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TWL: Too much on top

M
mikem@yachtsdelivered.com
Sat, Jul 28, 2001 5:08 PM

One of my pet peeves has to do with the ever increasing level of junk being
placed above the center of gravity on most boats. For instance: the boat
before had a too large dinghy and crane placed on the stb side. The boat
lists to stb, naturally. All this is placed about 10 feet above the CG.  If
it weighs 1500 pounds, that is equivalent to 15,000 pounds of moment placed
one foot above the CG. The boat was also equipped with stabilizers. Not
that they were put on to compensate for the dink. On the other hand, what
is a fellow to do if he gets into rough water and has to slow down which
lowers the effect of the stabilizers, which is all that is keeping the boat
from rolling excessively?

Then there was the 120 footer in the Carib last month, that had 10,000
pounds of boats, gym equipment and LIFTING weights placed about 15 feet
above the CG. That's 150,000 pounds of moment placed one foot above the CG.
It too had stabilizers. Does anyone think that stabilizers are the solution
to excess rolling?

Any boat set up this way, is not a good candidate for being out in the open
in rough conditions or a storm.

Then there is the client with the 63' steel trawler, about 25 years old. It
rolls excessively and has NO stabilizers.  Over the years the boat has been
modified repeatededly. Most likely without benefit of a naval architect
analysing the effect of all the changes of mass and it's effect on the CG.

The list of these kinds of problems is almost endless.

Take a good look at your own situation. Bet you haven't thought about this
creeping kind of problem on your boat, recently. If you get to sea in a big
storm, I bet you will before you get to safety.

Regards,
Mike

Capt. Mike Maurice
Near Portland Oregon.

One of my pet peeves has to do with the ever increasing level of junk being placed above the center of gravity on most boats. For instance: the boat before had a too large dinghy and crane placed on the stb side. The boat lists to stb, naturally. All this is placed about 10 feet above the CG. If it weighs 1500 pounds, that is equivalent to 15,000 pounds of moment placed one foot above the CG. The boat was also equipped with stabilizers. Not that they were put on to compensate for the dink. On the other hand, what is a fellow to do if he gets into rough water and has to slow down which lowers the effect of the stabilizers, which is all that is keeping the boat from rolling excessively? Then there was the 120 footer in the Carib last month, that had 10,000 pounds of boats, gym equipment and LIFTING weights placed about 15 feet above the CG. That's 150,000 pounds of moment placed one foot above the CG. It too had stabilizers. Does anyone think that stabilizers are the solution to excess rolling? Any boat set up this way, is not a good candidate for being out in the open in rough conditions or a storm. Then there is the client with the 63' steel trawler, about 25 years old. It rolls excessively and has NO stabilizers. Over the years the boat has been modified repeatededly. Most likely without benefit of a naval architect analysing the effect of all the changes of mass and it's effect on the CG. The list of these kinds of problems is almost endless. Take a good look at your own situation. Bet you haven't thought about this creeping kind of problem on your boat, recently. If you get to sea in a big storm, I bet you will before you get to safety. Regards, Mike Capt. Mike Maurice Near Portland Oregon.
T
twl@halwyman.com
Sat, Jul 28, 2001 5:25 PM

One of my pet peeves has to do with the ever increasing level of
junk being
placed above the center of gravity on most boats.

Mike makes some good points about the relationship between CG and safety but
I think he neglected to mention the positive effect increasing the roll
moment of intertia (by placing weight far from the center of roll) can have
on stability in some cases.

Increasing the roll moment makes the roll period longer, and thus the boat
less "tender".  If a boat has an excessively fast roll period it will
quickly respond to, for example, a beam sea.  A longer roll period can allow
beam seas to pass under the boat before a roll can have a chance to develop.
The solution to a problem with too quick a roll period?  Increase it by
adding weight away from the roll axis.

This is usually most easily done by adding weight up high which can have the
undesirable effect of decreasing the stability range so it is certainly a
matter for a qualified marine architect to consider.

I also agree with Mike that stabilizers are no substitute for stability, but
even in a properly designed, very seaworthy, round-bilged displacement hull
roll is usually a problem, but from a comfort, not a safety, consideration.
In my opinion any owner-operated motor yacht going offshore must be
stabilized for comfort, unless in the hands of a solo masochist.

Captain Hal

> > One of my pet peeves has to do with the ever increasing level of > junk being > placed above the center of gravity on most boats. Mike makes some good points about the relationship between CG and safety but I think he neglected to mention the positive effect increasing the roll moment of intertia (by placing weight far from the center of roll) can have on stability in some cases. Increasing the roll moment makes the roll period longer, and thus the boat less "tender". If a boat has an excessively fast roll period it will quickly respond to, for example, a beam sea. A longer roll period can allow beam seas to pass under the boat before a roll can have a chance to develop. The solution to a problem with too quick a roll period? Increase it by adding weight away from the roll axis. This is usually most easily done by adding weight up high which can have the undesirable effect of decreasing the stability range so it is certainly a matter for a qualified marine architect to consider. I also agree with Mike that stabilizers are no substitute for stability, but even in a properly designed, very seaworthy, round-bilged displacement hull roll is usually a problem, but from a comfort, not a safety, consideration. In my opinion any owner-operated motor yacht going offshore must be stabilized for comfort, unless in the hands of a solo masochist. Captain Hal
S
schooley@keyway.net
Sat, Jul 28, 2001 6:06 PM

Captain Hal wrote, "Increasing the roll moment makes the roll period longer,
and thus the boat less "tender".  If a boat has an excessively fast roll
period it will quickly respond to, for example, a beam sea.  A longer roll
period can allow beam seas to pass under the boat before a roll can have a
chance to develop. The solution to a problem with too quick a roll period?
Increase it by adding weight away from the roll axis."

However roll inertia is a double edged sword. Although higher roll inertia
slows the roll response it also increases the energy storage, so once the
vessel does roll it takes longer to dampen out. In vessels the size we are
talking about it is impossible to increase the natural roll frequency to a
value higher than the natural frequency of waves, so while you might make it
better for one wave frequency it will be worse for longer wave lengths,
closer to the new natural roll frequency, and the range of motion will be
higher. If your Naval Architect did his job right, he will have optimized
the roll inertia for your application. If it is optimized, then anything you
do to change it will only make it worse. If your Naval Architect didn't do
his job right it will take a better Naval Architect to fix it. I doubt you
will improve it for all conditions by trial and errors.

Sincerely;
Mike Schooley
Trailerable Trawler wannabe

Captain Hal wrote, "Increasing the roll moment makes the roll period longer, and thus the boat less "tender". If a boat has an excessively fast roll period it will quickly respond to, for example, a beam sea. A longer roll period can allow beam seas to pass under the boat before a roll can have a chance to develop. The solution to a problem with too quick a roll period? Increase it by adding weight away from the roll axis." However roll inertia is a double edged sword. Although higher roll inertia slows the roll response it also increases the energy storage, so once the vessel does roll it takes longer to dampen out. In vessels the size we are talking about it is impossible to increase the natural roll frequency to a value higher than the natural frequency of waves, so while you might make it better for one wave frequency it will be worse for longer wave lengths, closer to the new natural roll frequency, and the range of motion will be higher. If your Naval Architect did his job right, he will have optimized the roll inertia for your application. If it is optimized, then anything you do to change it will only make it worse. If your Naval Architect didn't do his job right it will take a better Naval Architect to fix it. I doubt you will improve it for all conditions by trial and errors. Sincerely; Mike Schooley Trailerable Trawler wannabe
R
rbryett@mail.com
Sat, Jul 28, 2001 11:39 PM

Then there was the 120 footer in the Carib last month, that had 10,000

pounds of boats, gym equipment and LIFTING weights placed about 15 feet
above the CG. That's 150,000 pounds of moment placed one foot above the CG.
It too had stabilizers. Does anyone think that stabilizers are the solution
to excess rolling? Any boat set up this way, is not a good candidate for
being out in the open in rough conditions or a storm.<<<<

Leaving aside their basic weight, I hope all that gear was properly
secured. One of MY pet peeves is heavy equipment, furniture and other
objects placed (I hesitate to use the word installed) on boats with little
thought to how they would move around in rough weather or a knockdown. The
mind just boggles at the thought of what a set of exercise weights could do
sliding about in such circumstances.

Regards, Robert Bryett
Sydney, Australia
mailto:rbryett@mail.com

>>>>Then there was the 120 footer in the Carib last month, that had 10,000 pounds of boats, gym equipment and LIFTING weights placed about 15 feet above the CG. That's 150,000 pounds of moment placed one foot above the CG. It too had stabilizers. Does anyone think that stabilizers are the solution to excess rolling? Any boat set up this way, is not a good candidate for being out in the open in rough conditions or a storm.<<<< Leaving aside their basic weight, I hope all that gear was properly secured. One of MY pet peeves is heavy equipment, furniture and other objects placed (I hesitate to use the word installed) on boats with little thought to how they would move around in rough weather or a knockdown. The mind just boggles at the thought of what a set of exercise weights could do sliding about in such circumstances. Regards, Robert Bryett Sydney, Australia mailto:rbryett@mail.com
Z
zhyachts@pub.zhuhai.gd.cn
Sun, Jul 29, 2001 12:11 AM

Hal wrote:

the positive effect increasing the roll
moment of inertia (by placing weight far from the center of roll) can have
on stability in some cases.

I've delivered motorsailers without their masts across the Pearl River delta
and if the seas are kicking up and we try to hold a beam sea course the
motion is almost unbearable.  The boat snaps side to side through 80 to 100
degree rolls.

If I remember correctly in the Force 10 sailboat race disaster all boats
that capsized had already lost their masts.

Bill and Stella Kimley
Seahorse Marine, Zhuhai China
Tel# 86-756-550-2145
Fax# 86-756-333-5901
www.SeahorseYachts.com

Hal wrote: >the positive effect increasing the roll >moment of inertia (by placing weight far from the center of roll) can have >on stability in some cases. I've delivered motorsailers without their masts across the Pearl River delta and if the seas are kicking up and we try to hold a beam sea course the motion is almost unbearable. The boat snaps side to side through 80 to 100 degree rolls. If I remember correctly in the Force 10 sailboat race disaster all boats that capsized had already lost their masts. Bill and Stella Kimley Seahorse Marine, Zhuhai China Tel# 86-756-550-2145 Fax# 86-756-333-5901 www.SeahorseYachts.com