Empathy List Archives

JF

J. Forster

Mon, Mar 5, 2012 6:04 PM

If the old antennas are still in good shape, why not use them?

The post suggesting a LightSquared involvement is interesting.

Suppose LightSquared paid for a LORAN system to eliminate some opposition
to the deployment of their wifi network?

-John

===========

Hi

If you are doing a "light footprint" system, why fire up the old heavy
footprint gear at all?

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of J. Forster
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2012 10:40 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran in the US

A "light footprint" LORAN is what I've been suggesting for several days.

As to putting it into private hands, there is a potential for massive
finmancial fraud in market arbitrage. It was only a couple of weeks ago
that this made headlines with GPS timing.

-John

=============

In message 20120305113804.48FC411B9A8@karen.lavabit.com, "Charles P.
Steinmet
z" writes:

Technical merit aside, I doubt there is any chance of getting
regulatory approval for such a system, at least in the US, for
practical and political reasons.

Indeed, it's absolutely out of the question, as you well know all
our problems these days are there isn't enough God in the constitution
or something.

Thats why some people in the military is looking into a modern
more lightweight version of "Tactical Loran" for use when GPS is jammed.

--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by
incompetence.

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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If the old antennas are still in good shape, why not use them? The post suggesting a LightSquared involvement is interesting. Suppose LightSquared paid for a LORAN system to eliminate some opposition to the deployment of their wifi network? -John =========== > Hi > > If you are doing a "light footprint" system, why fire up the old heavy > footprint gear at all? > > Bob > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On > Behalf Of J. Forster > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2012 10:40 AM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran in the US > > A "light footprint" LORAN is what I've been suggesting for several days. > > As to putting it into private hands, there is a potential for massive > finmancial fraud in market arbitrage. It was only a couple of weeks ago > that this made headlines with GPS timing. > > -John > > ============= > > > >> In message <20120305113804.48FC411B9A8@karen.lavabit.com>, "Charles P. >> Steinmet >> z" writes: >> >>>Technical merit aside, I doubt there is any chance of getting >>>regulatory approval for such a system, at least in the US, for >>>practical and political reasons. >> >> Indeed, it's absolutely out of the question, as you well know all >> our problems these days are there isn't enough God in the constitution >> or something. >> >> Thats why some people in the military is looking into a modern >> more lightweight version of "Tactical Loran" for use when GPS is jammed. >> >> -- >> Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 >> phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 >> FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe >> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by >> incompetence. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > >

JF

J. Forster

Mon, Mar 5, 2012 6:09 PM

Already been done, and patented, without adding pulses to existing AM
stations.

-John

==============

The best and by far lowest cost solution is to pay TV stations and
maybe AM broadcast stations to add a timing pulse a few times per
second. No transmitters to build. The receivers would be more
complete but that is OK in 2012. In the "old days" it was to
expensive to put a complex computer inside a radio but now that is
routine. So I can imagine a receivers that can listen to 20 or 30
broadcast stations, look of the latitude and longitude of each one and
compute a best fit to the delays. Actually that is how GPS works but
only in L1

Traditionally the main problem with using comercail radios for
navigation has been then they don't issue a station ID frequenty
enough so you have to listen for a long time to know what station
you've tuned. But radio with a computer inside would know the
station by it's frequency and the approx. location of the receiver.

On Sun, Mar 4, 2012 at 1:02 PM, Charles P. Steinmetz
charles_steinmetz@lavabit.com wrote:

Antonio wrote:

Now, that the Loran C ressurection seems to be probable

I suspect that it is not yet anywhere near probable -- more likely there
is
now some remote possibility of a ressurection if many difficult
preconditions (including Congressional action) are all met.

Best regards,

Charles

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--

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Already been done, and patented, without adding pulses to existing AM stations. -John ============== > The best and by far lowest cost solution is to pay TV stations and > maybe AM broadcast stations to add a timing pulse a few times per > second. No transmitters to build. The receivers would be more > complete but that is OK in 2012. In the "old days" it was to > expensive to put a complex computer inside a radio but now that is > routine. So I can imagine a receivers that can listen to 20 or 30 > broadcast stations, look of the latitude and longitude of each one and > compute a best fit to the delays. Actually that is how GPS works but > only in L1 > > Traditionally the main problem with using comercail radios for > navigation has been then they don't issue a station ID frequenty > enough so you have to listen for a long time to know what station > you've tuned. But radio with a computer inside would know the > station by it's frequency and the approx. location of the receiver. > > > On Sun, Mar 4, 2012 at 1:02 PM, Charles P. Steinmetz > <charles_steinmetz@lavabit.com> wrote: >> Antonio wrote: >> >>> Now, that the Loran C ressurection seems to be probable >> >> >> I suspect that it is not yet anywhere near probable -- more likely there >> is >> now some remote possibility of a ressurection if many difficult >> preconditions (including Congressional action) are all met. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Charles >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > > > > -- > > Chris Albertson > Redondo Beach, California > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > >

CA

Chris Albertson

Mon, Mar 5, 2012 7:27 PM

On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 10:09 AM, J. Forster jfor@quikus.com wrote:

Already been done, and patented, without adding pulses to existing AM
stations.

Would you happen you know the patent number or something else I could
use to do a search on it? I know some one who is working on this.
I'd like to be able to point out what's already been done and
patented.

The best and by far lowest cost solution is to pay TV stations and
maybe AM broadcast stations to add a timing pulse a few times per

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 10:09 AM, J. Forster <jfor@quikus.com> wrote: > Already been done, and patented, without adding pulses to existing AM > stations. Would you happen you know the patent number or something else I could use to do a search on it? I know some one who is working on this. I'd like to be able to point out what's already been done and patented. >> The best and by far lowest cost solution is to pay TV stations and >> maybe AM broadcast stations to add a timing pulse a few times per Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California

JF

J. Forster

Mon, Mar 5, 2012 7:42 PM

Counselman Charles C III, Hall Timothy D: Instantaneous
radiopositioning using signals of opportunity. Massachusetts Institute of
Technology Jul, 25 2002: WO 2002/057806

-John

==============

On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 10:09 AM, J. Forster jfor@quikus.com wrote:

Already been done, and patented, without adding pulses to existing AM
stations.

Would you happen you know the patent number or something else I could
use to do a search on it? I know some one who is working on this.
I'd like to be able to point out what's already been done and
patented.

The best and by far lowest cost solution is to pay TV stations and
maybe AM broadcast stations to add a timing pulse a few times per

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

5. Counselman Charles C III, Hall Timothy D: Instantaneous radiopositioning using signals of opportunity. Massachusetts Institute of Technology Jul, 25 2002: WO 2002/057806 -John ============== > On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 10:09 AM, J. Forster <jfor@quikus.com> wrote: >> Already been done, and patented, without adding pulses to existing AM >> stations. > > > Would you happen you know the patent number or something else I could > use to do a search on it? I know some one who is working on this. > I'd like to be able to point out what's already been done and > patented. > > >>> The best and by far lowest cost solution is to pay TV stations and >>> maybe AM broadcast stations to add a timing pulse a few times per > Chris Albertson > Redondo Beach, California > >

PG

Peter G. Viscarola

Mon, Mar 5, 2012 8:20 PM

Counselman Charles C III, Hall Timothy D: Instantaneous radiopositioning
using signals of opportunity. Massachusetts Institute of Technology Jul, 25
2002: WO 2002/057806

That is an incredibly interesting patent. Thanks for the reference.

Peter
K1PGV

> > 5. Counselman Charles C III, Hall Timothy D: Instantaneous radiopositioning > using signals of opportunity. Massachusetts Institute of Technology Jul, 25 > 2002: WO 2002/057806 > That is an incredibly interesting patent. Thanks for the reference. Peter K1PGV

MD

Magnus Danielson

Mon, Mar 5, 2012 8:30 PM

On 03/05/2012 03:40 PM, John Ackermann N8UR wrote:

An interesting complexity of any new Loran system is that it won't be
able to rely on GPS for time synchronization!

There is nothing wrong with using GPS WHEN it works, but one has to
check if it is not reliable such that one can cut off the dependence in
time.

I still want to see the GPS receiver which pulls it off properly.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 03/05/2012 03:40 PM, John Ackermann N8UR wrote: > An interesting complexity of any new Loran system is that it won't be > able to rely on GPS for time synchronization! There is nothing wrong with using GPS WHEN it works, but one has to check if it is not reliable such that one can cut off the dependence in time. I still want to see the GPS receiver which pulls it off properly. Cheers, Magnus

A

Alain2_4GBC

Tue, Mar 6, 2012 11:39 AM

Hy Chris,

Here you can find something usefull.

http://www.bipm.org/en/si/si_brochure/

in french:
membres.multimania.fr/f1rhr/jms/rxetalon.pdf

www.datelec.fr/signaux_horaires/p0.htm

regards
F4GBC

-----Message d'origine-----
From: Chris Albertson
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2012 8:27 PM
To: jfor@quikus.com ; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran in the US

On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 10:09 AM, J. Forster jfor@quikus.com wrote:

Already been done, and patented, without adding pulses to existing AM
stations.

Would you happen you know the patent number or something else I could
use to do a search on it? I know some one who is working on this.
I'd like to be able to point out what's already been done and
patented.

The best and by far lowest cost solution is to pay TV stations and
maybe AM broadcast stations to add a timing pulse a few times per

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Hy Chris, Here you can find something usefull. http://www.bipm.org/en/si/si_brochure/ in french: membres.multimania.fr/f1rhr/jms/rxetalon.pdf www.datelec.fr/signaux_horaires/p0.htm regards F4GBC -----Message d'origine----- From: Chris Albertson Sent: Monday, March 05, 2012 8:27 PM To: jfor@quikus.com ; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran in the US On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 10:09 AM, J. Forster <jfor@quikus.com> wrote: > Already been done, and patented, without adding pulses to existing AM > stations. Would you happen you know the patent number or something else I could use to do a search on it? I know some one who is working on this. I'd like to be able to point out what's already been done and patented. >> The best and by far lowest cost solution is to pay TV stations and >> maybe AM broadcast stations to add a timing pulse a few times per Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.

JL

Jim Lux

Tue, Mar 6, 2012 2:35 PM

On 3/5/12 9:26 AM, Chris Albertson wrote:

The best and by far lowest cost solution is to pay TV stations and
maybe AM broadcast stations to add a timing pulse a few times per
second.

I suppose you could do this by the FM subcarrier broadcast approach,
too.. just like they used to distribute stock quotes, sports scores, and
GPS differential corrections.

Or, you could use pager transmissions.

On 3/5/12 9:26 AM, Chris Albertson wrote: > The best and by far lowest cost solution is to pay TV stations and > maybe AM broadcast stations to add a timing pulse a few times per > second. I suppose you could do this by the FM subcarrier broadcast approach, too.. just like they used to distribute stock quotes, sports scores, and GPS differential corrections. Or, you could use pager transmissions.

D

DaveH

Thu, Mar 8, 2012 5:23 AM

Multipath propagation issues?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multipath_propagation

We can certainly throw computational power against that wall but I think
that this would be an issue for TV stations.

AM should be better

DaveH

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com
[mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Chris Albertson
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2012 9:27 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran in the US

The best and by far lowest cost solution is to pay TV stations and
maybe AM broadcast stations to add a timing pulse a few times per
second. No transmitters to build. The receivers would be more
complete but that is OK in 2012. In the "old days" it was to
expensive to put a complex computer inside a radio but now that is
routine. So I can imagine a receivers that can listen to 20 or 30
broadcast stations, look of the latitude and longitude of each one and
compute a best fit to the delays. Actually that is how GPS works but
only in L1

Traditionally the main problem with using comercail radios for
navigation has been then they don't issue a station ID frequenty
enough so you have to listen for a long time to know what station
you've tuned. But radio with a computer inside would know the
station by it's frequency and the approx. location of the receiver.

On Sun, Mar 4, 2012 at 1:02 PM, Charles P. Steinmetz
charles_steinmetz@lavabit.com wrote:

Antonio wrote:

Now, that the Loran C ressurection seems to be probable

I suspect that it is not yet anywhere near probable -- more

likely there is

now some remote possibility of a ressurection if many difficult
preconditions (including Congressional action) are all met.

Best regards,

Charles

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

--

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Multipath propagation issues? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multipath_propagation We can certainly throw computational power against that wall but I think that this would be an issue for TV stations. AM should be better DaveH > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Chris Albertson > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2012 9:27 AM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran in the US > > The best and by far lowest cost solution is to pay TV stations and > maybe AM broadcast stations to add a timing pulse a few times per > second. No transmitters to build. The receivers would be more > complete but that is OK in 2012. In the "old days" it was to > expensive to put a complex computer inside a radio but now that is > routine. So I can imagine a receivers that can listen to 20 or 30 > broadcast stations, look of the latitude and longitude of each one and > compute a best fit to the delays. Actually that is how GPS works but > only in L1 > > Traditionally the main problem with using comercail radios for > navigation has been then they don't issue a station ID frequenty > enough so you have to listen for a long time to know what station > you've tuned. But radio with a computer inside would know the > station by it's frequency and the approx. location of the receiver. > > > On Sun, Mar 4, 2012 at 1:02 PM, Charles P. Steinmetz > <charles_steinmetz@lavabit.com> wrote: > > Antonio wrote: > > > >> Now, that the Loran C ressurection seems to be probable > > > > > > I suspect that it is not yet anywhere near probable -- more > likely there is > > now some remote possibility of a ressurection if many difficult > > preconditions (including Congressional action) are all met. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Charles > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > > -- > > Chris Albertson > Redondo Beach, California > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there.

PK

Poul-Henning Kamp

Thu, Mar 8, 2012 7:58 AM

Has anybody asked them how good time&freq they're trying to deliver ?

I would assume that they are aiming for a backup for GPS in
telecom-GPSDO context.

If so, frequency stability is priority number one and time is
probably just "better than 100msec" or so

--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

Has anybody asked them how good time&freq they're trying to deliver ? I would assume that they are aiming for a backup for GPS in telecom-GPSDO context. If so, frequency stability is priority number one and time is probably just "better than 100msec" or so -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

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Questions about Austron 5000 Loran C receiver