EB
ed breya
Tue, Jun 7, 2022 8:22 PM
Continuing with experiments and spur measurements, I found that closing
the lid on the little filter box does seem to reduce the LPF's
effectiveness at the higher frequencies, but leaving it open reduces
effectiveness at the lower. I can sculpt it to a taller structure if
necessary, which would give more clearance to the choke, and allow for
some microwave absorbing material. Yes Askild, I did manage to squeeze a
little strip into the existing can, but only near the output end -
there's no room above the parts, especially the choke, so pinching
anything there would likely spoil the whole thing. For now, I have the
lid closed, and the absorber strip at the output area. The hinge of
course has already broken, but I just tack some solder gobs over it as
needed.
What I discovered next, however, may mean I won't have to improve this
box anyway. Doing a spur review, I found that the remaining significant
ones were the 70 MHz, and all but one of the ones between 1260 and 1820
MHz. Above and below, everything else was in the noise floor. I had
gradually worked the 70 MHz down some with shielding and such, but a
little remained even all closed up.
I started thinking again about possible resonance of the cable from the
mixer to the LPF. The length is in the right ballpark to aggravate the
problem spur range. The only reason for the length was to get the
desired three turns on the CM choke, so one option was to give up most
of the choke value and go one turn, with a short, straight connect to
the LPF, which would force any resonances way upward (but maybe they'd
just show up elsewhere, if there's not enough loss at the higher
frequencies). The other option was to revisit padding the input of the
FPF, or the diplexer again.
After thinking back over previous experiments with these, I recalled
that I was really only looking for noise flatness then, and hadn't even
gotten to detailed spur measurements. I also recalled that the original
diplexer setup did interact some at the top of the noise band - I chose
a 5th order 50 MHz .05 dB Chebyshev response, but the real parts made it
something a little different. I realize now that I should have just
disconnected it and left it in place - unfortunately, I took it all out
during my last cleanup and consolidation round.
So, not wanting to change too much around, and only guessing about the
cable situation, I figured on trying something simple and quick to
diplex out the upper stuff, to suppress possible resonances. I chose
somewhat arbitrarily a 3rd order Chebyshev around 140 MHz, which is
where the upper image lies, and the choke is about 50 nH, and I just
happened to have another of the same part I had measured around this
value and used in the 300 MHz LPF. So, in went a 22 pF/50 nH/22 pF/51 R
HPF, and out went the reflections. All the bad spurs are in the noise
floor in a broadband view, but can still be found with narrow band spot
checks, around -95 to -100 dBm. The net reduction from previous "feels"
like maybe 6 dB, which I think corresponds with cutting VSWR in half.
Interestingly, the 70 MHz is now virtually gone too.
So, it looks like my first instinct to have a diplexer was right, but I
didn't study it deeply enough, and my assumption about its effect on the
spurs being small was wrong. Now that I can see some results, I can set
the HPF a little lower to at least terminate the entire upper image
(about 115-165 MHz), but not so low that it interferes the LPF response.
Another interesting thing is although the upper image is the second
biggest after the desired output signal, it has never shown above the
noise floor since I installed my new LPF to replace the commercial one.
Ed
Continuing with experiments and spur measurements, I found that closing
the lid on the little filter box does seem to reduce the LPF's
effectiveness at the higher frequencies, but leaving it open reduces
effectiveness at the lower. I can sculpt it to a taller structure if
necessary, which would give more clearance to the choke, and allow for
some microwave absorbing material. Yes Askild, I did manage to squeeze a
little strip into the existing can, but only near the output end -
there's no room above the parts, especially the choke, so pinching
anything there would likely spoil the whole thing. For now, I have the
lid closed, and the absorber strip at the output area. The hinge of
course has already broken, but I just tack some solder gobs over it as
needed.
What I discovered next, however, may mean I won't have to improve this
box anyway. Doing a spur review, I found that the remaining significant
ones were the 70 MHz, and all but one of the ones between 1260 and 1820
MHz. Above and below, everything else was in the noise floor. I had
gradually worked the 70 MHz down some with shielding and such, but a
little remained even all closed up.
I started thinking again about possible resonance of the cable from the
mixer to the LPF. The length is in the right ballpark to aggravate the
problem spur range. The only reason for the length was to get the
desired three turns on the CM choke, so one option was to give up most
of the choke value and go one turn, with a short, straight connect to
the LPF, which would force any resonances way upward (but maybe they'd
just show up elsewhere, if there's not enough loss at the higher
frequencies). The other option was to revisit padding the input of the
FPF, or the diplexer again.
After thinking back over previous experiments with these, I recalled
that I was really only looking for noise flatness then, and hadn't even
gotten to detailed spur measurements. I also recalled that the original
diplexer setup did interact some at the top of the noise band - I chose
a 5th order 50 MHz .05 dB Chebyshev response, but the real parts made it
something a little different. I realize now that I should have just
disconnected it and left it in place - unfortunately, I took it all out
during my last cleanup and consolidation round.
So, not wanting to change too much around, and only guessing about the
cable situation, I figured on trying something simple and quick to
diplex out the upper stuff, to suppress possible resonances. I chose
somewhat arbitrarily a 3rd order Chebyshev around 140 MHz, which is
where the upper image lies, and the choke is about 50 nH, and I just
happened to have another of the same part I had measured around this
value and used in the 300 MHz LPF. So, in went a 22 pF/50 nH/22 pF/51 R
HPF, and out went the reflections. All the bad spurs are in the noise
floor in a broadband view, but can still be found with narrow band spot
checks, around -95 to -100 dBm. The net reduction from previous "feels"
like maybe 6 dB, which I think corresponds with cutting VSWR in half.
Interestingly, the 70 MHz is now virtually gone too.
So, it looks like my first instinct to have a diplexer was right, but I
didn't study it deeply enough, and my assumption about its effect on the
spurs being small was wrong. Now that I can see some results, I can set
the HPF a little lower to at least terminate the entire upper image
(about 115-165 MHz), but not so low that it interferes the LPF response.
Another interesting thing is although the upper image is the second
biggest after the desired output signal, it has never shown above the
noise floor since I installed my new LPF to replace the commercial one.
Ed
EB
ed breya
Thu, Jun 9, 2022 11:43 PM
Yes, that transformer sure looks burned out. It's hard to tell how big
it is from the pictures, but my impression is that it looks kind of
skimpy to run a FRK Rb plus whatever else is going on like a GPS RX and
uP system, and maybe battery charging too. You can easily estimate the
VA rating by measuring the dimensions and comparing to standard
transformer frame sizes. Generally, the VA rating should be at least
twice the total raw (not the regulated output values) DC power produced,
with conventional rectification and filtering. This can be exceeded for
a while, say during warmup of the Rb, as long as it goes back to normal
in a reasonable amount of time. It's mostly about temperature rise - if
you have good cooling, you can get more out of it.
Transformers are pretty tough, so having one burn out in normal service
calls for some investigation of why it happened, before you risk taking
out a replacement too.
Regardless of the VA rating that should be used, you're probably stuck
with using the same size and style as the original, just to fit it
mechanically. If it's plenty big enough VA-wise, then all's well. If
it's marginal, you can at least add enhanced protection to avoid another
burnout.
Regarding DC supply voltages, the main one will be something around 24 V
for the Rb. I would guess that the DC-DC converter on the supply board
makes +5 V (or 3.3 or whatever) for the brain and GPS RX, and the 78M12
makes +12 V for the analog, and that there are no negative supplies -
unless there's more to the supply system that's not shown. Since
external 24 VDC can supposedly run the whole thing, I don't think you'd
have to worry about making any of the voltages from the AC transformer
except for the 24 V, even though it appears to have a multi-tapped
winding. I didn't see anything in the OP about whether the thing works
with just external DC, so this should be confirmed.
There's a lot more circuitry on the board than seems necessary just for
power, so it may be worthwhile to reverse engineer it a bit - especially
the four big transistors and U3 and U4, which looks like two identical
functions of some sort. Maybe extra voltage regulation, or maybe 1 PPS
amplifiers?
Once you do figure everything out and get a fresh transformer, note that
the original is banded to reduce magnetic emission. It appears to have
both the copper strip around the bobbin zone, and the steel (or
sometimes mu-metal) band around the core, but not the third thing
commonly done, which is insulating the core mounting. It will function
without these, but may interfere with the Rb unit, especially if it's
nearby. You won't find these features in run of the mill OEM replacement
transformers, so you'd have to specify them, or add them yourself. If
you get a transformer with same dimensions as original, you can
transplant these pieces from the old one.
Ed
Yes, that transformer sure looks burned out. It's hard to tell how big
it is from the pictures, but my impression is that it looks kind of
skimpy to run a FRK Rb plus whatever else is going on like a GPS RX and
uP system, and maybe battery charging too. You can easily estimate the
VA rating by measuring the dimensions and comparing to standard
transformer frame sizes. Generally, the VA rating should be at least
twice the total raw (not the regulated output values) DC power produced,
with conventional rectification and filtering. This can be exceeded for
a while, say during warmup of the Rb, as long as it goes back to normal
in a reasonable amount of time. It's mostly about temperature rise - if
you have good cooling, you can get more out of it.
Transformers are pretty tough, so having one burn out in normal service
calls for some investigation of why it happened, before you risk taking
out a replacement too.
Regardless of the VA rating that should be used, you're probably stuck
with using the same size and style as the original, just to fit it
mechanically. If it's plenty big enough VA-wise, then all's well. If
it's marginal, you can at least add enhanced protection to avoid another
burnout.
Regarding DC supply voltages, the main one will be something around 24 V
for the Rb. I would guess that the DC-DC converter on the supply board
makes +5 V (or 3.3 or whatever) for the brain and GPS RX, and the 78M12
makes +12 V for the analog, and that there are no negative supplies -
unless there's more to the supply system that's not shown. Since
external 24 VDC can supposedly run the whole thing, I don't think you'd
have to worry about making any of the voltages from the AC transformer
except for the 24 V, even though it appears to have a multi-tapped
winding. I didn't see anything in the OP about whether the thing works
with just external DC, so this should be confirmed.
There's a lot more circuitry on the board than seems necessary just for
power, so it may be worthwhile to reverse engineer it a bit - especially
the four big transistors and U3 and U4, which looks like two identical
functions of some sort. Maybe extra voltage regulation, or maybe 1 PPS
amplifiers?
Once you do figure everything out and get a fresh transformer, note that
the original is banded to reduce magnetic emission. It appears to have
both the copper strip around the bobbin zone, and the steel (or
sometimes mu-metal) band around the core, but not the third thing
commonly done, which is insulating the core mounting. It will function
without these, but may interfere with the Rb unit, especially if it's
nearby. You won't find these features in run of the mill OEM replacement
transformers, so you'd have to specify them, or add them yourself. If
you get a transformer with same dimensions as original, you can
transplant these pieces from the old one.
Ed
WB
Wilko Bulte
Fri, Jun 10, 2022 11:50 AM
The attached PDF shows which voltages are used in a desktop variant.
20.5VDC is noted here. And a separate heater supply.
Hope this is of use to the OP.
Wilko
On 10 Jun 2022, at 01:49, ed breya via time-nuts time-nuts@lists.febo.com wrote:
Yes, that transformer sure looks burned out. It's hard to tell how big it is from the pictures, but my impression is that it looks kind of skimpy to run a FRK Rb plus whatever else is going on like a GPS RX and uP system, and maybe battery charging too. You can easily estimate the VA rating by measuring the dimensions and comparing to standard transformer frame sizes. Generally, the VA rating should be at least twice the total raw (not the regulated output values) DC power produced, with conventional rectification and filtering. This can be exceeded for a while, say during warmup of the Rb, as long as it goes back to normal in a reasonable amount of time. It's mostly about temperature rise - if you have good cooling, you can get more out of it.
Transformers are pretty tough, so having one burn out in normal service calls for some investigation of why it happened, before you risk taking out a replacement too.
Regardless of the VA rating that should be used, you're probably stuck with using the same size and style as the original, just to fit it mechanically. If it's plenty big enough VA-wise, then all's well. If it's marginal, you can at least add enhanced protection to avoid another burnout.
Regarding DC supply voltages, the main one will be something around 24 V for the Rb. I would guess that the DC-DC converter on the supply board makes +5 V (or 3.3 or whatever) for the brain and GPS RX, and the 78M12 makes +12 V for the analog, and that there are no negative supplies - unless there's more to the supply system that's not shown. Since external 24 VDC can supposedly run the whole thing, I don't think you'd have to worry about making any of the voltages from the AC transformer except for the 24 V, even though it appears to have a multi-tapped winding. I didn't see anything in the OP about whether the thing works with just external DC, so this should be confirmed.
There's a lot more circuitry on the board than seems necessary just for power, so it may be worthwhile to reverse engineer it a bit - especially the four big transistors and U3 and U4, which looks like two identical functions of some sort. Maybe extra voltage regulation, or maybe 1 PPS amplifiers?
Once you do figure everything out and get a fresh transformer, note that the original is banded to reduce magnetic emission. It appears to have both the copper strip around the bobbin zone, and the steel (or sometimes mu-metal) band around the core, but not the third thing commonly done, which is insulating the core mounting. It will function without these, but may interfere with the Rb unit, especially if it's nearby. You won't find these features in run of the mill OEM replacement transformers, so you'd have to specify them, or add them yourself. If you get a transformer with same dimensions as original, you can transplant these pieces from the old one.
Ed
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
The attached PDF shows which voltages are used in a desktop variant.
20.5VDC is noted here. And a separate heater supply.
Hope this is of use to the OP.
Wilko
> On 10 Jun 2022, at 01:49, ed breya via time-nuts <time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
>
> Yes, that transformer sure looks burned out. It's hard to tell how big it is from the pictures, but my impression is that it looks kind of skimpy to run a FRK Rb plus whatever else is going on like a GPS RX and uP system, and maybe battery charging too. You can easily estimate the VA rating by measuring the dimensions and comparing to standard transformer frame sizes. Generally, the VA rating should be at least twice the total raw (not the regulated output values) DC power produced, with conventional rectification and filtering. This can be exceeded for a while, say during warmup of the Rb, as long as it goes back to normal in a reasonable amount of time. It's mostly about temperature rise - if you have good cooling, you can get more out of it.
>
> Transformers are pretty tough, so having one burn out in normal service calls for some investigation of why it happened, before you risk taking out a replacement too.
>
> Regardless of the VA rating that should be used, you're probably stuck with using the same size and style as the original, just to fit it mechanically. If it's plenty big enough VA-wise, then all's well. If it's marginal, you can at least add enhanced protection to avoid another burnout.
>
> Regarding DC supply voltages, the main one will be something around 24 V for the Rb. I would guess that the DC-DC converter on the supply board makes +5 V (or 3.3 or whatever) for the brain and GPS RX, and the 78M12 makes +12 V for the analog, and that there are no negative supplies - unless there's more to the supply system that's not shown. Since external 24 VDC can supposedly run the whole thing, I don't think you'd have to worry about making any of the voltages from the AC transformer except for the 24 V, even though it appears to have a multi-tapped winding. I didn't see anything in the OP about whether the thing works with just external DC, so this should be confirmed.
>
> There's a lot more circuitry on the board than seems necessary just for power, so it may be worthwhile to reverse engineer it a bit - especially the four big transistors and U3 and U4, which looks like two identical functions of some sort. Maybe extra voltage regulation, or maybe 1 PPS amplifiers?
>
> Once you do figure everything out and get a fresh transformer, note that the original is banded to reduce magnetic emission. It appears to have both the copper strip around the bobbin zone, and the steel (or sometimes mu-metal) band around the core, but not the third thing commonly done, which is insulating the core mounting. It will function without these, but may interfere with the Rb unit, especially if it's nearby. You won't find these features in run of the mill OEM replacement transformers, so you'd have to specify them, or add them yourself. If you get a transformer with same dimensions as original, you can transplant these pieces from the old one.
>
> Ed
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
EB
ed breya
Tue, Jul 5, 2022 9:48 PM
This may give some idea of how fast things can happen when the OCXO is
subject to drafts. I have this dual GPSDO box that usually is open for
experimenting, and have a setup comparing one of the 10 MHz outs to my
portable Rb reference. The 10 GHz multiplied output from the Rb is
indicated on a microwave counter, using the GPSDO as reference. This
gives 1 mHz resolution on the 10 Mhz signals at the 1 Hz counter
resolution limit. It normally reads 10 GHz "exact" +/- 1 Hz when things
are stable, or up to maybe up to 2 Hz when garage ambient is changing. I
just turn the counter on whenever I'm in the mood to take a look.
The upper GPSDO board is exposed, so I can just put a finger on the case
of the small (about 1" x 1.5") OCXO for a few seconds. Almost
immediately, the counter shows several Hz change, which gradually
recovers, with some over- and under-shoot. During all this, the OCXO is
changing, and the GPSDO is trying to fix it.
Having a bigger OCXO with more thermal mass and insulation, and having
more protection from fast ambient changes can help a lot. As others have
said, you don't want to overdo it - the oven heating system must be kept
working under all conditions, but it's OK to make it not have to work
too hard.
An extreme example of a bad thermal situation is in the beloved HP8566.
I have often lamented about the poor placement of its internal OCXO,
which is right in the main air plenum that feeds the fan cooling air to
the whole instrument. The OCXO is subject immediately to any change in
ambient, and its heater has to work very hard. I'm convinced that this
is the cause of most OCXO failures in the 8566. I've had to refurbish a
number of these. The typical failure I've encountered is that the foam
insulation deteriorates from the high heat flux needed, and the
chemicals from the foam cause the oven setpoint adjustment pot wiper
contact to fail. An easy way to spot this problem is to gently shake the
OCXO - if you can hear and feel the guts clunking around inside, then
it's due for repair.
At an opposite extreme, in my "Z3801A in a HP5065A carcass" project, I
substantially isolate the OCXO from ambient. It's already a double-oven
style, and I further enclosed it in a mu-metal box (made from a CRT
shield). The OCXO is suspended on rubber vibration mounts, inside the
box, and has a thin (~1/4") layer of non-woven fiber insulation on all
sides between it and the box. The insulation has very little R-value,
but suppresses turbulence and convection flow inside. The Z3801A guts
are arranged specially to fit and occupy about two thirds of the cabinet
volume, and this section is largely sealed off from the outside and from
the right side battery compartment. A small fan runs at very low speed
to gently circulate the air inside the compartment, and the plentiful
amount of cabinet skin easily dissipates the total power. The same type
of insulation is also placed under and atop the main board in the
DAC/EFC circuit area, to slow down thermal changes there. The EFC's SMB
connector set will also be shrouded with an insulating tube, to reduce
thermal voltage. I even changed the nearest board mounting post to
plastic, to reduce effects of thermal conduction and ground current in
the vicinity.
All of this does not protect from ambient, but only the rate of change.
It's more or less a constant temperature rise type deal, assuming
constant power dissipation when everything's stable - and not too much
wind or draftiness on the whole cabinet.
Ed
This may give some idea of how fast things can happen when the OCXO is
subject to drafts. I have this dual GPSDO box that usually is open for
experimenting, and have a setup comparing one of the 10 MHz outs to my
portable Rb reference. The 10 GHz multiplied output from the Rb is
indicated on a microwave counter, using the GPSDO as reference. This
gives 1 mHz resolution on the 10 Mhz signals at the 1 Hz counter
resolution limit. It normally reads 10 GHz "exact" +/- 1 Hz when things
are stable, or up to maybe up to 2 Hz when garage ambient is changing. I
just turn the counter on whenever I'm in the mood to take a look.
The upper GPSDO board is exposed, so I can just put a finger on the case
of the small (about 1" x 1.5") OCXO for a few seconds. Almost
immediately, the counter shows several Hz change, which gradually
recovers, with some over- and under-shoot. During all this, the OCXO is
changing, and the GPSDO is trying to fix it.
Having a bigger OCXO with more thermal mass and insulation, and having
more protection from fast ambient changes can help a lot. As others have
said, you don't want to overdo it - the oven heating system must be kept
working under all conditions, but it's OK to make it not have to work
too hard.
An extreme example of a bad thermal situation is in the beloved HP8566.
I have often lamented about the poor placement of its internal OCXO,
which is right in the main air plenum that feeds the fan cooling air to
the whole instrument. The OCXO is subject immediately to any change in
ambient, and its heater has to work very hard. I'm convinced that this
is the cause of most OCXO failures in the 8566. I've had to refurbish a
number of these. The typical failure I've encountered is that the foam
insulation deteriorates from the high heat flux needed, and the
chemicals from the foam cause the oven setpoint adjustment pot wiper
contact to fail. An easy way to spot this problem is to gently shake the
OCXO - if you can hear and feel the guts clunking around inside, then
it's due for repair.
At an opposite extreme, in my "Z3801A in a HP5065A carcass" project, I
substantially isolate the OCXO from ambient. It's already a double-oven
style, and I further enclosed it in a mu-metal box (made from a CRT
shield). The OCXO is suspended on rubber vibration mounts, inside the
box, and has a thin (~1/4") layer of non-woven fiber insulation on all
sides between it and the box. The insulation has very little R-value,
but suppresses turbulence and convection flow inside. The Z3801A guts
are arranged specially to fit and occupy about two thirds of the cabinet
volume, and this section is largely sealed off from the outside and from
the right side battery compartment. A small fan runs at very low speed
to gently circulate the air inside the compartment, and the plentiful
amount of cabinet skin easily dissipates the total power. The same type
of insulation is also placed under and atop the main board in the
DAC/EFC circuit area, to slow down thermal changes there. The EFC's SMB
connector set will also be shrouded with an insulating tube, to reduce
thermal voltage. I even changed the nearest board mounting post to
plastic, to reduce effects of thermal conduction and ground current in
the vicinity.
All of this does not protect from ambient, but only the rate of change.
It's more or less a constant temperature rise type deal, assuming
constant power dissipation when everything's stable - and not too much
wind or draftiness on the whole cabinet.
Ed
BK
Bob kb8tq
Tue, Jul 5, 2022 10:57 PM
Hi
Unless you measure the change of the device over a controlled temperature
range ( like 0 to 70C ) at a controlled rate ( like < 0.1C / minute ) it’s hard to
know if this or that restriction / insulation on an OCXO has “upset” its temperature
compensation. If you “make the heater work half as hard” you may have doubled
the thermal gain. That’s big change …..
Bob
On Jul 5, 2022, at 1:48 PM, ed breya via time-nuts time-nuts@lists.febo.com wrote:
This may give some idea of how fast things can happen when the OCXO is subject to drafts. I have this dual GPSDO box that usually is open for experimenting, and have a setup comparing one of the 10 MHz outs to my portable Rb reference. The 10 GHz multiplied output from the Rb is indicated on a microwave counter, using the GPSDO as reference. This gives 1 mHz resolution on the 10 Mhz signals at the 1 Hz counter resolution limit. It normally reads 10 GHz "exact" +/- 1 Hz when things are stable, or up to maybe up to 2 Hz when garage ambient is changing. I just turn the counter on whenever I'm in the mood to take a look.
The upper GPSDO board is exposed, so I can just put a finger on the case of the small (about 1" x 1.5") OCXO for a few seconds. Almost immediately, the counter shows several Hz change, which gradually recovers, with some over- and under-shoot. During all this, the OCXO is changing, and the GPSDO is trying to fix it.
Having a bigger OCXO with more thermal mass and insulation, and having more protection from fast ambient changes can help a lot. As others have said, you don't want to overdo it - the oven heating system must be kept working under all conditions, but it's OK to make it not have to work too hard.
An extreme example of a bad thermal situation is in the beloved HP8566. I have often lamented about the poor placement of its internal OCXO, which is right in the main air plenum that feeds the fan cooling air to the whole instrument. The OCXO is subject immediately to any change in ambient, and its heater has to work very hard. I'm convinced that this is the cause of most OCXO failures in the 8566. I've had to refurbish a number of these. The typical failure I've encountered is that the foam insulation deteriorates from the high heat flux needed, and the chemicals from the foam cause the oven setpoint adjustment pot wiper contact to fail. An easy way to spot this problem is to gently shake the OCXO - if you can hear and feel the guts clunking around inside, then it's due for repair.
At an opposite extreme, in my "Z3801A in a HP5065A carcass" project, I substantially isolate the OCXO from ambient. It's already a double-oven style, and I further enclosed it in a mu-metal box (made from a CRT shield). The OCXO is suspended on rubber vibration mounts, inside the box, and has a thin (~1/4") layer of non-woven fiber insulation on all sides between it and the box. The insulation has very little R-value, but suppresses turbulence and convection flow inside. The Z3801A guts are arranged specially to fit and occupy about two thirds of the cabinet volume, and this section is largely sealed off from the outside and from the right side battery compartment. A small fan runs at very low speed to gently circulate the air inside the compartment, and the plentiful amount of cabinet skin easily dissipates the total power. The same type of insulation is also placed under and atop the main board in the DAC/EFC circuit area, to slow down thermal changes there. The EFC's SMB connector set will also be shrouded with an insulating tube, to reduce thermal voltage. I even changed the nearest board mounting post to plastic, to reduce effects of thermal conduction and ground current in the vicinity.
All of this does not protect from ambient, but only the rate of change. It's more or less a constant temperature rise type deal, assuming constant power dissipation when everything's stable - and not too much wind or draftiness on the whole cabinet.
Ed
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
Hi
Unless you measure the change of the device over a controlled temperature
range ( like 0 to 70C ) at a controlled rate ( like < 0.1C / minute ) it’s hard to
know if this or that restriction / insulation on an OCXO has “upset” its temperature
compensation. If you “make the heater work half as hard” you may have doubled
the thermal gain. That’s big change …..
Bob
> On Jul 5, 2022, at 1:48 PM, ed breya via time-nuts <time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
>
> This may give some idea of how fast things can happen when the OCXO is subject to drafts. I have this dual GPSDO box that usually is open for experimenting, and have a setup comparing one of the 10 MHz outs to my portable Rb reference. The 10 GHz multiplied output from the Rb is indicated on a microwave counter, using the GPSDO as reference. This gives 1 mHz resolution on the 10 Mhz signals at the 1 Hz counter resolution limit. It normally reads 10 GHz "exact" +/- 1 Hz when things are stable, or up to maybe up to 2 Hz when garage ambient is changing. I just turn the counter on whenever I'm in the mood to take a look.
>
> The upper GPSDO board is exposed, so I can just put a finger on the case of the small (about 1" x 1.5") OCXO for a few seconds. Almost immediately, the counter shows several Hz change, which gradually recovers, with some over- and under-shoot. During all this, the OCXO is changing, and the GPSDO is trying to fix it.
>
> Having a bigger OCXO with more thermal mass and insulation, and having more protection from fast ambient changes can help a lot. As others have said, you don't want to overdo it - the oven heating system must be kept working under all conditions, but it's OK to make it not have to work too hard.
>
> An extreme example of a bad thermal situation is in the beloved HP8566. I have often lamented about the poor placement of its internal OCXO, which is right in the main air plenum that feeds the fan cooling air to the whole instrument. The OCXO is subject immediately to any change in ambient, and its heater has to work very hard. I'm convinced that this is the cause of most OCXO failures in the 8566. I've had to refurbish a number of these. The typical failure I've encountered is that the foam insulation deteriorates from the high heat flux needed, and the chemicals from the foam cause the oven setpoint adjustment pot wiper contact to fail. An easy way to spot this problem is to gently shake the OCXO - if you can hear and feel the guts clunking around inside, then it's due for repair.
>
> At an opposite extreme, in my "Z3801A in a HP5065A carcass" project, I substantially isolate the OCXO from ambient. It's already a double-oven style, and I further enclosed it in a mu-metal box (made from a CRT shield). The OCXO is suspended on rubber vibration mounts, inside the box, and has a thin (~1/4") layer of non-woven fiber insulation on all sides between it and the box. The insulation has very little R-value, but suppresses turbulence and convection flow inside. The Z3801A guts are arranged specially to fit and occupy about two thirds of the cabinet volume, and this section is largely sealed off from the outside and from the right side battery compartment. A small fan runs at very low speed to gently circulate the air inside the compartment, and the plentiful amount of cabinet skin easily dissipates the total power. The same type of insulation is also placed under and atop the main board in the DAC/EFC circuit area, to slow down thermal changes there. The EFC's SMB connector set will also be shrouded with an insulating tube, to reduce thermal voltage. I even changed the nearest board mounting post to plastic, to reduce effects of thermal conduction and ground current in the vicinity.
>
> All of this does not protect from ambient, but only the rate of change. It's more or less a constant temperature rise type deal, assuming constant power dissipation when everything's stable - and not too much wind or draftiness on the whole cabinet.
>
> Ed
>
>
>
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> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
EB
ed breya
Tue, Jul 12, 2022 9:09 PM
Erik, I'd really recommend that you use a real, "solid" ground reference
on the instrumentation side, with +/- large (12-20 V) supplies, as
others have suggested.
Your most recent setup diagram indicates that you're relying on the
"differential" input of the audio PC card etc analyzer to allow for the
"floating" common of the analysis circuit. Do you know what the
common-mode rejection characteristics are? A true differential input
would have two coax lines entering a symmetric differential to
single-ended conversion stage at the front end. I doubt that the PC card
actually has this, but maybe some form of DC/LF isolation from the local
input common to chassis ground.
The PC likely has lots of SMPS noise in common-mode form, which probably
can be ignored for audio (the SMPS frequencies are almost always quite
far above audio). As long as the interference signals aren't too big to
upset the LNA operation by say, rectification in various junctions
(especially the front end), it should be OK. You will also have in-band
line frequency and harmonics present in the common-mode signal, but
these should be easier to deal with by virtue of whatever LF CMRR the
sound card does have at lower frequencies.
Now consider the analysis circuit environment, where you have apparently
zero intentional bypassing capacitance from the floating measurement
common to chassis/earth ground. Here, the only bypass caps effectively
are C1 at the REF buffer's input (which will only aggravate the
situation), and the small capacitance between the ports of the mixers. I
believe you have some bypassing at points in the other portion of the
circuit - the PLL for the reference - but I don't know what that looks
like now. So, just looking at this section, I'd say you need some
serious bypassing to ground, for the RF signals from the mixers, and the
common-mode signals in and out of the audio analyzer, DUT, and REF.
I recall there were some recent discussions about rail-splitting and
such, but I didn't look closely. I thought surely someone would have
mentioned the simple way to rail-split with an opamp, into a large
capacitive load, but maybe not.
Without resorting to a more desirable ground-referenced, +/- supply
scenario, you can add significant bypass capacitance from the signal
common to ground, with slight change to the buffer circuit.
-
Add a resistor between the opamp's output and the load, which is
signal common. The current demand appears small, so maybe around a
couple to few hundred ohms should do.
-
Add a resistor in series with the (sense line) inverting input. This
can be in the many k ohms range, depending the opamp's bias current.
-
Add a small capacitor between the opamp's output and inverting input
to stabilize it.
-
Add the bypass cap.
This setup just isolates the opamp from the capacitive load, with the
LF/DC regulated by the opamp, and the HF shunted by the bypass cap.
I'm guessing that once you get good bypassing here, the LNA will work
much better, and you should see the difference with the lower noise
opamp. The reason is that any opamp has limited CMRR, so improving the
bypassing makes the "CM" part smaller. This is also another reason to
operate opamp inputs at or near ground. Actually, the best CM
improvement can be provided by running in inverting mode, so both inputs
are always at ground. Non-inverting modes require the inputs to move,
depending on the signal. In your LNA, the CM input signal range is not
too bad, due to the high gain. The trick is to keep the overall CM - the
operating common level wrt ground and the power supplies - constant and
noise-free.
Regarding microphonics, since you mentioned tapping the housing, it
sounds like you have "canned it up," which is a good thing. Assuming the
REF and DUT are external, so not involved, the audible is coming from
the analysis circuit only, right? That's not too surprising since it's a
high gain system. It could be related to individual component
microphonics, but I'd guess it's an RF effect. The whole thing is awash
in the 2f signal and harmonics from the mixer, and to a lesser extent
the DUT frequency signal that leaks through, so mechanical dimension
changes or movements in the can, board, wiring etc, can change the EM
pattern inside, giving tiny, noticeable phase shifts - after all, that's
what it's for.
Ed
Erik, I'd really recommend that you use a real, "solid" ground reference
on the instrumentation side, with +/- large (12-20 V) supplies, as
others have suggested.
Your most recent setup diagram indicates that you're relying on the
"differential" input of the audio PC card etc analyzer to allow for the
"floating" common of the analysis circuit. Do you know what the
common-mode rejection characteristics are? A true differential input
would have two coax lines entering a symmetric differential to
single-ended conversion stage at the front end. I doubt that the PC card
actually has this, but maybe some form of DC/LF isolation from the local
input common to chassis ground.
The PC likely has lots of SMPS noise in common-mode form, which probably
can be ignored for audio (the SMPS frequencies are almost always quite
far above audio). As long as the interference signals aren't too big to
upset the LNA operation by say, rectification in various junctions
(especially the front end), it should be OK. You will also have in-band
line frequency and harmonics present in the common-mode signal, but
these should be easier to deal with by virtue of whatever LF CMRR the
sound card does have at lower frequencies.
Now consider the analysis circuit environment, where you have apparently
zero intentional bypassing capacitance from the floating measurement
common to chassis/earth ground. Here, the only bypass caps effectively
are C1 at the REF buffer's input (which will only aggravate the
situation), and the small capacitance between the ports of the mixers. I
believe you have some bypassing at points in the other portion of the
circuit - the PLL for the reference - but I don't know what that looks
like now. So, just looking at this section, I'd say you need some
serious bypassing to ground, for the RF signals from the mixers, and the
common-mode signals in and out of the audio analyzer, DUT, and REF.
I recall there were some recent discussions about rail-splitting and
such, but I didn't look closely. I thought surely someone would have
mentioned the simple way to rail-split with an opamp, into a large
capacitive load, but maybe not.
Without resorting to a more desirable ground-referenced, +/- supply
scenario, you can add significant bypass capacitance from the signal
common to ground, with slight change to the buffer circuit.
1. Add a resistor between the opamp's output and the load, which is
signal common. The current demand appears small, so maybe around a
couple to few hundred ohms should do.
2. Add a resistor in series with the (sense line) inverting input. This
can be in the many k ohms range, depending the opamp's bias current.
3. Add a small capacitor between the opamp's output and inverting input
to stabilize it.
4. Add the bypass cap.
This setup just isolates the opamp from the capacitive load, with the
LF/DC regulated by the opamp, and the HF shunted by the bypass cap.
I'm guessing that once you get good bypassing here, the LNA will work
much better, and you should see the difference with the lower noise
opamp. The reason is that any opamp has limited CMRR, so improving the
bypassing makes the "CM" part smaller. This is also another reason to
operate opamp inputs at or near ground. Actually, the best CM
improvement can be provided by running in inverting mode, so both inputs
are always at ground. Non-inverting modes require the inputs to move,
depending on the signal. In your LNA, the CM input signal range is not
too bad, due to the high gain. The trick is to keep the overall CM - the
operating common level wrt ground and the power supplies - constant and
noise-free.
Regarding microphonics, since you mentioned tapping the housing, it
sounds like you have "canned it up," which is a good thing. Assuming the
REF and DUT are external, so not involved, the audible is coming from
the analysis circuit only, right? That's not too surprising since it's a
high gain system. It could be related to individual component
microphonics, but I'd guess it's an RF effect. The whole thing is awash
in the 2f signal and harmonics from the mixer, and to a lesser extent
the DUT frequency signal that leaks through, so mechanical dimension
changes or movements in the can, board, wiring etc, can change the EM
pattern inside, giving tiny, noticeable phase shifts - after all, that's
what it's for.
Ed
EB
ed breya
Tue, Jul 12, 2022 10:51 PM
I forgot to mention that you should also consider possible effects from
the RF present, on the LNA. This can be more significant than SMPS
frequencies getting where they don't belong, especially since the RF is
intentionally right at the opamp's input. Your LPF only reduces, and
does not eliminate, the 2F and harmonics, so there can be significant RF
present on the LNA circuit.
A simplistic view is that the RF is far beyond the opamp's GBW or closed
loop gain and should have no response, but it's not at all beyond
upsetting or altering the operation. This can result in extra DC offsets
and noise due to RF rectification in the input circuits, which only
remain "linear" at frequencies where the output and feedback can keep up
with the input.
This can be fixed if necessary, by adding extra RF filtering,
particularly some built to low-pass at a higher cutoff frequency well
above the analysis frequency, and well below the expected f and 2f.
For instance, in your circuit it looks like L1 is 1 mH, with 100 nF
caps, which ideally cuts off quite low. However, 1 mH is a pretty big
choke, and will tend to have a lot of inter-winding capacitance (and
high resistance - don't forget to include it in noise), making it less
effective at the higher frequencies. Adding an LC section in front of
it, but set up for something in the MHz region, will give much greater
rejection of the f and 2f, due to having more appropriate smaller L and C.
Anyway, if it works fine as is, then no problem, but it's something to
be aware of if you get strange effects down the road.
Ed
I forgot to mention that you should also consider possible effects from
the RF present, on the LNA. This can be more significant than SMPS
frequencies getting where they don't belong, especially since the RF is
intentionally right at the opamp's input. Your LPF only reduces, and
does not eliminate, the 2F and harmonics, so there can be significant RF
present on the LNA circuit.
A simplistic view is that the RF is far beyond the opamp's GBW or closed
loop gain and should have no response, but it's not at all beyond
upsetting or altering the operation. This can result in extra DC offsets
and noise due to RF rectification in the input circuits, which only
remain "linear" at frequencies where the output and feedback can keep up
with the input.
This can be fixed if necessary, by adding extra RF filtering,
particularly some built to low-pass at a higher cutoff frequency well
above the analysis frequency, and well below the expected f and 2f.
For instance, in your circuit it looks like L1 is 1 mH, with 100 nF
caps, which ideally cuts off quite low. However, 1 mH is a pretty big
choke, and will tend to have a lot of inter-winding capacitance (and
high resistance - don't forget to include it in noise), making it less
effective at the higher frequencies. Adding an LC section in front of
it, but set up for something in the MHz region, will give much greater
rejection of the f and 2f, due to having more appropriate smaller L and C.
Anyway, if it works fine as is, then no problem, but it's something to
be aware of if you get strange effects down the road.
Ed
G
glenlist
Wed, Jul 13, 2022 2:10 AM
Super advice Ed, this is really really good advice.
Erik this is sage advice. especially CMR at high frequencies...
Oh and now LED lights overhead your bench which are driven at 5-50kHz
are are next new coupling of noise into your open bench circuits !!!
Glen.
(RF engineer)
On 13/07/2022 7:09 am, ed breya via time-nuts wrote:
Erik, I'd really recommend that you use a real, "solid" ground
reference on the instrumentation side, with +/- large (12-20 V)
supplies, as others have suggested.
Your most recent setup diagram indicates that you're relying on the
"differential" input of the audio PC card etc analyzer to allow for
the "floating" common of the analysis circuit. Do you know what the
common-mode rejection characteristics are? A true differential input
would have two coax lines entering a symmetric differential to
single-ended conversion stage at the front end. I doubt that the PC
card actually has this, but maybe some form of DC/LF isolation from
the local input common to chassis ground.
The PC likely has lots of SMPS noise in common-mode form, which
probably can be ignored for audio (the SMPS frequencies are almost
always quite far above audio). As long as the interference signals
aren't too big to upset the LNA operation by say, rectification in
various junctions (especially the front end), it should be OK. You
will also have in-band line frequency and harmonics present in the
common-mode signal, but these should be easier to deal with by virtue
of whatever LF CMRR the sound card does have at lower frequencies.
Now consider the analysis circuit environment, where you have
apparently zero intentional bypassing capacitance from the floating
measurement common to chassis/earth ground. Here, the only bypass caps
effectively are C1 at the REF buffer's input (which will only
aggravate the situation), and the small capacitance between the ports
of the mixers. I believe you have some bypassing at points in the
other portion of the circuit - the PLL for the reference - but I don't
know what that looks like now. So, just looking at this section, I'd
say you need some serious bypassing to ground, for the RF signals from
the mixers, and the common-mode signals in and out of the audio
analyzer, DUT, and REF.
I recall there were some recent discussions about rail-splitting and
such, but I didn't look closely. I thought surely someone would have
mentioned the simple way to rail-split with an opamp, into a large
capacitive load, but maybe not.
Without resorting to a more desirable ground-referenced, +/- supply
scenario, you can add significant bypass capacitance from the signal
common to ground, with slight change to the buffer circuit.
-
Add a resistor between the opamp's output and the load, which is
signal common. The current demand appears small, so maybe around a
couple to few hundred ohms should do.
-
Add a resistor in series with the (sense line) inverting input.
This can be in the many k ohms range, depending the opamp's bias current.
-
Add a small capacitor between the opamp's output and inverting
input to stabilize it.
-
Add the bypass cap.
This setup just isolates the opamp from the capacitive load, with the
LF/DC regulated by the opamp, and the HF shunted by the bypass cap.
I'm guessing that once you get good bypassing here, the LNA will work
much better, and you should see the difference with the lower noise
opamp. The reason is that any opamp has limited CMRR, so improving the
bypassing makes the "CM" part smaller. This is also another reason to
operate opamp inputs at or near ground. Actually, the best CM
improvement can be provided by running in inverting mode, so both
inputs are always at ground. Non-inverting modes require the inputs to
move, depending on the signal. In your LNA, the CM input signal range
is not too bad, due to the high gain. The trick is to keep the overall
CM - the operating common level wrt ground and the power supplies -
constant and noise-free.
Regarding microphonics, since you mentioned tapping the housing, it
sounds like you have "canned it up," which is a good thing. Assuming
the REF and DUT are external, so not involved, the audible is coming
from the analysis circuit only, right? That's not too surprising since
it's a high gain system. It could be related to individual component
microphonics, but I'd guess it's an RF effect. The whole thing is
awash in the 2f signal and harmonics from the mixer, and to a lesser
extent the DUT frequency signal that leaks through, so mechanical
dimension changes or movements in the can, board, wiring etc, can
change the EM pattern inside, giving tiny, noticeable phase shifts -
after all, that's what it's for.
Ed
Super advice Ed, this is really really good advice.
Erik this is sage advice. especially CMR at high frequencies...
Oh and now LED lights overhead your bench which are driven at 5-50kHz
are are next new coupling of noise into your open bench circuits !!!
Glen.
(RF engineer)
On 13/07/2022 7:09 am, ed breya via time-nuts wrote:
> Erik, I'd really recommend that you use a real, "solid" ground
> reference on the instrumentation side, with +/- large (12-20 V)
> supplies, as others have suggested.
>
> Your most recent setup diagram indicates that you're relying on the
> "differential" input of the audio PC card etc analyzer to allow for
> the "floating" common of the analysis circuit. Do you know what the
> common-mode rejection characteristics are? A true differential input
> would have two coax lines entering a symmetric differential to
> single-ended conversion stage at the front end. I doubt that the PC
> card actually has this, but maybe some form of DC/LF isolation from
> the local input common to chassis ground.
>
> The PC likely has lots of SMPS noise in common-mode form, which
> probably can be ignored for audio (the SMPS frequencies are almost
> always quite far above audio). As long as the interference signals
> aren't too big to upset the LNA operation by say, rectification in
> various junctions (especially the front end), it should be OK. You
> will also have in-band line frequency and harmonics present in the
> common-mode signal, but these should be easier to deal with by virtue
> of whatever LF CMRR the sound card does have at lower frequencies.
>
> Now consider the analysis circuit environment, where you have
> apparently zero intentional bypassing capacitance from the floating
> measurement common to chassis/earth ground. Here, the only bypass caps
> effectively are C1 at the REF buffer's input (which will only
> aggravate the situation), and the small capacitance between the ports
> of the mixers. I believe you have some bypassing at points in the
> other portion of the circuit - the PLL for the reference - but I don't
> know what that looks like now. So, just looking at this section, I'd
> say you need some serious bypassing to ground, for the RF signals from
> the mixers, and the common-mode signals in and out of the audio
> analyzer, DUT, and REF.
>
> I recall there were some recent discussions about rail-splitting and
> such, but I didn't look closely. I thought surely someone would have
> mentioned the simple way to rail-split with an opamp, into a large
> capacitive load, but maybe not.
>
> Without resorting to a more desirable ground-referenced, +/- supply
> scenario, you can add significant bypass capacitance from the signal
> common to ground, with slight change to the buffer circuit.
>
> 1. Add a resistor between the opamp's output and the load, which is
> signal common. The current demand appears small, so maybe around a
> couple to few hundred ohms should do.
>
> 2. Add a resistor in series with the (sense line) inverting input.
> This can be in the many k ohms range, depending the opamp's bias current.
>
> 3. Add a small capacitor between the opamp's output and inverting
> input to stabilize it.
>
> 4. Add the bypass cap.
>
> This setup just isolates the opamp from the capacitive load, with the
> LF/DC regulated by the opamp, and the HF shunted by the bypass cap.
>
> I'm guessing that once you get good bypassing here, the LNA will work
> much better, and you should see the difference with the lower noise
> opamp. The reason is that any opamp has limited CMRR, so improving the
> bypassing makes the "CM" part smaller. This is also another reason to
> operate opamp inputs at or near ground. Actually, the best CM
> improvement can be provided by running in inverting mode, so both
> inputs are always at ground. Non-inverting modes require the inputs to
> move, depending on the signal. In your LNA, the CM input signal range
> is not too bad, due to the high gain. The trick is to keep the overall
> CM - the operating common level wrt ground and the power supplies -
> constant and noise-free.
>
> Regarding microphonics, since you mentioned tapping the housing, it
> sounds like you have "canned it up," which is a good thing. Assuming
> the REF and DUT are external, so not involved, the audible is coming
> from the analysis circuit only, right? That's not too surprising since
> it's a high gain system. It could be related to individual component
> microphonics, but I'd guess it's an RF effect. The whole thing is
> awash in the 2f signal and harmonics from the mixer, and to a lesser
> extent the DUT frequency signal that leaks through, so mechanical
> dimension changes or movements in the can, board, wiring etc, can
> change the EM pattern inside, giving tiny, noticeable phase shifts -
> after all, that's what it's for.
>
> Ed
>
LJ
Lux, Jim
Wed, Jul 13, 2022 2:38 AM
On 7/12/22 3:51 PM, ed breya via time-nuts wrote:
I forgot to mention that you should also consider possible effects
from the RF present, on the LNA. This can be more significant than
SMPS frequencies getting where they don't belong, especially since the
RF is intentionally right at the opamp's input. Your LPF only reduces,
and does not eliminate, the 2F and harmonics, so there can be
significant RF present on the LNA circuit.
A simplistic view is that the RF is far beyond the opamp's GBW or
closed loop gain and should have no response, but it's not at all
beyond upsetting or altering the operation. This can result in extra
DC offsets and noise due to RF rectification in the input circuits,
which only remain "linear" at frequencies where the output and
feedback can keep up with the input.
This can be fixed if necessary, by adding extra RF filtering,
particularly some built to low-pass at a higher cutoff frequency well
above the analysis frequency, and well below the expected f and 2f.
For instance, in your circuit it looks like L1 is 1 mH, with 100 nF
caps, which ideally cuts off quite low. However, 1 mH is a pretty big
choke, and will tend to have a lot of inter-winding capacitance (and
high resistance - don't forget to include it in noise), making it less
effective at the higher frequencies. Adding an LC section in front of
it, but set up for something in the MHz region, will give much greater
rejection of the f and 2f, due to having more appropriate smaller L
and C.
Anyway, if it works fine as is, then no problem, but it's something to
be aware of if you get strange effects down the road.
Ed
and a single LC is only a single pole, so the roll off isn't all that
great in a dB/decade sense.
On 7/12/22 3:51 PM, ed breya via time-nuts wrote:
> I forgot to mention that you should also consider possible effects
> from the RF present, on the LNA. This can be more significant than
> SMPS frequencies getting where they don't belong, especially since the
> RF is intentionally right at the opamp's input. Your LPF only reduces,
> and does not eliminate, the 2F and harmonics, so there can be
> significant RF present on the LNA circuit.
>
> A simplistic view is that the RF is far beyond the opamp's GBW or
> closed loop gain and should have no response, but it's not at all
> beyond upsetting or altering the operation. This can result in extra
> DC offsets and noise due to RF rectification in the input circuits,
> which only remain "linear" at frequencies where the output and
> feedback can keep up with the input.
>
> This can be fixed if necessary, by adding extra RF filtering,
> particularly some built to low-pass at a higher cutoff frequency well
> above the analysis frequency, and well below the expected f and 2f.
>
> For instance, in your circuit it looks like L1 is 1 mH, with 100 nF
> caps, which ideally cuts off quite low. However, 1 mH is a pretty big
> choke, and will tend to have a lot of inter-winding capacitance (and
> high resistance - don't forget to include it in noise), making it less
> effective at the higher frequencies. Adding an LC section in front of
> it, but set up for something in the MHz region, will give much greater
> rejection of the f and 2f, due to having more appropriate smaller L
> and C.
>
> Anyway, if it works fine as is, then no problem, but it's something to
> be aware of if you get strange effects down the road.
>
> Ed
and a single LC is only a single pole, so the roll off isn't all that
great in a dB/decade sense.
G
ghf@hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de
Wed, Jul 13, 2022 6:46 AM
Am 2022-07-13 4:10, schrieb glenlist via time-nuts:
Oh and now LED lights overhead your bench which are driven at 5-50kHz
are are next new coupling of noise into your open bench circuits !!!
The LED ringlight on my microscope creates 57KHz noise peaks when I have
an unshielded low noise amplifier under it. Immediately visible on the
scope, let alone the FFT-analyzer.
Gerhard
Am 2022-07-13 4:10, schrieb glenlist via time-nuts:
> Oh and now LED lights overhead your bench which are driven at 5-50kHz
> are are next new coupling of noise into your open bench circuits !!!
The LED ringlight on my microscope creates 57KHz noise peaks when I have
an unshielded low noise amplifier under it. Immediately visible on the
scope, let alone the FFT-analyzer.
Gerhard