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TWL: GPS Chartplotter Function Question

MM
Michael Maurice
Fri, Aug 23, 2002 7:50 PM

I have just been examining my charts for Baja and Mexico.
Some are US Department of Mapping stuff, some are from the Baja to Panama
Chart Booklet.

The charts some of which date back 20 years have datums:

Local
Local Astro
NAD 1927.
WGS 72.
WGS 84.

The most recent printings generally state WGS 72 or 84 on them.

I think that the only satisfactory solution is to use the offset feature in
most GPS's to relocate your origin point such that the chart you are using
lines up with reality.
And then reset it when you move charts.
My post of the User Datum feature in the Garmin's describes how to do that.
Other machines have similar methods.

At 03:03 PM 8/23/02 -0700, you wrote:

floating vessel sitting on the beach or beyond may be partly related to the

datum of the

chart in use, rather than being entirely related to an inaccurate GPS Cart

chart.  If the plotter doesn't switch the datum automatically and is using a
chart with something other than the WGS84 datum, that may be a source for
part of the inaccuracy.  If we could somehow learn the datum used for the
Baja charts we might be able to put the boat back in the drink, where it
belongs.

Capt. Mike Maurice
Near Portland Oregon.

I have just been examining my charts for Baja and Mexico. Some are US Department of Mapping stuff, some are from the Baja to Panama Chart Booklet. The charts some of which date back 20 years have datums: Local Local Astro NAD 1927. WGS 72. WGS 84. The most recent printings generally state WGS 72 or 84 on them. I think that the only satisfactory solution is to use the offset feature in most GPS's to relocate your origin point such that the chart you are using lines up with reality. And then reset it when you move charts. My post of the User Datum feature in the Garmin's describes how to do that. Other machines have similar methods. At 03:03 PM 8/23/02 -0700, you wrote: > >floating vessel sitting on the beach or beyond may be partly related to the >datum of the > >chart in use, rather than being entirely related to an inaccurate GPS Cart >chart. If the plotter doesn't switch the datum automatically and is using a >chart with something other than the WGS84 datum, that may be a source for >part of the inaccuracy. If we could somehow learn the datum used for the >Baja charts we might be able to put the boat back in the drink, where it >belongs. Capt. Mike Maurice Near Portland Oregon.
FW
frank weismantel
Fri, Aug 23, 2002 10:03 PM

Howdy All,

When installing a map cartridge into a GPS chartplotter, does the
chartplotter automatically switch the datum it is using to match up with the
chart you are viewing?  I could find no evidence of this feature on either
the C-Map, Garmin, Interphase or Furuno (now there is a worthless website)
websites.

Most of the most recent NOAA charts appear to use
the WGS84 datum.  I was looking at the C-Map NT+ web information and
discovered their
Mexico charts use a mix of NOAA and CMP (?) series charts.  I'd be willing
to bet that NOAA and CMP(?) use different datums even though they are on the
same cartridge.

I searched the Mexican hydrographic office website and found no reference to
"CMP" as a
hydrographic survey organization nor did I find any reference to the datum
used on
the CMP (or any Baja Peninsula) series charts (unfortunately my Spanish
stinks).  C-Map and CMP seem
suspiciously similar.

I've been playing with different datums in my handheld and find that many of
them move me much more than a few seconds.

Arild, Captain Michael Maurice and Keith have been more than kind in giving
me guidance on this subject.

For sure, there are documented problems with digitizing and quality control
by the chart cartridge companies.  Taking that into consideration, I'm
starting to think that some of the problems with chartplotters showing a

floating vessel sitting on the beach or beyond may be partly related to the

datum of the

chart in use, rather than being entirely related to an inaccurate GPS Cart

chart.  If the plotter doesn't switch the datum automatically and is using a
chart with something other than the WGS84 datum, that may be a source for
part of the inaccuracy.  If we could somehow learn the datum used for the
Baja charts we might be able to put the boat back in the drink, where it
belongs.

You folks that cruise the Caribbean are on your own.  I'm having enough
trouble with Spanish websites, let alone those written in the Queen's
English.

Regards to all (TGIF),

Frank & Claudette Weismantel
Elverta, CA
Boatless for a little while longer

Howdy All, When installing a map cartridge into a GPS chartplotter, does the chartplotter automatically switch the datum it is using to match up with the chart you are viewing? I could find no evidence of this feature on either the C-Map, Garmin, Interphase or Furuno (now there is a worthless website) websites. Most of the most recent NOAA charts appear to use the WGS84 datum. I was looking at the C-Map NT+ web information and discovered their Mexico charts use a mix of NOAA and CMP (?) series charts. I'd be willing to bet that NOAA and CMP(?) use different datums even though they are on the same cartridge. I searched the Mexican hydrographic office website and found no reference to "CMP" as a hydrographic survey organization nor did I find any reference to the datum used on the CMP (or any Baja Peninsula) series charts (unfortunately my Spanish stinks). C-Map and CMP seem suspiciously similar. I've been playing with different datums in my handheld and find that many of them move me much more than a few seconds. Arild, Captain Michael Maurice and Keith have been more than kind in giving me guidance on this subject. For sure, there are documented problems with digitizing and quality control by the chart cartridge companies. Taking that into consideration, I'm starting to think that some of the problems with chartplotters showing a >floating vessel sitting on the beach or beyond may be partly related to the datum of the >chart in use, rather than being entirely related to an inaccurate GPS Cart chart. If the plotter doesn't switch the datum automatically and is using a chart with something other than the WGS84 datum, that may be a source for part of the inaccuracy. If we could somehow learn the datum used for the Baja charts we might be able to put the boat back in the drink, where it belongs. You folks that cruise the Caribbean are on your own. I'm having enough trouble with Spanish websites, let alone those written in the Queen's English. Regards to all (TGIF), Frank & Claudette Weismantel Elverta, CA Boatless for a little while longer
AJ
Arild Jensen
Sat, Aug 24, 2002 6:51 AM

Howdy All,

When installing a map cartridge into a GPS chartplotter, does the
chartplotter automatically switch the datum it is using to match up with the
chart you are viewing?  I could find no evidence of this feature on either the
C-Map, Garmin, Interphase or Furuno (now there is a worthless website) websites.

REPLY
When a paper chart is digitized as either a raster or vector format the process
includes applying a block shift so that  the default WGS 84 in th eGPS is correct for
the displayed charrt.

Do not get confused by the facct a raster chart may show NAD 27 in the part
showing the printed title block.
As displayed on the screen it is corrected by a block shift to WGS 84.
Same thing for vector charts in C-Map and Navionics etc.
While a paper chart for the same area may still be drawn to an older datum the
elecrtonic version is corrected.

Most of the most recent NOAA charts appear to use
the WGS84 datum.  I was looking at the C-Map NT+ web information and
discovered their
Mexico charts use a mix of NOAA and CMP (?) series charts.  I'd be willing
to bet that NOAA and CMP(?) use different datums even though they are on the
same cartridge.

REPLY
Not so, see above note.  C-Map or Navionics or Furuno has made the shift if the
Mexican  government is still using some other datum.

For sure, there are documented problems with digitizing and quality control by
the chart cartridge companies.  Taking that into consideration, I'm starting to
think that some of the problems with chartplotters showing a >floating vessel
sitting on the beach or beyond may be partly related to the datum of the >chart
in use, rather than being entirely related to an inaccurate GPS Cart chart.  If
the plotter doesn't switch the datum automatically and is using a chart with
something other than the WGS84 datum, that may be a source for part of the
inaccuracy.  If we could somehow learn the datum used for the Baja charts we
might be able to put the boat back in the drink, where it belongs.

If the Baja charts have a discrepancy, the problem may be that  the actual datum of
that particular  area is not known in suffficient  detail to  apply a block shift correctly.

Arild

> Howdy All, > > When installing a map cartridge into a GPS chartplotter, does the > chartplotter automatically switch the datum it is using to match up with the > chart you are viewing? I could find no evidence of this feature on either the > C-Map, Garmin, Interphase or Furuno (now there is a worthless website) websites. REPLY When a paper chart is digitized as either a raster or vector format the process includes applying a block shift so that the default WGS 84 in th eGPS is correct for the displayed charrt. Do not get confused by the facct a raster chart may show NAD 27 in the part showing the printed title block. As displayed on the screen it is corrected by a block shift to WGS 84. Same thing for vector charts in C-Map and Navionics etc. While a paper chart for the same area may still be drawn to an older datum the elecrtonic version is corrected. > > Most of the most recent NOAA charts appear to use > the WGS84 datum. I was looking at the C-Map NT+ web information and > discovered their > Mexico charts use a mix of NOAA and CMP (?) series charts. I'd be willing > to bet that NOAA and CMP(?) use different datums even though they are on the > same cartridge. REPLY Not so, see above note. C-Map or Navionics or Furuno has made the shift if the Mexican government is still using some other datum. > For sure, there are documented problems with digitizing and quality control by > the chart cartridge companies. Taking that into consideration, I'm starting to > think that some of the problems with chartplotters showing a >floating vessel > sitting on the beach or beyond may be partly related to the datum of the >chart > in use, rather than being entirely related to an inaccurate GPS Cart chart. If > the plotter doesn't switch the datum automatically and is using a chart with > something other than the WGS84 datum, that may be a source for part of the > inaccuracy. If we could somehow learn the datum used for the Baja charts we > might be able to put the boat back in the drink, where it belongs. If the Baja charts have a discrepancy, the problem may be that the actual datum of that particular area is not known in suffficient detail to apply a block shift correctly. Arild
FW
frank weismantel
Sat, Aug 24, 2002 3:36 PM

Howdy All,

Further proof that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, especially in my
hands...Thanks Arild and Capt MM for setting me back on course.

Regards to all...

Frank & Claudette Weismantel
Elverta, CA
Boatless for a little while longer

-----Original Message-----
From: Arild Jensen [mailto:elnav@uniserve.com]
Sent: Friday, August 23, 2002 11:52 PM
To: Trawler-World-List; fxw@gwgi2010.com
Subject: Re: TWL: GPS Chartplotter Function Question

SNIP
REPLY
When a paper chart is digitized as either a raster or vector format the
process
includes applying a block shift so that  the default WGS 84 in th eGPS is
correct for
the displayed charrt.

Do not get confused by the facct a raster chart may show NAD 27 in the part
showing the printed title block.
As displayed on the screen it is corrected by a block shift to WGS 84.
Same thing for vector charts in C-Map and Navionics etc.
While a paper chart for the same area may still be drawn to an older datum
the
elecrtonic version is corrected.
<SNIP>

Howdy All, Further proof that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, especially in my hands...Thanks Arild and Capt MM for setting me back on course. Regards to all... Frank & Claudette Weismantel Elverta, CA Boatless for a little while longer -----Original Message----- From: Arild Jensen [mailto:elnav@uniserve.com] Sent: Friday, August 23, 2002 11:52 PM To: Trawler-World-List; fxw@gwgi2010.com Subject: Re: TWL: GPS Chartplotter Function Question SNIP REPLY When a paper chart is digitized as either a raster or vector format the process includes applying a block shift so that the default WGS 84 in th eGPS is correct for the displayed charrt. Do not get confused by the facct a raster chart may show NAD 27 in the part showing the printed title block. As displayed on the screen it is corrected by a block shift to WGS 84. Same thing for vector charts in C-Map and Navionics etc. While a paper chart for the same area may still be drawn to an older datum the elecrtonic version is corrected. <SNIP>
GM
Gregg.McKay@telus.net
Tue, Aug 27, 2002 5:30 AM

^From Arild:

REPLY
When a paper chart is digitized as either a raster or vector format the
process
includes applying a block shift so that  the default WGS 84 in the eGPS
is correct for
the displayed chart.

Thanks, Arild. I've been changing the datum settings in my GPS to match
whatever chart I'm using.  I checked the help section of Nobeltec and
sure enough it said that VNS assumes that the GPS is outputting
information using the WGS84 datum.

Question:  Why do they even bother listing the chart's original datum if
that is not how it is presented on the screen?

Or at least they could give both the original datum and the electronic
'corrected' datum.

Or I could have read the manual more carefully.

Gregg McKay
Tolly 37
Victoria, BC

^From Arild: REPLY When a paper chart is digitized as either a raster or vector format the process includes applying a block shift so that the default WGS 84 in the eGPS is correct for the displayed chart. Thanks, Arild. I've been changing the datum settings in my GPS to match whatever chart I'm using. I checked the help section of Nobeltec and sure enough it said that VNS assumes that the GPS is outputting information using the WGS84 datum. Question: Why do they even bother listing the chart's original datum if that is not how it is presented on the screen? Or at least they could give both the original datum and the electronic 'corrected' datum. Or I could have read the manual more carefully. Gregg McKay Tolly 37 Victoria, BC