Bottrell@ns.sympatico.ca writes:

I think Arild has some more contacts for Canada. Perhaps he could
jump in here?
Arild, Arild where are you?

George in Toronto, where there seems to be no knowledge of
BatteryMinders ( I get a blank stare from the merchants I asked  - if
they want to be polite....)

At 04:12 PM 01/11/2002 -0500, George Geist wrote:

REPLY

Hi there!  I'm back.
Got an urgent call Dec 30  that a big trawler  needed  rewiring in a hurry.
Consequently I have been up coast  for the past week and a half.
Only just now returned to the mainland  to get  more clean work clothes and
pick up some parts.
As you  will see, this story  has some interesting aspects for several list
members.

The  22 year old main engine  broke the crankshaft and had to be replaced.
The  old Detroit  diesel was  32V  start  but the new  DDC/MTU  only comes
as a 24V  version.
The mechanic  decided it was easier to  convert the  32V system to 24V
than try to live with  a triple voltage  system.

Two new  24V  systems had to be installed  in order to run the new engine.
All the navigation  equipment  was 12V  to begin with  and the  genset  (
recently  installed ) was already  24V.
The starter motors  could not be  swapped over, and the  controller only
caomes  in 24V version.
Detroit Diesel  insist that  separate  starter and  engine controller
battery banks  MUST be used - or else!
Warranty would be voided.

Reading the  fine print  I discovered that  the  Engine controller  battery
suppl;y had some interesting  requirements.
The  average  power consumption is  4.5Amps at  24V  for the  8 cylinder
model.  BUT!  the  fuse  must be a 20 amp rating and the  power source must
be capable of  going from  0A  to  30Amps  in less than 0.6 milliseconds.
The reason being all the  fuel injectors are now  electronic; not
mechanical,  as with the old style  motors.

In addition, the  power  source  must be very secure.  Even a momentary
lapse will kill the engine.
Furthermore, if the main  power is disconnected, rather than the  shut down
( ignition) switch; the  computer will become  scrambled  and  require a
major effort  to restart.  This  may require diagnostics software  and a
mechanic  trained  in its use.,

The  manual specifically  says that the main  power disconnect MUST NOT be
turned off  until 30 seconds after the  ignition switch  is turned off.
Otherwise critical data will not be written to  non volatile RAM.

Since this trawler is driven by a single  main engine,  power  continuity
is now a crucial concen.  I opted for  dual redundant  battery chargers
and  we are going to  provide some sort of cross over  battery  tie  in
case of a battery  problem or failure.

The  ignition  switch  suddenly becomes a  potentially critical  item. To
prevent  inadvertent  toggling  into the "off"position, I opted to use  a
guarded switch  like they  use on aircraft  weapons arming  circuits.  You
have to lift a protective cover  in order to reach the toggel lever and
move it to the off position.
I also didn't like the  idea of a normal key switch because it doesn't
have a  high  peak  ( 30 amp )  rating.
The  industrial grade switch  I did use  is  much more  reliable than  most
ignition key switches.

To our dismay  we found that 24V  chargers are  about  twice as expensive
as 12V  chargers.
I  ordered  $4000 worth of chargers  and paid an extra $275  to have them
air freighted overnight  to the boat.
I  didn't order Xantrex  chargers because  Xantrex  had decided earlier
this year that they  no longer wanted to participate in this market.  Too
bad; their loss is Newmar's gain.  Good product,  available off the shelf
in quantity and  fast  world  wide delivery!

Meanwhile the  demanding  power  supply requirements for this  new digital
diesel engine controller  meant that  I had to  run  large diameter #1
cables  for a circuit that  nominally  uses  less than  5 amps  on average;
but peaks at 30A when an injector squirts.

The  installation manual was quite specifical about the total  resistance
being less than 50 milliohms from  battery to  controller.
Say what??    most mechanics don't even own a meter than  reads  such low
resistance values nor do they  usually know how to calculate this based on
wire lenght and diameter.
Oh my!  Aren't these  new environmentally  compliant engines  wonderfull!
:-(((

And then  there is the domino effect.  As I  followed through all the
various 32V  circuits  to see what had to be  converted, I discoverd all
sorts of fun.
This  80 footer  is essentially an AC boat  with one or both  gensets
running  at all times. However, since  most  heavy power use is hydraulic,
one genset  which drives a large  hydraulic pump  can be  decoupled  from
the  normal speed governor to run faster  to deliver  maximum torque and
horsepower, when  not  providing  60Hz  AC  power.
Well that means there must be  some protection  scheme incorporated  to
protect  power equipment from seeing  out of tolerance  frequency.  You
guessed it, the  frequency relays were powered by 32 volts.
And all the other  little relays and solenoids  are also 32V  including the
ship's whistle.  Every one of them has to be changed.

Just a little something  to consider  when looking at  upgrading  an old
32V  boat's electrical system or  when  looking at repowering with  one of
the new generation  digital controlled diesels.  So much for the
invinciblity  of diesel engines  in a wet hostile environment.  These new
engines  sound as  if they will be almost as  suceptible to electrical
problems as  a gasoline engine.
A repower is much more  complex than simply dropping in the new engine and
changing the battery to 24V.

Oh yes - Battery Minders!  - the original subject line.

As part of the upgrade  program  all five battery banks ( 8D X 2 = 24V
each)  are being equipped with  PulseTech desulfators.
Battery Minder  cost less but  deliver only about half as much power  as
measured on an oscilloscope.
Pulse Tech  offers  more  choice in terms of  battery  voltage ( 12, 24,
36,  48, );  powering  options ( solar,  shore power  or  stand alone)
and  from  my own tests seem to  perform better overall.

Cheers

Arild

lapse will kill the engine. Furthermore, if the main  power is disconnected,
rather than the  shut down (ignition) switch; the computer will become
scrambled and require a major effort to restart. This  may require
diagnostics software and a mechanic trained in its use.<<<<

Yow, what a loss! And people in the engine business wonder why their
wonderful world of electronically managed diesels doesn't inspire universal
enthusiasm. Wasn't one of the advantages of diesels supposed to be that they
didn't need electrics to run?

Regards, Robert Bryett
Sydney, Australia.
mailto:rbryett@mail.com

At 07:34 AM 1/12/02, you wrote:

I had a twin screw 73' powerboat with 8V-92's that malfunctioned because
the power for the electronic controls ran thru ONE single fuse for both
engines. The fuse holder was defective and we had both engines down, while
inside a harbor, in the dark with the wind blowing 35 knots.
The boat was brand new, with 75 hours on it.
We nearly made the evening news. Not good.

In another case a twin screw Tollycraft with 800hp cats. One engine had a
break in a circuit board that would shut the engine down, intermittently,
when going up and down waves. The brains would think there was a
malfunction, it would try to shut the engine down. The boat would come down
from off the wave and would come back on, by itself. They removed the shut
off piston for the remainder of the trip.
Imagine how we had to shut the engine down by hand.

Capt. Mike Maurice
Near Portland Oregon.

At 11:34 PM 01/12/2002 +1100, Robert Bryett wrote:>

REPLY
Yes!
And then the  environmentalists got into the act.
While  the intended  goal is  laudable,  I sometimes woinder if the
method of  going about it  is  really sound thinking.

Private sources tells me the  new 47 foot Coast Guard  cutters also are
experiencing some sort of trouble with  the new digital diesels. However,
this will not come into the public view unless some disaster  happens and
the  emergency response  vessel  is disabled by this  sort of electrical
power vulnerability.

^From time to time,  I am also hearing  that  the increasing  complexicity
of commercial ships  is causing  problesm therre and  may in fact
contribute to  groundings and  sinkings.    Hmmm!

Cheers

Arild

elnav@uniserve.com writes:

On a water not so far away and not so long ago I owned a 34ft
motor-sailer with a Norwegian SABB Diesel for a power-source. It had
no generator/alternator, no starter, no belt/pulley, and not a single
piece of electrical wire, none nix, nada.
(An electrical starter and a generator could be ordered as optional
equipment for lazy sailors.)
It had a mechanical tachometer and to start it one used a handcrank
through a clever set of gears and chains. To preheat it on very cold
days, one opened a plug and inserted a cigarette butt into the first
cylinder.
Lloyds of London approved it as a lifeboat engine because of its
ruggedness and its ability to run under water, provided one could get
air into it. Now that was a marine engine; and in spite of my opening
line, this is not a fairy tale!!!

Cheers - George

It should come into view at the MLB maintanence advisory web page.
http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-a/47'mlb/mlbwrtyadvisories.htm
I find this interesting reading. For example item 41.Secondary Fuel Filters
where Detroit Diesel Corporation is recommending finer secondary filters for
USCG MLB use. If you go to
http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-a/47'mlb/status/MLBSTATUSFIELD26.html they say, "We
have recently been advised by DDC that they are recommending a different
secondary fuel filter for use in our application. Our current secondary fuel
filter has a 6 to 8 micron rating; the new filter being recommended has a
2.5 to 5.5 micron rating." Very interesting considering DD filter
discussions we have had in the past.

Cheers;
Mike Schooley
Trailerable Trawler wannabe