The HP 115BR clock was available with an optional 60 Hz output. The service manual mentions the option but provides no schematic. My 115BR has the 60 Hz output option (a front-panel placard reads "Specif. H08 115R), and after running it for over 30 years, I'm finally getting around to using it to drive a synchronous motor clock via a small class-D power amp and step-up transformer. However, the 60 Hz output level is very low, around 60 mV p-p, and somewhat distorted.  I doubt HP designed it that way.  Before going to the trouble of reverse-engineering it, I thought I'd check to see if anyone has seen a schematic or other information on this option? Many Thanks, John

Sorry I can’t contribute here. My 113AR does not have a 60 Hz output option, which could be convenient for running a standard clock. The outputs of my 113AR are half a volt, approximately. A 60 mV output does sound on the low side. Possibly tvb (Tom Van Baak) will see your message and respond. He has a 115 and probably the manual too, although I don’t know if his 115 has the option of a 60 Hz output. Jeremy N6WFO On Mon, Mar 6, 2023 at 4:22 AM John Vendely via time-nuts < time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote: > The HP 115BR clock was available with an optional 60 Hz output. The > service manual mentions the option but provides no schematic. My 115BR > has the 60 Hz output option (a front-panel placard reads "Specif. H08 > 115R), and after running it for over 30 years, I'm finally getting > around to using it to drive a synchronous motor clock via a small > class-D power amp and step-up transformer. However, the 60 Hz output > level is very low, around 60 mV p-p, and somewhat distorted. I doubt HP > designed it that way. Before going to the trouble of > reverse-engineering it, I thought I'd check to see if anyone has seen a > schematic or other information on this option? > > Many Thanks, > > John > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com -- Jeremy Nichols Sent from my iPad 6.

Hi Jeremy, Thanks for the reply.  If nothing else, I'm curious to see how HP accomplished the 60 cycle output option.  Though trivial today, synthesizing 60 cycles from the frequencies available in the 115BR wasn't so convenient back then, given the primarily analog and rudimentary digital methods available at the time... 73, John K9WT On 3/6/2023 7:24 PM, Jeremy Nichols via time-nuts wrote: > Sorry I can’t contribute here. My 113AR does not have a 60 Hz output > option, which could be convenient for running a standard clock. The outputs > of my 113AR are half a volt, approximately. A 60 mV output does sound on > the low side. > > Possibly tvb (Tom Van Baak) will see your message and respond. He has a 115 > and probably the manual too, although I don’t know if his 115 has the > option of a 60 Hz output. > > Jeremy > N6WFO > > > > On Mon, Mar 6, 2023 at 4:22 AM John Vendely via time-nuts < > time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote: > >> The HP 115BR clock was available with an optional 60 Hz output. The >> service manual mentions the option but provides no schematic. My 115BR >> has the 60 Hz output option (a front-panel placard reads "Specif. H08 >> 115R), and after running it for over 30 years, I'm finally getting >> around to using it to drive a synchronous motor clock via a small >> class-D power amp and step-up transformer. However, the 60 Hz output >> level is very low, around 60 mV p-p, and somewhat distorted. I doubt HP >> designed it that way. Before going to the trouble of >> reverse-engineering it, I thought I'd check to see if anyone has seen a >> schematic or other information on this option? >> >> Many Thanks, >> >> John >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >> To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com

Early HP (and other?) frequency standards generated frequency sub-multiples using either regenerative or phantastron dividers. Regenerative dividers are used primarily because they are NOT self starting. If anything interrupts the circuit, the outputs stop, signaling the operator that the clock is now in error. Phantastron divide-by-10 circuits work by summing pulses, the circuit being constructed so that 10 pulses into the phantastron yields one pulse out. The circuits typically contain adjustable elements allowing the operator to ‘tune’ the circuit for 9, 10, or 11 pulses. It would be easy (he says!) to modify such a circuit to sum 6 pulses instead of 10, before triggering an output pulse. That would get you 60 Hz instead of 100 Hz, for example. On Tue, Mar 7, 2023 at 9:20 AM John Vendely via time-nuts < time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote: > Hi Jeremy, > > Thanks for the reply. If nothing else, I'm curious to see how HP > accomplished the 60 cycle output option. Though trivial today, > synthesizing 60 cycles from the frequencies available in the 115BR > wasn't so convenient back then, given the primarily analog and > rudimentary digital methods available at the time... > > 73, > > John K9WT > > On 3/6/2023 7:24 PM, Jeremy Nichols via time-nuts wrote: > > Sorry I can’t contribute here. My 113AR does not have a 60 Hz output > > option, which could be convenient for running a standard clock. The > outputs > > of my 113AR are half a volt, approximately. A 60 mV output does sound on > > the low side. > > > > Possibly tvb (Tom Van Baak) will see your message and respond. He has a > 115 > > and probably the manual too, although I don’t know if his 115 has the > > option of a 60 Hz output. > > > > Jeremy > > N6WFO > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 6, 2023 at 4:22 AM John Vendely via time-nuts < > > time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote: > > > >> The HP 115BR clock was available with an optional 60 Hz output. The > >> service manual mentions the option but provides no schematic. My 115BR > >> has the 60 Hz output option (a front-panel placard reads "Specif. H08 > >> 115R), and after running it for over 30 years, I'm finally getting > >> around to using it to drive a synchronous motor clock via a small > >> class-D power amp and step-up transformer. However, the 60 Hz output > >> level is very low, around 60 mV p-p, and somewhat distorted. I doubt HP > >> designed it that way. Before going to the trouble of > >> reverse-engineering it, I thought I'd check to see if anyone has seen a > >> schematic or other information on this option? > >> > >> Many Thanks, > >> > >> John > >> _______________________________________________ > >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > >> To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com -- Jeremy Nichols Sent from my iPad 6.

On Tue, March 7, 2023 10:29 am, John Vendely via time-nuts wrote: > If nothing else, I'm curious to see how HP > accomplished the 60 cycle output option. That would be interesting. The service manual is available at ko4bb.com and has a note that the aux output is 0.25V RMS minimum (so 0.06V is definitely below spec), and the parts list has V102 as a photocell used for the 60 cps option only. I am not familiar with any divider circuit which uses a photocell, but perhaps that will ring a bell with someone else. -- Chris Caudle

Thanks, JohnV., for that timely contribution. My 113AR (“similar but different,”) uses lights, photocells, and mechanical choppers to create 1KHz and 1 Hz pulses; it would not be much different to use a chopper wheel with different spacing to generate a 60 Hz output. On Tue, Mar 7, 2023 at 11:02 AM Chris Caudle via time-nuts < time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote: > > On Tue, March 7, 2023 10:29 am, John Vendely via time-nuts wrote: > > If nothing else, I'm curious to see how HP > > accomplished the 60 cycle output option. > > That would be interesting. > The service manual is available at ko4bb.com and has a note that the aux > output is 0.25V RMS minimum (so 0.06V is definitely below spec), and the > parts list has V102 as a photocell used for the 60 cps option only. > > I am not familiar with any divider circuit which uses a photocell, but > perhaps that will ring a bell with someone else. > > -- > Chris Caudle > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com > -- Jeremy Nichols Sent from my iPad 6.

Well … no. Dividing 1 kHz by 10 does result in 100 Hz, but changing the division ratio to 6 gets you 166.666… (infinitely repeating decimal fraction) Hz. Examination of the prime factors is needed: The prime factors of 60 are 2, 3, and 5. The prime factors of 100,000 are 2 and 5. So you need to account for the 3 prime factor in 60. One way is to multiply the 100 kHz main standard frequency by 3, then divide the 300 kHz resulting signal by 5,000 in the manner you suggest to get 60 Hz. Multiplication by 3 is easy - you just distort the sine wave so it has lots of odd harmonics (such as using a diode rectifier) and send that through a 300 kHz resonant LC tank. The oldest piece of HP frequency related gear I ever owned was a HP 524B frequency counter with HP 525B frequency converter. I bought it around 1970 (when I was in high school) and used it for a few years. Wow — it was a huge heavy high wattage beast! If I remember correctly, the ovenized oscillator had drifted past the adjustment range and I used an external frequency reference for the counter. I don’t remember owning any vacuum tube equipment which ran a synchronous clock from a crystal oscillator, but I knew that such products existed. -- Bill Byrom N5BB On Tue, Mar 7, 2023, at 12:01 PM, Jeremy Nichols via time-nuts wrote: > Early HP (and other?) frequency standards generated frequency sub-multiples > using either regenerative or phantastron dividers. Regenerative dividers > are used primarily because they are NOT self starting. If anything > interrupts the circuit, the outputs stop, signaling the operator that the > clock is now in error. > > Phantastron divide-by-10 circuits work by summing pulses, the circuit being > constructed so that 10 pulses into the phantastron yields one pulse out. > The circuits typically contain adjustable elements allowing the operator to > ‘tune’ the circuit for 9, 10, or 11 pulses. It would be easy (he says!) to > modify such a circuit to sum 6 pulses instead of 10, before triggering an > output pulse. That would get you 60 Hz instead of 100 Hz, for example. > > > > On Tue, Mar 7, 2023 at 9:20 AM John Vendely via time-nuts < > time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote: > > > Hi Jeremy, > > > > Thanks for the reply. If nothing else, I'm curious to see how HP > > accomplished the 60 cycle output option. Though trivial today, > > synthesizing 60 cycles from the frequencies available in the 115BR > > wasn't so convenient back then, given the primarily analog and > > rudimentary digital methods available at the time... > > > > 73, > > > > John K9WT > > > > On 3/6/2023 7:24 PM, Jeremy Nichols via time-nuts wrote: > > > Sorry I can’t contribute here. My 113AR does not have a 60 Hz output > > > option, which could be convenient for running a standard clock. The > > outputs > > > of my 113AR are half a volt, approximately. A 60 mV output does sound on > > > the low side. > > > > > > Possibly tvb (Tom Van Baak) will see your message and respond. He has a > > 115 > > > and probably the manual too, although I don’t know if his 115 has the > > > option of a 60 Hz output. > > > > > > Jeremy > > > N6WFO > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 6, 2023 at 4:22 AM John Vendely via time-nuts < > > > time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote: > > > > > >> The HP 115BR clock was available with an optional 60 Hz output. The > > >> service manual mentions the option but provides no schematic. My 115BR > > >> has the 60 Hz output option (a front-panel placard reads "Specif. H08 > > >> 115R), and after running it for over 30 years, I'm finally getting > > >> around to using it to drive a synchronous motor clock via a small > > >> class-D power amp and step-up transformer. However, the 60 Hz output > > >> level is very low, around 60 mV p-p, and somewhat distorted. I doubt HP > > >> designed it that way. Before going to the trouble of > > >> reverse-engineering it, I thought I'd check to see if anyone has seen a > > >> schematic or other information on this option? > > >> > > >> Many Thanks, > > >> > > >> John > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > > >> To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > > To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com > > -- > Jeremy Nichols > Sent from my iPad 6. > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com

Hi If you have a motor that is running at 10 revs a second (600 RPM) and put a 5 slot disk on it. You get 50 Hz That motor runs just fine off of 10 Hz. Indeed it might run off 100 Hz or 1KHz, be much smaller, and have a 10:1 or 100:1 gear box. So now we cut one more slot in the disk. Each rev gets you 6 pulses instead of 5. Bob > On Mar 7, 2023, at 4:27 PM, Bill Byrom via time-nuts <time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote: > > Well … no. Dividing 1 kHz by 10 does result in 100 Hz, but changing the division ratio to 6 gets you 166.666… (infinitely repeating decimal fraction) Hz. > > Examination of the prime factors is needed: > The prime factors of 60 are 2, 3, and 5. > The prime factors of 100,000 are 2 and 5. > > So you need to account for the 3 prime factor in 60. One way is to multiply the 100 kHz main standard frequency by 3, then divide the 300 kHz resulting signal by 5,000 in the manner you suggest to get 60 Hz. Multiplication by 3 is easy - you just distort the sine wave so it has lots of odd harmonics (such as using a diode rectifier) and send that through a 300 kHz resonant LC tank. > > The oldest piece of HP frequency related gear I ever owned was a HP 524B frequency counter with HP 525B frequency converter. I bought it around 1970 (when I was in high school) and used it for a few years. Wow — it was a huge heavy high wattage beast! If I remember correctly, the ovenized oscillator had drifted past the adjustment range and I used an external frequency reference for the counter. I don’t remember owning any vacuum tube equipment which ran a synchronous clock from a crystal oscillator, but I knew that such products existed. > -- > Bill Byrom N5BB > > > On Tue, Mar 7, 2023, at 12:01 PM, Jeremy Nichols via time-nuts wrote: >> Early HP (and other?) frequency standards generated frequency sub-multiples >> using either regenerative or phantastron dividers. Regenerative dividers >> are used primarily because they are NOT self starting. If anything >> interrupts the circuit, the outputs stop, signaling the operator that the >> clock is now in error. >> >> Phantastron divide-by-10 circuits work by summing pulses, the circuit being >> constructed so that 10 pulses into the phantastron yields one pulse out. >> The circuits typically contain adjustable elements allowing the operator to >> ‘tune’ the circuit for 9, 10, or 11 pulses. It would be easy (he says!) to >> modify such a circuit to sum 6 pulses instead of 10, before triggering an >> output pulse. That would get you 60 Hz instead of 100 Hz, for example. >> >> >> >> On Tue, Mar 7, 2023 at 9:20 AM John Vendely via time-nuts < >> time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote: >> >>> Hi Jeremy, >>> >>> Thanks for the reply. If nothing else, I'm curious to see how HP >>> accomplished the 60 cycle output option. Though trivial today, >>> synthesizing 60 cycles from the frequencies available in the 115BR >>> wasn't so convenient back then, given the primarily analog and >>> rudimentary digital methods available at the time... >>> >>> 73, >>> >>> John K9WT >>> >>> On 3/6/2023 7:24 PM, Jeremy Nichols via time-nuts wrote: >>>> Sorry I can’t contribute here. My 113AR does not have a 60 Hz output >>>> option, which could be convenient for running a standard clock. The >>> outputs >>>> of my 113AR are half a volt, approximately. A 60 mV output does sound on >>>> the low side. >>>> >>>> Possibly tvb (Tom Van Baak) will see your message and respond. He has a >>> 115 >>>> and probably the manual too, although I don’t know if his 115 has the >>>> option of a 60 Hz output. >>>> >>>> Jeremy >>>> N6WFO >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Mar 6, 2023 at 4:22 AM John Vendely via time-nuts < >>>> time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> The HP 115BR clock was available with an optional 60 Hz output. The >>>>> service manual mentions the option but provides no schematic. My 115BR >>>>> has the 60 Hz output option (a front-panel placard reads "Specif. H08 >>>>> 115R), and after running it for over 30 years, I'm finally getting >>>>> around to using it to drive a synchronous motor clock via a small >>>>> class-D power amp and step-up transformer. However, the 60 Hz output >>>>> level is very low, around 60 mV p-p, and somewhat distorted. I doubt HP >>>>> designed it that way. Before going to the trouble of >>>>> reverse-engineering it, I thought I'd check to see if anyone has seen a >>>>> schematic or other information on this option? >>>>> >>>>> Many Thanks, >>>>> >>>>> John >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >>> To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com >> >> -- >> Jeremy Nichols >> Sent from my iPad 6. >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com >> To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com

Hi Chris, You're definitely on to something here, something I completely failed to notice--that second photocell, V102, which is "NC" in the standard product, but clearly used in the 60 cps output option, according to the parts list!   In the 115BR days, some form of triggered divider would be have been necessary to to provide the large division ratio needed to get down to 60 cps. And, as it happens, the 1 kc is derived from a regenerative divider, which naturally includes a frequency tripler providing 3 kc as part of its conversion scheme.  Buffer the 3 kc output from the 1 kc regen. divider and use the second photocell in conjunction with a spinning aperture disc to generate an optical gate (as was done to generate the 1PPS) to select every 50th pulse of 3 kc .   Something along these lines, anyway. I shall look more closely at the 115BR mechanics and electronics, and peruse the parts lists and see if I can ferret out the details. Many thanks for everyone's interesting suggestions... 73, John K9WT On 3/7/2023 1:48 PM, Chris Caudle via time-nuts wrote: > On Tue, March 7, 2023 10:29 am, John Vendely via time-nuts wrote: >> If nothing else, I'm curious to see how HP >> accomplished the 60 cycle output option. > That would be interesting. > The service manual is available at ko4bb.com and has a note that the aux > output is 0.25V RMS minimum (so 0.06V is definitely below spec), and the > parts list has V102 as a photocell used for the 60 cps option only. > > I am not familiar with any divider circuit which uses a photocell, but > perhaps that will ring a bell with someone else. >

Very clever. Not that I have the 113 or 115. But I have actually seen them. The conversation did get me to download the manual from the KO4BB site. Was looking at it and scratching my head. Simply did not have time to read the details Bob. Thanks Paul WB8TSL On Tue, Mar 7, 2023 at 6:09 PM Bob Camp via time-nuts < time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote: > Hi > > If you have a motor that is running at 10 revs a second (600 RPM) and put > a 5 slot disk on it. You get 50 Hz > > That motor runs just fine off of 10 Hz. Indeed it might run off 100 Hz or > 1KHz, be much smaller, and have a > 10:1 or 100:1 gear box. > > So now we cut one more slot in the disk. Each rev gets you 6 pulses > instead of 5. > > Bob > > > On Mar 7, 2023, at 4:27 PM, Bill Byrom via time-nuts < > time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote: > > > > Well … no. Dividing 1 kHz by 10 does result in 100 Hz, but changing the > division ratio to 6 gets you 166.666… (infinitely repeating decimal > fraction) Hz. > > > > Examination of the prime factors is needed: > > The prime factors of 60 are 2, 3, and 5. > > The prime factors of 100,000 are 2 and 5. > > > > So you need to account for the 3 prime factor in 60. One way is to > multiply the 100 kHz main standard frequency by 3, then divide the 300 kHz > resulting signal by 5,000 in the manner you suggest to get 60 Hz. > Multiplication by 3 is easy - you just distort the sine wave so it has lots > of odd harmonics (such as using a diode rectifier) and send that through a > 300 kHz resonant LC tank. > > > > The oldest piece of HP frequency related gear I ever owned was a HP 524B > frequency counter with HP 525B frequency converter. I bought it around 1970 > (when I was in high school) and used it for a few years. Wow — it was a > huge heavy high wattage beast! If I remember correctly, the ovenized > oscillator had drifted past the adjustment range and I used an external > frequency reference for the counter. I don’t remember owning any vacuum > tube equipment which ran a synchronous clock from a crystal oscillator, but > I knew that such products existed. > > -- > > Bill Byrom N5BB > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 7, 2023, at 12:01 PM, Jeremy Nichols via time-nuts wrote: > >> Early HP (and other?) frequency standards generated frequency > sub-multiples > >> using either regenerative or phantastron dividers. Regenerative dividers > >> are used primarily because they are NOT self starting. If anything > >> interrupts the circuit, the outputs stop, signaling the operator that > the > >> clock is now in error. > >> > >> Phantastron divide-by-10 circuits work by summing pulses, the circuit > being > >> constructed so that 10 pulses into the phantastron yields one pulse out. > >> The circuits typically contain adjustable elements allowing the > operator to > >> ‘tune’ the circuit for 9, 10, or 11 pulses. It would be easy (he says!) > to > >> modify such a circuit to sum 6 pulses instead of 10, before triggering > an > >> output pulse. That would get you 60 Hz instead of 100 Hz, for example. > >> > >> > >> > >> On Tue, Mar 7, 2023 at 9:20 AM John Vendely via time-nuts < > >> time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote: > >> > >>> Hi Jeremy, > >>> > >>> Thanks for the reply. If nothing else, I'm curious to see how HP > >>> accomplished the 60 cycle output option. Though trivial today, > >>> synthesizing 60 cycles from the frequencies available in the 115BR > >>> wasn't so convenient back then, given the primarily analog and > >>> rudimentary digital methods available at the time... > >>> > >>> 73, > >>> > >>> John K9WT > >>> > >>> On 3/6/2023 7:24 PM, Jeremy Nichols via time-nuts wrote: > >>>> Sorry I can’t contribute here. My 113AR does not have a 60 Hz output > >>>> option, which could be convenient for running a standard clock. The > >>> outputs > >>>> of my 113AR are half a volt, approximately. A 60 mV output does sound > on > >>>> the low side. > >>>> > >>>> Possibly tvb (Tom Van Baak) will see your message and respond. He has > a > >>> 115 > >>>> and probably the manual too, although I don’t know if his 115 has the > >>>> option of a 60 Hz output. > >>>> > >>>> Jeremy > >>>> N6WFO > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Mon, Mar 6, 2023 at 4:22 AM John Vendely via time-nuts < > >>>> time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> The HP 115BR clock was available with an optional 60 Hz output. The > >>>>> service manual mentions the option but provides no schematic. My > 115BR > >>>>> has the 60 Hz output option (a front-panel placard reads "Specif. H08 > >>>>> 115R), and after running it for over 30 years, I'm finally getting > >>>>> around to using it to drive a synchronous motor clock via a small > >>>>> class-D power amp and step-up transformer. However, the 60 Hz output > >>>>> level is very low, around 60 mV p-p, and somewhat distorted. I > doubt HP > >>>>> designed it that way. Before going to the trouble of > >>>>> reverse-engineering it, I thought I'd check to see if anyone has > seen a > >>>>> schematic or other information on this option? > >>>>> > >>>>> Many Thanks, > >>>>> > >>>>> John > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > >>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > >>> To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com > >> > >> -- > >> Jeremy Nichols > >> Sent from my iPad 6. > >> _______________________________________________ > >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > >> To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > > To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com