Empathy List Archives

RA

Rudy and Jill

Mon, Mar 28, 2011 12:58 PM

I've queried the Coast Guard and the Fl Marine Patrol as to their opinions regarding which vessels in a raft-up must show the appropriate dayshape or lights, and am still awaiting their replies. What started out as an off-the-cuff remark to Rich over a Delicious supper, has turned into an interesting, but what could also be, an important topic.

But Roger's post, citing court precedences, gives much weight to the need for each vessel to show appropriate lights/shapes.

I suspect that it all rests on 33 CFR 82.5 (International Rule) and 33 CFR 90.5 (Inland Rule)- "Lights for moored vessels". These rules are in the back end of my book of Coloregs.

Inland Rules state- "A vessel at anchor includes a vessel made fast to one or more mooring buoys or other similar device attached to the ocean floor. Such vessels may be lighted as a vessel at anchor in accordance with Rule 30, or may be lighted on the corners in accordance with 33 CFR 88.13".

International Rule, 33 CFR 82.5 is essentially the same as the Inland Rules, with the exception that the word vessel is replaced by barge.

Annex V. 33 CFR 88.13- Lights on Moored Barges is too long to reproduce here, but it can be found in most Coloregs.

Now we can probably argue semantics, as the word "barge" is not defined in the coloregs, but since the word "moored" is defined in both the Inland and International Rules (33 CFR 82.5 and 33 CFR 90.5), my suspicion is these two rules is the basis for the court's rulings that Roger cited in his post.

Talking about anchor lights, I'd like to present this scenario for the benefits of those who may be able to glean some benefit from it.

Friday night we were anchored in a bayou surrounded by trees. A couple of sailboats were also anchored and they all had masthead "anchor" lights on.

In the dark, their hulls could not be seen, even though we were less than 50 feet from them and we even knew that they were there. Their anchor lights were white and bright, easily seen; also, easily mistaken for a star as they were visible above the trees. But, what is important is that it was not possible to see that these lights were attached to anything, especially something as thin as their masts.

Not being able to see that the anchor lights were attached to anything, nor being able to see their hulls makes it so easy to mistake the lights for stars. Right or wrong, that's what would happen.

So a boat traveling through the bayou could very well have run into one of these sailboats purely because the boat couldn't be seen and their anchor light, not only being mistaken for a star, but compounded by being high up enough for someone in a pilot house, or in a cockpit covered with a Bimini, to not be able to see it when motoring around the bayou, even motoring slowly.

We're thinking that it is not enough for an anchor light to be seen, it must also be recognized. As with this night, there are times when additional steps must be taken for this second requirement to be accomplished. Someone cannot avoid a boat, if they just plain can't see it.

So it would seem that there are times, if you want to avoid a collision, when it is best for a vessel to take additional action, even though "legally" they are in compliance with the regs.

This situation is not limited to bayous. We've noticed many times that boats, even in open waters, are difficult, at best, to see during some nights, and it's even harder when the moonlight is minimal or non-existent.

Rudy
Briney Bug, Panama City, Fl

I've queried the Coast Guard and the Fl Marine Patrol as to their opinions regarding which vessels in a raft-up must show the appropriate dayshape or lights, and am still awaiting their replies. What started out as an off-the-cuff remark to Rich over a Delicious supper, has turned into an interesting, but what could also be, an important topic. But Roger's post, citing court precedences, gives much weight to the need for each vessel to show appropriate lights/shapes. I suspect that it all rests on 33 CFR 82.5 (International Rule) and 33 CFR 90.5 (Inland Rule)- "Lights for moored vessels". These rules are in the back end of my book of Coloregs. Inland Rules state- "A vessel at anchor includes a vessel made fast to one or more mooring buoys or other similar device attached to the ocean floor. Such vessels may be lighted as a vessel at anchor in accordance with Rule 30, or may be lighted on the corners in accordance with 33 CFR 88.13". International Rule, 33 CFR 82.5 is essentially the same as the Inland Rules, with the exception that the word vessel is replaced by barge. Annex V. 33 CFR 88.13- Lights on Moored Barges is too long to reproduce here, but it can be found in most Coloregs. Now we can probably argue semantics, as the word "barge" is not defined in the coloregs, but since the word "moored" is defined in both the Inland and International Rules (33 CFR 82.5 and 33 CFR 90.5), my suspicion is these two rules is the basis for the court's rulings that Roger cited in his post. Talking about anchor lights, I'd like to present this scenario for the benefits of those who may be able to glean some benefit from it. Friday night we were anchored in a bayou surrounded by trees. A couple of sailboats were also anchored and they all had masthead "anchor" lights on. In the dark, their hulls could not be seen, even though we were less than 50 feet from them and we even knew that they were there. Their anchor lights were white and bright, easily seen; also, easily mistaken for a star as they were visible above the trees. But, what is important is that it was not possible to see that these lights were attached to anything, especially something as thin as their masts. Not being able to see that the anchor lights were attached to anything, nor being able to see their hulls makes it so easy to mistake the lights for stars. Right or wrong, that's what would happen. So a boat traveling through the bayou could very well have run into one of these sailboats purely because the boat couldn't be seen and their anchor light, not only being mistaken for a star, but compounded by being high up enough for someone in a pilot house, or in a cockpit covered with a Bimini, to not be able to see it when motoring around the bayou, even motoring slowly. We're thinking that it is not enough for an anchor light to be seen, it must also be recognized. As with this night, there are times when additional steps must be taken for this second requirement to be accomplished. Someone cannot avoid a boat, if they just plain can't see it. So it would seem that there are times, if you want to avoid a collision, when it is best for a vessel to take additional action, even though "legally" they are in compliance with the regs. This situation is not limited to bayous. We've noticed many times that boats, even in open waters, are difficult, at best, to see during some nights, and it's even harder when the moonlight is minimal or non-existent. Rudy Briney Bug, Panama City, Fl

RB

Roger Bingham

Mon, Mar 28, 2011 1:50 PM

"Prudent seamanship" is not just an abstract concept - the courts will apply
this measure when determining liability/blame.

Roger Bingham
France

But Roger's post, citing court precedences, gives much weight to the
need for each vessel to show appropriate lights/shapes.

"Prudent seamanship" is not just an abstract concept - the courts will apply this measure when determining liability/blame. Roger Bingham France > But Roger's post, citing court precedences, gives much weight to the > need for each vessel to show appropriate lights/shapes.

MR

Mark Richter

Mon, Mar 28, 2011 2:13 PM

Anchor lights at the top of masts are good for open roadsteads, not so good
in smaller enclosed or crowded anchorages. I choose to mount Pooh's anchor
light on top of the radar on the Pilothouse roof (12' off the water)
instead of 34' above the water on the masthead. Small fishing boats and
dinghys (many traveling very fast in the dark) are more likely to see the
lower-mounted light, even though it is occluded over a very small arc by the
mast aft. An alternate solution could include adding solar garden lights at
rail level to an existing high mounted but legal anchor light.

As for the raft-up, why wouldn't you want to show your anchor light? Surely
a trawler's big self-contained electrical system can stand the small 1-amp
drain of an anchor light. If not, get an approved LED anchor light, drawing
about 0.1 amp.

Mark Richter, "Winnie the Pooh", Ortona, FL on the Okeechobee Waterway

<<A couple of sailboats were also anchored and they all had masthead
"anchor" lights on.
<<In the dark, their hulls could not be seen, even though we were less than
50 feet from them and we <<even knew that they were there. Their anchor
lights were white and bright, easily seen; also, easily <<mistaken for a
star as they were visible above the trees. But, what is important is that it
was not <<possible to see that these lights were attached to anything,
especially something as thin as their masts.

<<Not being able to see that the anchor lights were attached to anything,
nor being able to see their hulls <<makes it so easy to mistake the lights
for stars. Right or wrong, that's what would happen.

<<So a boat traveling through the bayou could very well have run into one of
these sailboats purely <<because the boat couldn't be seen and their anchor
light, not only being mistaken for a star, but <<compounded by being high up
enough for someone in a pilot house, or in a cockpit covered with a
<<Bimini, to not be able to see it when motoring around the bayou, even
motoring slowly.

Anchor lights at the top of masts are good for open roadsteads, not so good in smaller enclosed or crowded anchorages. I choose to mount Pooh's anchor light on top of the radar on the Pilothouse roof (12' off the water) instead of 34' above the water on the masthead. Small fishing boats and dinghys (many traveling very fast in the dark) are more likely to see the lower-mounted light, even though it is occluded over a very small arc by the mast aft. An alternate solution could include adding solar garden lights at rail level to an existing high mounted but legal anchor light. As for the raft-up, why wouldn't you want to show your anchor light? Surely a trawler's big self-contained electrical system can stand the small 1-amp drain of an anchor light. If not, get an approved LED anchor light, drawing about 0.1 amp. Mark Richter, "Winnie the Pooh", Ortona, FL on the Okeechobee Waterway <<A couple of sailboats were also anchored and they all had masthead "anchor" lights on. <<In the dark, their hulls could not be seen, even though we were less than 50 feet from them and we <<even knew that they were there. Their anchor lights were white and bright, easily seen; also, easily <<mistaken for a star as they were visible above the trees. But, what is important is that it was not <<possible to see that these lights were attached to anything, especially something as thin as their masts. <<Not being able to see that the anchor lights were attached to anything, nor being able to see their hulls <<makes it so easy to mistake the lights for stars. Right or wrong, that's what would happen. <<So a boat traveling through the bayou could very well have run into one of these sailboats purely <<because the boat couldn't be seen and their anchor light, not only being mistaken for a star, but <<compounded by being high up enough for someone in a pilot house, or in a cockpit covered with a <<Bimini, to not be able to see it when motoring around the bayou, even motoring slowly.

PB

Peter Bennett

Mon, Mar 28, 2011 3:49 PM

Monday, March 28, 2011, 5:58:54 AM, Rudy wrote:

<snippage> RaJ> Talking about anchor lights, I'd like to present this scenario RaJ> for the benefits of those who may be able to glean some benefit from it.

RaJ> Friday night we were anchored in a bayou surrounded by trees. A
RaJ> couple of sailboats were also anchored and they all had masthead "anchor" lights on.

RaJ> In the dark, their hulls could not be seen, even though we were
RaJ> less than 50 feet from them and we even knew that they were
RaJ> there. Their anchor lights were white and bright, easily seen;
RaJ> also, easily mistaken for a star as they were visible above the
RaJ> trees. But, what is important is that it was not possible to see
RaJ> that these lights were attached to anything, especially something as thin as their masts.

For this reason, when I was a sailor, I never used the masthead
anchor light - I always used a kerosene lantern hung from the
forestay, about 6 ft above the deck.

--
Peter Bennett, VE7CEI Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Ennos 31 "Honeycomb"
GPS and NMEA info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter
Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca

Monday, March 28, 2011, 5:58:54 AM, Rudy wrote: <snippage> RaJ> Talking about anchor lights, I'd like to present this scenario RaJ> for the benefits of those who may be able to glean some benefit from it. RaJ> Friday night we were anchored in a bayou surrounded by trees. A RaJ> couple of sailboats were also anchored and they all had masthead "anchor" lights on. RaJ> In the dark, their hulls could not be seen, even though we were RaJ> less than 50 feet from them and we even knew that they were RaJ> there. Their anchor lights were white and bright, easily seen; RaJ> also, easily mistaken for a star as they were visible above the RaJ> trees. But, what is important is that it was not possible to see RaJ> that these lights were attached to anything, especially something as thin as their masts. For this reason, when I was a sailor, I never used the masthead anchor light - I always used a kerosene lantern hung from the forestay, about 6 ft above the deck. -- Peter Bennett, VE7CEI Vancouver, B.C., Canada Ennos 31 "Honeycomb" GPS and NMEA info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca

JW

Joel Wilkins

Mon, Mar 28, 2011 7:36 PM

Snip...For this reason, when I was a sailor, I never used the masthead anchor
light - I always used a kerosene lantern hung from the forestay, about 6 ft
above the deck.

Reply...
Must also keep in mind rule 22 though that says
(12-50 meter boats) that the
mast head light must be visible from 5 NM.
Requires approx 25 feet above
sealevel and pretty high intensity. What is
does not say (but IMO presumes) is
that the anchor light IS the masthead
light. For this reason, combined with "all
round" visibility, most sailors
use the masthead light as the anchor light. If
you use something other than
your masthead allround light as your anchor light I
presume you cover blind
spots with a second light.

The Annex I also states that the masthead light
for powerdriven vessels must be
at least 2.5 meters above the gunwales.

I
cover the bases with masthead light and (rule 30c) deck working lights. I use
those solar powered lawn lights (about 4-6) hung from the lifelines. Makes it
easy for me to distinguish my boat from others in a dark anchorage.

Joel
Wilkins
m/s Miss Magoo
Columbia 45
Treasure Island, FL

Snip...For this reason, when I was a sailor, I never used the masthead anchor light - I always used a kerosene lantern hung from the forestay, about 6 ft above the deck. Reply... Must also keep in mind rule 22 though that says (12-50 meter boats) that the mast head light must be visible from 5 NM. Requires approx 25 feet above sealevel and pretty high intensity. What is does not say (but IMO presumes) is that the anchor light IS the masthead light. For this reason, combined with "all round" visibility, most sailors use the masthead light as the anchor light. If you use something other than your masthead allround light as your anchor light I presume you cover blind spots with a second light. The Annex I also states that the masthead light for powerdriven vessels must be at least 2.5 meters above the gunwales. I cover the bases with masthead light and (rule 30c) deck working lights. I use those solar powered lawn lights (about 4-6) hung from the lifelines. Makes it easy for me to distinguish my boat from others in a dark anchorage. Joel Wilkins m/s Miss Magoo Columbia 45 Treasure Island, FL

RA

Rudy and Jill

Mon, Mar 28, 2011 8:58 PM

Boy, this is fun. Looking this stuff up helps remind or reinforce the rules in my mind. If I may...

"Not Under Command", by definition (Rule 3), means "a vessel which through some exceptional circumstances is unable to maneuver as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel".

It has always been made a point of, in all of the classes that we've attended, that exceptional circumstances is like a break down or some unforeseen event that renders the vessel unable to be manuevered. It would appear that being anchored or rafted-up does not meet this criterea.

Must also keep in mind rule 22 though that says
(12-50 meter boats) that the
mast head light must be visible from 5 NM.

On this one, I misspoke, but hoped no one would get confused. I should have said, instead of "masthead light", an anchor light at the top of the mast or better yet, an all-round white light.

A masthead light, commonly also called a steaming light, by definition (Rule 21) means "a white light placed over the fore and aft centerline of the vessel showing an unbroken light over an arc of the horizon of 225 degrees and so fixed as to show the light from right ahead to 22.5 degrees abaft the beam on either side of the vessel".

Note in Rule 22 prescribes different visibilities of the masthead light for different length vessels, which is also true for anchor lights, which the Coloregs call "all round white lights.

Me thinks that for me to understand the Coloregs, I need, but don't have, a photographic memory! Anyone spot flaws in the above?

Rudy
Briney Bug, Panama City, Fl

Boy, this is fun. Looking this stuff up helps remind or reinforce the rules in my mind. If I may... "Not Under Command", by definition (Rule 3), means "a vessel which through some exceptional circumstances is unable to maneuver as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel". It has always been made a point of, in all of the classes that we've attended, that exceptional circumstances is like a break down or some unforeseen event that renders the vessel unable to be manuevered. It would appear that being anchored or rafted-up does not meet this criterea. > Must also keep in mind rule 22 though that says > (12-50 meter boats) that the > mast head light must be visible from 5 NM. On this one, I misspoke, but hoped no one would get confused. I should have said, instead of "masthead light", an anchor light at the top of the mast or better yet, an all-round white light. A masthead light, commonly also called a steaming light, by definition (Rule 21) means "a white light placed over the fore and aft centerline of the vessel showing an unbroken light over an arc of the horizon of 225 degrees and so fixed as to show the light from right ahead to 22.5 degrees abaft the beam on either side of the vessel". Note in Rule 22 prescribes different visibilities of the masthead light for different length vessels, which is also true for anchor lights, which the Coloregs call "all round white lights. Me thinks that for me to understand the Coloregs, I need, but don't have, a photographic memory! Anyone spot flaws in the above? Rudy Briney Bug, Panama City, Fl

AJ

Arild Jensen

Mon, Mar 28, 2011 9:33 PM

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rudy and Jill" rudysechez@yahoo.com

It has always been made a point of, in all of the classes that we've
attended, that exceptional circumstances is like a break down or some
unforeseen event that renders the vessel unable to be manuevered. It would
appear that being anchored or rafted-up does not meet this criterea.

REPLY
that is a short coming of the instructor. A vessel at sea is expected to be
under command at all times with the helm or bridge manned and engineering
standing by the propulsion machinery.
Exceptional circumstances is anything that prevents the vessel from being
ready to maneuver at all times. A sleeping single hander also falls under
this definition.
By definition a vessel is under way if it does not have its own anchor down
or is secured to a shore side dock
A vessel on a mooring ball still sets an anchor watch because by definition
it is still technically under way even if not under command.
Arild

----- Original Message ----- From: "Rudy and Jill" <rudysechez@yahoo.com> > It has always been made a point of, in all of the classes that we've > attended, that exceptional circumstances is like a break down or some > unforeseen event that renders the vessel unable to be manuevered. It would > appear that being anchored or rafted-up does not meet this criterea. REPLY that is a short coming of the instructor. A vessel at sea is expected to be under command at all times with the helm or bridge manned and engineering standing by the propulsion machinery. Exceptional circumstances is anything that prevents the vessel from being ready to maneuver at all times. A sleeping single hander also falls under this definition. By definition a vessel is under way if it does not have its own anchor down or is secured to a shore side dock A vessel on a mooring ball still sets an anchor watch because by definition it is still technically under way even if not under command. Arild

RB

Roger Bingham

Tue, Mar 29, 2011 1:24 PM

Sorry Arild

A vessel secured to a mooring ball is deemed to be at anchor and must comply
with light and sound signals as appropriate.
See 33 USC '' 82.5 & 90.5
See also Sunderland Marine Mutual Insurance Co Ltd v. Weeks Marine
Construction Co. 338 F.3d 1276, 2003 A.M.C. 1983 (11th Circuit 2003)

Also

If a vessel's anchor is dragging it is "not under command".

Thanks again to "Farwell's Rules of the Nautical Road".

Regards

Roger Bingham
France

20 hours to go!!

Sorry Arild A vessel secured to a mooring ball is deemed to be at anchor and must comply with light and sound signals as appropriate. See 33 USC '' 82.5 & 90.5 See also Sunderland Marine Mutual Insurance Co Ltd v. Weeks Marine Construction Co. 338 F.3d 1276, 2003 A.M.C. 1983 (11th Circuit 2003) Also If a vessel's anchor is dragging it is "not under command". Thanks again to "Farwell's Rules of the Nautical Road". Regards Roger Bingham France 20 hours to go!!

trawlers@lists.trawlering.com

Rafted up vessels and anchor lights