a production environment
  • Produces a good looking boat
  • Can be painted
  • Easier to insulate than steel or aluminum

Cons

  • Less collision proof than steel or aluminum
  • Longevity uncertain
  • Expensive in small production runs (one-offs)
  • Tough to do major repairs (if significant damage)

As to Steel or Aluminum:

Pros

  • Tougher than fiberglass
  • Integral tanks are possible (double-hull with tanks in middle)
    • Usually provides for huge fuel capacity
  • Easy to fix anywhere in the world (just weld on a patch)
  • Possible to manufacture in limited quantities

Cons

  • Electrolysis. Any two differing metals, that touch, are going to
    cause
    problems.
  • Rust
  • Sweating
  • Can be a permanent maintenance nightmare. Need to inspect constantly
  • Can't be painted
  • Resale of metal boats is not good. Too many buyers fear them
    (right or
    wrongly - but certainly)
  • More expensive than fiberglass in mass production(?)
  • Top heavy, if all steel is used .. and, a tricky problem if a
    steel/aluminum combination is used

Ken Williams
www.kensblog.com
Sans Souci, Nordhavn 68

http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power

To unsubscribe send email to
passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word
UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message.

Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World
Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.

Don't forget ferro-cement. There are 11,000 Hartley ferro-cement (FC) boats out there, plus innumerable other pleasure craft and commercial boats. Its easy to work for small production runs, it makes for a hull that lasts nearly forever and is easy to repair. It also puts weight down where you want it. Most of the bad press that FC boats get is due to the amateur construction of so many of them. Backyard boats. But professionally designed and built FC hulls will outlive their buyers, and require very little maintenance. John Marshall On Oct 30, 2008, at 8:15 AM, Ken Williams wrote: > Hannu Venermo raised the question of doing a steel hulled boat. > > The hull seems a good starting point for a discussion... > > To my knowledge there are only four options for the hull: wood, > fiberglass, > aluminum and steel. > > I know nothing about the pros and cons of a wood-hulled boat, so I > can't > comment on them. My perception is that wood is great, but not > practical, for > cost and maintenance reasons. > > As to fiberglass: > > Pros > ---- > > - Inexpensive to manufacture in a production environment > - Produces a good looking boat > - Can be painted > - Easier to insulate than steel or aluminum > > Cons > ---- > > - Less collision proof than steel or aluminum > - Longevity uncertain > - Expensive in small production runs (one-offs) > - Tough to do major repairs (if significant damage) > > As to Steel or Aluminum: > > Pros > ---- > > - Tougher than fiberglass > - Integral tanks are possible (double-hull with tanks in middle) > + Usually provides for huge fuel capacity > - Easy to fix anywhere in the world (just weld on a patch) > - Possible to manufacture in limited quantities > > Cons > ---- > > - Electrolysis. Any two differing metals, that touch, are going to > cause > problems. > - Rust > - Sweating > - Can be a permanent maintenance nightmare. Need to inspect constantly > - Can't be painted > - Resale of metal boats is not good. Too many buyers fear them > (right or > wrongly - but certainly) > - More expensive than fiberglass in mass production(?) > - Top heavy, if all steel is used .. and, a tricky problem if a > steel/aluminum combination is used > > Ken Williams > www.kensblog.com > Sans Souci, Nordhavn 68 > _______________________________________________ > http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power > > To unsubscribe send email to > passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word > UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message. > > Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World > Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.
PG
Paul Goyette
Thu, Oct 30, 2008 3:31 PM

On Thu, 30 Oct 2008, Ken Williams wrote:

To my knowledge there are only four options for the hull: wood, fiberglass,
aluminum and steel.

Ferro-concrete?

Metal pro's/con's:

  • Electrolysis. Any two differing metals, that touch, are going to cause
    problems.

It's not that the two metals touch, but rather that they are immersed in
a common electrolytic solution (ie, the same ocean-ful of salt water)
that causes the problems.

  • Can't be painted

Can be painted, at least aluminium can!  but you need to properly prime
it first with an "etcher" that makes the surface rough enough for the
paint to stick.

Paul Goyette
formerly of Gentle Wind (61' Cheoy Lee LRC - fibreglass hull)
formerly of Southern Cross II (107' Llloydship - aluminum hull)

On Thu, 30 Oct 2008, Ken Williams wrote: > To my knowledge there are only four options for the hull: wood, fiberglass, > aluminum and steel. Ferro-concrete? Metal pro's/con's: > - Electrolysis. Any two differing metals, that touch, are going to cause > problems. It's not that the two metals touch, but rather that they are immersed in a common electrolytic solution (ie, the same ocean-ful of salt water) that causes the problems. > - Can't be painted Can be painted, at least aluminium can! but you need to properly prime it first with an "etcher" that makes the surface rough enough for the paint to stick. Paul Goyette formerly of Gentle Wind (61' Cheoy Lee LRC - fibreglass hull) formerly of Southern Cross II (107' Llloydship - aluminum hull)
P
pmouligne@aol.com
Thu, Oct 30, 2008 4:02 PM

Steel or aluminum "tougher than fiberglass"........Please....

Composite hulls can be made as strong, as stiff, as impact resistant as any other materials and still be lighter than equivalent design in steel, aluminum or wood...It is strictly a matter of proper engineering and design.
?At equal weight per sqft of hull or deck (of course, taking into account the weight of frames needed) a composite laminate, which might include a core material, will outperform any physical?`properties of other building materials.
I am sorry but?other opinions?are not based on engineering or proper knowledge but just on a "old wives tale" ...
But it is OK, of course,?to "like" other materials than composites...And all materials can make excellent boats...

?As far as outlasting wood, steel or aluminum it is also a matter of engineering and maintenance. But composite will require much less maintenance than competitive materials to last as long...

Patrick Mouligne N4601

-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Williams kenw@talkspot.com
To: 'Passagemaking Under Power List' passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com
Sent: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 4:15 pm
Subject: Re: [PUP] Let's design the perfect passagemaker - Lets start ....

Hannu Venermo raised the question of doing a steel hulled boat.

The hull seems a good starting point for a discussion...

To my knowledge there are only four options for the hull: wood, fiberglass,
aluminum and steel.

I know nothing about the pros and cons of a wood-hulled boat, so I can't
comment on them. My perception is that wood is great, but not practical, for
cost and maintenance reasons.

As to fiberglass:

Pros

  • Inexpensive to manufacture in a production environment
  • Produces a good looking boat
  • Can be painted
  • Easier to insulate than steel or aluminum

Cons

  • Less collision proof than steel or aluminum
  • Longevity uncertain
  • Expensive in small production runs (one-offs)
  • Tough to do major repairs (if significant damage)

As to Steel or Aluminum:

Pros

  • Tougher than fiberglass
  • Integral tanks are possible (double-hull with tanks in middle)
    • Usually provides for huge fuel capacity
  • Easy to fix anywhere in the world (just weld on a patch)
  • Possible to manufacture in limited quantities

Cons

  • Electrolysis. Any two differing metals, that touch, are going to cause
    problems.
  • Rust
  • Sweating
  • Can be a permanent maintenance nightmare. Need to inspect constantly
  • Can't be painted
  • Resale of metal boats is not good. Too many buyers fear them (right or
    wrongly - but certainly)
  • More expensive than fiberglass in mass production(?)
  • Top heavy, if all steel is used .. and, a tricky problem if a
    steel/aluminum combination is used

Ken Williams
www.kensblog.com
Sans Souci, Nordhavn 68

http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power

To unsubscribe send email to
passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word
UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message.

Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World Productions,
formerly known as Trawler World Productions.

Steel or aluminum "tougher than fiberglass"........Please.... Composite hulls can be made as strong, as stiff, as impact resistant as any other materials and still be lighter than equivalent design in steel, aluminum or wood...It is strictly a matter of proper engineering and design. ?At equal weight per sqft of hull or deck (of course, taking into account the weight of frames needed) a composite laminate, which might include a core material, will outperform any physical?`properties of other building materials. I am sorry but?other opinions?are not based on engineering or proper knowledge but just on a "old wives tale" ... But it is OK, of course,?to "like" other materials than composites...And all materials can make excellent boats... ?As far as outlasting wood, steel or aluminum it is also a matter of engineering and maintenance. But composite will require much less maintenance than competitive materials to last as long... Patrick Mouligne N4601 -----Original Message----- From: Ken Williams <kenw@talkspot.com> To: 'Passagemaking Under Power List' <passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com> Sent: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 4:15 pm Subject: Re: [PUP] Let's design the perfect passagemaker - Lets start .... Hannu Venermo raised the question of doing a steel hulled boat. The hull seems a good starting point for a discussion... To my knowledge there are only four options for the hull: wood, fiberglass, aluminum and steel. I know nothing about the pros and cons of a wood-hulled boat, so I can't comment on them. My perception is that wood is great, but not practical, for cost and maintenance reasons. As to fiberglass: Pros ---- - Inexpensive to manufacture in a production environment - Produces a good looking boat - Can be painted - Easier to insulate than steel or aluminum Cons ---- - Less collision proof than steel or aluminum - Longevity uncertain - Expensive in small production runs (one-offs) - Tough to do major repairs (if significant damage) As to Steel or Aluminum: Pros ---- - Tougher than fiberglass - Integral tanks are possible (double-hull with tanks in middle) + Usually provides for huge fuel capacity - Easy to fix anywhere in the world (just weld on a patch) - Possible to manufacture in limited quantities Cons ---- - Electrolysis. Any two differing metals, that touch, are going to cause problems. - Rust - Sweating - Can be a permanent maintenance nightmare. Need to inspect constantly - Can't be painted - Resale of metal boats is not good. Too many buyers fear them (right or wrongly - but certainly) - More expensive than fiberglass in mass production(?) - Top heavy, if all steel is used .. and, a tricky problem if a steel/aluminum combination is used Ken Williams www.kensblog.com Sans Souci, Nordhavn 68 _______________________________________________ http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power To unsubscribe send email to passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message. Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.
DC
Douglas Cochrane
Thu, Oct 30, 2008 8:38 PM

Dear Ones,

As a relative newbie to the power cruising world, I'd like to thank all of
you for sharing your thoughts, opinions, and experiences with the rest of
us.

Ken Williams must have met us at Trawlerfest or somewhere when he wrote:

"I've never sold boats, and have no idea what the average customer might
look like, but will hazard a guess:

  • Age 60
  • Husband and Wife
  • Just retired. Dreamed of living on a boat
  • Lots of boating experience, but not really. (day cruises on smaller
    planning hulled boats)
  • Likes to tinker. Willing to do many small repairs themselves
  • Needs to sell home, or downsize to buy their trawler. It's a material part
    of their life. Not just an idle purchase.
  • Roughly $600,000 to spend on a boat
  • Annual budget for living, maintenance, everything boat related, under
    $50,000"

Ken certainly nailed it for us.

When we went over to the Dark Side, our first big power boat was a 50' wood
Ed Monk Sr. design circa 1965. We bought the "Ursa Major" in San Diego and
brought her up the coast to the Puget Sound and Gulf Islands. She is
currently back in our home port of Newport, Oregon awaiting her new owners
to come along.

Last Spring at the Anacortes Trawlerfest we found what we think is the ideal
cruising boat for the demographic Ken described: a 46' Nordhavn. We bought
the "Four Seasons", hull #70, from Russ and Donna Sherwin. The Sherwins had
the Four Seasons built and lived aboard for eight years whilst cruising from
Mexico to Alaska several times. So far we haven't been far with her - just
the inland waters of British Columbia. Next Spring we plan to head north
inside Vancouver Island and in 2010 we'll probably go to Alaska. Then maybe
we'll join some of you big guys on a passage.

In the meanwhile I'll be sitting back enjoying your founts of wisdom. I
don't imagine I'll be able to contribute much as we are newbies. My only
opinion worth sharing at this point is that I was in the software business
for 25+ years and trust computers about as far as I can throw them. Sure, I
keep a couple of PC's running at all times whilst underway for redundant
chart plotting. But I'll always keep my paper charts handy. So, Scott
Bulger, if you want to sell your drawers full of paper charts, I'm
interested.

Best wishes to all of you. Fair winds and clean diesel!

Douglas & Gerry Cochrane
M/V Four Seasons, N46-70 - currently lying in the Inner Harbour of Victoria,
B.C.
P.O. Box 752
Yachats, OR  97498
541/913-0632
Douglas_Cochrane@msn.com

Dear Ones, As a relative newbie to the power cruising world, I'd like to thank all of you for sharing your thoughts, opinions, and experiences with the rest of us. Ken Williams must have met us at Trawlerfest or somewhere when he wrote: "I've never sold boats, and have no idea what the average customer might look like, but will hazard a guess: - Age 60 - Husband and Wife - Just retired. Dreamed of living on a boat - Lots of boating experience, but not really. (day cruises on smaller planning hulled boats) - Likes to tinker. Willing to do many small repairs themselves - Needs to sell home, or downsize to buy their trawler. It's a material part of their life. Not just an idle purchase. - Roughly $600,000 to spend on a boat - Annual budget for living, maintenance, everything boat related, under $50,000" Ken certainly nailed it for us. When we went over to the Dark Side, our first big power boat was a 50' wood Ed Monk Sr. design circa 1965. We bought the "Ursa Major" in San Diego and brought her up the coast to the Puget Sound and Gulf Islands. She is currently back in our home port of Newport, Oregon awaiting her new owners to come along. Last Spring at the Anacortes Trawlerfest we found what we think is the ideal cruising boat for the demographic Ken described: a 46' Nordhavn. We bought the "Four Seasons", hull #70, from Russ and Donna Sherwin. The Sherwins had the Four Seasons built and lived aboard for eight years whilst cruising from Mexico to Alaska several times. So far we haven't been far with her - just the inland waters of British Columbia. Next Spring we plan to head north inside Vancouver Island and in 2010 we'll probably go to Alaska. Then maybe we'll join some of you big guys on a passage. In the meanwhile I'll be sitting back enjoying your founts of wisdom. I don't imagine I'll be able to contribute much as we are newbies. My only opinion worth sharing at this point is that I was in the software business for 25+ years and trust computers about as far as I can throw them. Sure, I keep a couple of PC's running at all times whilst underway for redundant chart plotting. But I'll always keep my paper charts handy. So, Scott Bulger, if you want to sell your drawers full of paper charts, I'm interested. Best wishes to all of you. Fair winds and clean diesel! Douglas & Gerry Cochrane M/V Four Seasons, N46-70 - currently lying in the Inner Harbour of Victoria, B.C. P.O. Box 752 Yachats, OR 97498 541/913-0632 Douglas_Cochrane@msn.com
JM
John Marshall
Thu, Oct 30, 2008 9:04 PM

Doug,
I was in Victoria a few days ago and saw Four Seasons. She was
looking good. My wife and I did most of BC this year, and are planning
on going to Alaska in the spring... we've got an N55 that's based in
Sequim, WA (about 25 miles from Victoria). I think we came across you
once or twice this summer.

We're also fairly new to cruising in the PNW... although with a

couple of seasons and about ten months on the waters of PNW in our
current boat, we've gotten around the place bit. About 4000 nautical
miles of PNW cruising to be exact, although in a comfy trawler, that's
not all that much. Also, its just a bit over one tank of fuel (we go
slow).

This September and October have been better than June and July, and

nearly as good as August, with the bonus of empty anchorages. You can
get into the usually crowded ones and swing this time of year. Unless
you like crowds, this is the lovely time of year. No need to squeeze
into a cove with ten other boats and stern-tie.

So don't leave the boat in Victoria all winter. Fall/Winter cruising

is outstanding. Long as you've got some heat in the boat, some slack
in your plans to accommodate weather, a decent radar and very good
ground tackle.

With all that, its cozy and comfy all winter here. Most places,

weather's better than Oregon.

Hope to see you on the water.

John Marshall
Serendipity - N55
Sequim Bay, WA

On Oct 30, 2008, at 1:38 PM, Douglas Cochrane wrote:

Dear Ones,

As a relative newbie to the power cruising world, I'd like to thank
all of
you for sharing your thoughts, opinions, and experiences with the
rest of
us.

Ken Williams must have met us at Trawlerfest or somewhere when he
wrote:

"I've never sold boats, and have no idea what the average customer
might
look like, but will hazard a guess:

  • Age 60
  • Husband and Wife
  • Just retired. Dreamed of living on a boat
  • Lots of boating experience, but not really. (day cruises on smaller
    planning hulled boats)
  • Likes to tinker. Willing to do many small repairs themselves
  • Needs to sell home, or downsize to buy their trawler. It's a
    material part
    of their life. Not just an idle purchase.
  • Roughly $600,000 to spend on a boat
  • Annual budget for living, maintenance, everything boat related,
    under
    $50,000"

Ken certainly nailed it for us.

When we went over to the Dark Side, our first big power boat was a
50' wood
Ed Monk Sr. design circa 1965. We bought the "Ursa Major" in San
Diego and
brought her up the coast to the Puget Sound and Gulf Islands. She is
currently back in our home port of Newport, Oregon awaiting her new
owners
to come along.

Last Spring at the Anacortes Trawlerfest we found what we think is
the ideal
cruising boat for the demographic Ken described: a 46' Nordhavn. We
bought
the "Four Seasons", hull #70, from Russ and Donna Sherwin. The
Sherwins had
the Four Seasons built and lived aboard for eight years whilst
cruising from
Mexico to Alaska several times. So far we haven't been far with her

  • just
    the inland waters of British Columbia. Next Spring we plan to head
    north
    inside Vancouver Island and in 2010 we'll probably go to Alaska.
    Then maybe
    we'll join some of you big guys on a passage.

In the meanwhile I'll be sitting back enjoying your founts of
wisdom. I
don't imagine I'll be able to contribute much as we are newbies. My
only
opinion worth sharing at this point is that I was in the software
business
for 25+ years and trust computers about as far as I can throw them.
Sure, I
keep a couple of PC's running at all times whilst underway for
redundant
chart plotting. But I'll always keep my paper charts handy. So, Scott
Bulger, if you want to sell your drawers full of paper charts, I'm
interested.

Best wishes to all of you. Fair winds and clean diesel!

Douglas & Gerry Cochrane
M/V Four Seasons, N46-70 - currently lying in the Inner Harbour of
Victoria,
B.C.
P.O. Box 752
Yachats, OR  97498
541/913-0632
Douglas_Cochrane@msn.com

http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power

To unsubscribe send email to
passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word
UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message.

Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World
Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.

Doug, I was in Victoria a few days ago and saw Four Seasons. She was looking good. My wife and I did most of BC this year, and are planning on going to Alaska in the spring... we've got an N55 that's based in Sequim, WA (about 25 miles from Victoria). I think we came across you once or twice this summer. We're also fairly new to cruising in the PNW... although with a couple of seasons and about ten months on the waters of PNW in our current boat, we've gotten around the place bit. About 4000 nautical miles of PNW cruising to be exact, although in a comfy trawler, that's not all that much. Also, its just a bit over one tank of fuel (we go slow). This September and October have been better than June and July, and nearly as good as August, with the bonus of empty anchorages. You can get into the usually crowded ones and swing this time of year. Unless you like crowds, this is the lovely time of year. No need to squeeze into a cove with ten other boats and stern-tie. So don't leave the boat in Victoria all winter. Fall/Winter cruising is outstanding. Long as you've got some heat in the boat, some slack in your plans to accommodate weather, a decent radar and very good ground tackle. With all that, its cozy and comfy all winter here. Most places, weather's better than Oregon. Hope to see you on the water. John Marshall Serendipity - N55 Sequim Bay, WA On Oct 30, 2008, at 1:38 PM, Douglas Cochrane wrote: > Dear Ones, > > As a relative newbie to the power cruising world, I'd like to thank > all of > you for sharing your thoughts, opinions, and experiences with the > rest of > us. > > Ken Williams must have met us at Trawlerfest or somewhere when he > wrote: > > "I've never sold boats, and have no idea what the average customer > might > look like, but will hazard a guess: > > - Age 60 > - Husband and Wife > - Just retired. Dreamed of living on a boat > - Lots of boating experience, but not really. (day cruises on smaller > planning hulled boats) > - Likes to tinker. Willing to do many small repairs themselves > - Needs to sell home, or downsize to buy their trawler. It's a > material part > of their life. Not just an idle purchase. > - Roughly $600,000 to spend on a boat > - Annual budget for living, maintenance, everything boat related, > under > $50,000" > > Ken certainly nailed it for us. > > When we went over to the Dark Side, our first big power boat was a > 50' wood > Ed Monk Sr. design circa 1965. We bought the "Ursa Major" in San > Diego and > brought her up the coast to the Puget Sound and Gulf Islands. She is > currently back in our home port of Newport, Oregon awaiting her new > owners > to come along. > > Last Spring at the Anacortes Trawlerfest we found what we think is > the ideal > cruising boat for the demographic Ken described: a 46' Nordhavn. We > bought > the "Four Seasons", hull #70, from Russ and Donna Sherwin. The > Sherwins had > the Four Seasons built and lived aboard for eight years whilst > cruising from > Mexico to Alaska several times. So far we haven't been far with her > - just > the inland waters of British Columbia. Next Spring we plan to head > north > inside Vancouver Island and in 2010 we'll probably go to Alaska. > Then maybe > we'll join some of you big guys on a passage. > > In the meanwhile I'll be sitting back enjoying your founts of > wisdom. I > don't imagine I'll be able to contribute much as we are newbies. My > only > opinion worth sharing at this point is that I was in the software > business > for 25+ years and trust computers about as far as I can throw them. > Sure, I > keep a couple of PC's running at all times whilst underway for > redundant > chart plotting. But I'll always keep my paper charts handy. So, Scott > Bulger, if you want to sell your drawers full of paper charts, I'm > interested. > > Best wishes to all of you. Fair winds and clean diesel! > > Douglas & Gerry Cochrane > M/V Four Seasons, N46-70 - currently lying in the Inner Harbour of > Victoria, > B.C. > P.O. Box 752 > Yachats, OR 97498 > 541/913-0632 > Douglas_Cochrane@msn.com > _______________________________________________ > http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power > > To unsubscribe send email to > passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word > UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message. > > Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World > Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.
RZ
Rob Zanussi
Fri, Oct 31, 2008 2:29 AM

So can steel. Look at your average automobile.

And you can isolate steel from aluminum. That's what I've done on my boat.
Steel hull and aluminum superstructure.

Rob Z

  • Can't be painted

Can be painted, at least aluminium can!  but you need to properly prime
it first with an "etcher" that makes the surface rough enough for the
paint to stick.

Do you realize that in about 40 years we will have thousands of old ladies
running around with tattoos and pierced navels?

So can steel. Look at your average automobile. And you can isolate steel from aluminum. That's what I've done on my boat. Steel hull and aluminum superstructure. Rob Z > >> - Can't be painted > >Can be painted, at least aluminium can! but you need to properly prime >it first with an "etcher" that makes the surface rough enough for the >paint to stick. > > Do you realize that in about 40 years we will have thousands of old ladies running around with tattoos and pierced navels?
A
Alan
Fri, Oct 31, 2008 5:35 PM

Aluminum does not rust and does not need to be painted (see Dashew).  It is
a little harder to "fix" anywhere in the world, since the welding skill is
different than steel.  It is not top heavy.  The boat I am building has a
positive righting moment (think that is what it is called).  If knocked over
by "a big one" it will right itself.

Alan Wagner
Tampa

o;? o;? o;?

As to Steel or Aluminum:

Pros

  • Tougher than fiberglass
  • Integral tanks are possible (double-hull with tanks in middle)
    • Usually provides for huge fuel capacity
  • Easy to fix anywhere in the world (just weld on a patch)
  • Possible to manufacture in limited quantities

Cons

  • Electrolysis. Any two differing metals, that touch, are going to cause
    problems.
  • Rust
  • Sweating
  • Can be a permanent maintenance nightmare. Need to inspect constantly
  • Can't be painted
  • Resale of metal boats is not good. Too many buyers fear them (right or
    wrongly - but certainly)
  • More expensive than fiberglass in mass production(?)
  • Top heavy, if all steel is used .. and, a tricky problem if a
    steel/aluminum combination is used

Ken Williams
www.kensblog.com
Sans Souci, Nordhavn 68

Aluminum does not rust and does not need to be painted (see Dashew). It is a little harder to "fix" anywhere in the world, since the welding skill is different than steel. It is not top heavy. The boat I am building has a positive righting moment (think that is what it is called). If knocked over by "a big one" it will right itself. Alan Wagner Tampa ________________________________ o;? o;? o;? As to Steel or Aluminum: Pros ---- - Tougher than fiberglass - Integral tanks are possible (double-hull with tanks in middle) + Usually provides for huge fuel capacity - Easy to fix anywhere in the world (just weld on a patch) - Possible to manufacture in limited quantities Cons ---- - Electrolysis. Any two differing metals, that touch, are going to cause problems. - Rust - Sweating - Can be a permanent maintenance nightmare. Need to inspect constantly - Can't be painted - Resale of metal boats is not good. Too many buyers fear them (right or wrongly - but certainly) - More expensive than fiberglass in mass production(?) - Top heavy, if all steel is used .. and, a tricky problem if a steel/aluminum combination is used Ken Williams www.kensblog.com Sans Souci, Nordhavn 68
V
VANNHANDEL
Fri, Oct 31, 2008 6:36 PM

Other hull building materials:

Ferro-cement
Monel
Copper nickel
Titanium
Epoxy
Plywood

Thorstein Midttun
NORNA

-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Williams
Sent: 30. oktober 2008 16:16
To: 'Passagemaking Under Power List'
Subject: Re: [PUP] Let's design the perfect passagemaker - Lets start ....

Hannu Venermo raised the question of doing a steel hulled boat.

The hull seems a good starting point for a discussion...

To my knowledge there are only four options for the hull: wood, fiberglass,
aluminum and steel.

Other hull building materials: Ferro-cement Monel Copper nickel Titanium Epoxy Plywood Thorstein Midttun NORNA -----Original Message----- From: Ken Williams Sent: 30. oktober 2008 16:16 To: 'Passagemaking Under Power List' Subject: Re: [PUP] Let's design the perfect passagemaker - Lets start .... Hannu Venermo raised the question of doing a steel hulled boat. The hull seems a good starting point for a discussion... To my knowledge there are only four options for the hull: wood, fiberglass, aluminum and steel.
Next page
Empathy v1.0   2025 ©emwd.com
Documentation