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Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement

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Re: DOXCO from Z3801

EB
ed breya
Tue, Mar 7, 2023 4:50 PM

Maybe the clock option is working just fine, but not applied properly.
It could be that the driver output is an open-collector, meant to pull a
stepper coil or such down to ground for each pulse. Without a load,
you'd see just some small collector voltage due to the base current in
the output transistor - the forward base-emitter voltage, minus the
forward base-collector junction voltage could be in the tens of mV into
high a impedance (like a scope) measurement.

So, try adding a pull-up resistor to draw at least a few mA, and see if
it looks different. Good luck.

Ed

Maybe the clock option is working just fine, but not applied properly. It could be that the driver output is an open-collector, meant to pull a stepper coil or such down to ground for each pulse. Without a load, you'd see just some small collector voltage due to the base current in the output transistor - the forward base-emitter voltage, minus the forward base-collector junction voltage could be in the tens of mV into high a impedance (like a scope) measurement. So, try adding a pull-up resistor to draw at least a few mA, and see if it looks different. Good luck. Ed
EB
ed breya
Fri, Mar 24, 2023 8:22 PM

As always on this subject type, I must comment on the utility of
managing ground loops with common-mode chokes on cables between
equipment. I think this is the simplest, most beneficial thing you can
do for good quality signal distribution.

Good cables, shielding, and grounding are all fine and good, but do not
address the ground loop currents that inevitably flow between any
interconnected pieces of gear. Adding CM chokes raises the common-mode
impedance of the cable(s), greatly reducing the loop currents. You can
see these parts all the time, inside equipment, or added or built into
cable assemblies and such - almost always to fix EMC issues. The
simplest are the clip-on type ferrites that are easily added to almost
any cable type.

These are mainly to suppress RF and HF emissions from SMPSs and digital
circuits and such, but they can also be effective even for mains
frequency (and harmonics) ground loop control, with the right cores and
some simple tricks. The reason is that the voltage levels and impedances
are quite low (millivolts and milliohms), so adding even a small
inductive reactance can be quite effective, percentage-wise.

If you have mains frequency ground loop problems, you can try cores with
as high an A sub L as possible, and even better, multiple turns to get
the squaring benefit. There are ferrites available that should do well,
depending on the situation. I have even used regular silicon steel wound
or laminated line frequency transformer cores as CM chokes in certain
situations where very large line rejection was needed.

For narrow-band distribution of 10 MHz for instance, another option is
to use transformer coupling of the signal, so the low frequency ground
current and interference is eliminated, and a high frequency CM choke
can take care of the rest.

Ed

As always on this subject type, I must comment on the utility of managing ground loops with common-mode chokes on cables between equipment. I think this is the simplest, most beneficial thing you can do for good quality signal distribution. Good cables, shielding, and grounding are all fine and good, but do not address the ground loop currents that inevitably flow between any interconnected pieces of gear. Adding CM chokes raises the common-mode impedance of the cable(s), greatly reducing the loop currents. You can see these parts all the time, inside equipment, or added or built into cable assemblies and such - almost always to fix EMC issues. The simplest are the clip-on type ferrites that are easily added to almost any cable type. These are mainly to suppress RF and HF emissions from SMPSs and digital circuits and such, but they can also be effective even for mains frequency (and harmonics) ground loop control, with the right cores and some simple tricks. The reason is that the voltage levels and impedances are quite low (millivolts and milliohms), so adding even a small inductive reactance can be quite effective, percentage-wise. If you have mains frequency ground loop problems, you can try cores with as high an A sub L as possible, and even better, multiple turns to get the squaring benefit. There are ferrites available that should do well, depending on the situation. I have even used regular silicon steel wound or laminated line frequency transformer cores as CM chokes in certain situations where very large line rejection was needed. For narrow-band distribution of 10 MHz for instance, another option is to use transformer coupling of the signal, so the low frequency ground current and interference is eliminated, and a high frequency CM choke can take care of the rest. Ed
DB
David Bengtson
Sat, Mar 25, 2023 7:32 PM

I've come across this document

audiosystemsgroup.com/RFI-Ham.pdf

which is a good compilation of RFI minimization focused at Ham
operators, so focused at HF frequencies (Sub 30 MHz) so pretty
relevant.

Dave

On Sat, Mar 25, 2023 at 5:04 AM ed breya via time-nuts
time-nuts@lists.febo.com wrote:

As always on this subject type, I must comment on the utility of
managing ground loops with common-mode chokes on cables between
equipment. I think this is the simplest, most beneficial thing you can
do for good quality signal distribution.

Good cables, shielding, and grounding are all fine and good, but do not
address the ground loop currents that inevitably flow between any
interconnected pieces of gear. Adding CM chokes raises the common-mode
impedance of the cable(s), greatly reducing the loop currents. You can
see these parts all the time, inside equipment, or added or built into
cable assemblies and such - almost always to fix EMC issues. The
simplest are the clip-on type ferrites that are easily added to almost
any cable type.

These are mainly to suppress RF and HF emissions from SMPSs and digital
circuits and such, but they can also be effective even for mains
frequency (and harmonics) ground loop control, with the right cores and
some simple tricks. The reason is that the voltage levels and impedances
are quite low (millivolts and milliohms), so adding even a small
inductive reactance can be quite effective, percentage-wise.

If you have mains frequency ground loop problems, you can try cores with
as high an A sub L as possible, and even better, multiple turns to get
the squaring benefit. There are ferrites available that should do well,
depending on the situation. I have even used regular silicon steel wound
or laminated line frequency transformer cores as CM chokes in certain
situations where very large line rejection was needed.

For narrow-band distribution of 10 MHz for instance, another option is
to use transformer coupling of the signal, so the low frequency ground
current and interference is eliminated, and a high frequency CM choke
can take care of the rest.

Ed


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I've come across this document audiosystemsgroup.com/RFI-Ham.pdf which is a good compilation of RFI minimization focused at Ham operators, so focused at HF frequencies (Sub 30 MHz) so pretty relevant. Dave On Sat, Mar 25, 2023 at 5:04 AM ed breya via time-nuts <time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote: > > As always on this subject type, I must comment on the utility of > managing ground loops with common-mode chokes on cables between > equipment. I think this is the simplest, most beneficial thing you can > do for good quality signal distribution. > > Good cables, shielding, and grounding are all fine and good, but do not > address the ground loop currents that inevitably flow between any > interconnected pieces of gear. Adding CM chokes raises the common-mode > impedance of the cable(s), greatly reducing the loop currents. You can > see these parts all the time, inside equipment, or added or built into > cable assemblies and such - almost always to fix EMC issues. The > simplest are the clip-on type ferrites that are easily added to almost > any cable type. > > These are mainly to suppress RF and HF emissions from SMPSs and digital > circuits and such, but they can also be effective even for mains > frequency (and harmonics) ground loop control, with the right cores and > some simple tricks. The reason is that the voltage levels and impedances > are quite low (millivolts and milliohms), so adding even a small > inductive reactance can be quite effective, percentage-wise. > > If you have mains frequency ground loop problems, you can try cores with > as high an A sub L as possible, and even better, multiple turns to get > the squaring benefit. There are ferrites available that should do well, > depending on the situation. I have even used regular silicon steel wound > or laminated line frequency transformer cores as CM chokes in certain > situations where very large line rejection was needed. > > For narrow-band distribution of 10 MHz for instance, another option is > to use transformer coupling of the signal, so the low frequency ground > current and interference is eliminated, and a high frequency CM choke > can take care of the rest. > > Ed > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
EB
ed breya
Tue, Mar 28, 2023 6:01 AM

A cold oven is nearly the only and best explanation for that much error.
The good news is that these can be readily opened up and worked on.
There's plenty of info out there.

Ed

A cold oven is nearly the only and best explanation for that much error. The good news is that these can be readily opened up and worked on. There's plenty of info out there. Ed
EB
ed breya
Thu, Mar 30, 2023 4:51 PM

Wow - that is scary-burnt. Maybe it's a good idea to have some form of
thermal cutout, even if a nuisance sometimes.

Ed

Wow - that is scary-burnt. Maybe it's a good idea to have some form of thermal cutout, even if a nuisance sometimes. Ed
BC
Bob Camp
Thu, Mar 30, 2023 7:27 PM

Hi

It’s not that different than a lot of components dying. They often get smoky and stinky at their
end of life. Other than the HP parts, pretty much every OCXO out there is a “no fuse” version.
Most OEM’s didn’t like the idea. The military very much did not like the idea…..

Bob

On Mar 30, 2023, at 12:51 PM, ed breya via time-nuts time-nuts@lists.febo.com wrote:

Wow - that is scary-burnt. Maybe it's a good idea to have some form of thermal cutout, even if a nuisance sometimes.

Ed


time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com

Hi It’s not that different than a lot of components dying. They often get smoky and stinky at their end of life. Other than the HP parts, pretty much every OCXO out there is a “no fuse” version. Most OEM’s didn’t like the idea. The military very much did not like the idea….. Bob > On Mar 30, 2023, at 12:51 PM, ed breya via time-nuts <time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote: > > Wow - that is scary-burnt. Maybe it's a good idea to have some form of thermal cutout, even if a nuisance sometimes. > > Ed > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
AG
Adrian Godwin
Thu, Mar 30, 2023 8:07 PM

'A lot of components' don't have heaters in them, though. That's what makes
them exceptionally smoky.

On Thu, Mar 30, 2023 at 8:34 PM Bob Camp via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:

Hi

It’s not that different than a lot of components dying. They often get
smoky and stinky at their
end of life. Other than the HP parts, pretty much every OCXO out there is
a “no fuse” version.
Most OEM’s didn’t like the idea. The military very much did not like the
idea…..

Bob

On Mar 30, 2023, at 12:51 PM, ed breya via time-nuts <

Wow - that is scary-burnt. Maybe it's a good idea to have some form of

thermal cutout, even if a nuisance sometimes.

Ed


time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com


time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com

'A lot of components' don't have heaters in them, though. That's what makes them exceptionally smoky. On Thu, Mar 30, 2023 at 8:34 PM Bob Camp via time-nuts < time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote: > Hi > > It’s not that different than a lot of components dying. They often get > smoky and stinky at their > end of life. Other than the HP parts, pretty much every OCXO out there is > a “no fuse” version. > Most OEM’s didn’t like the idea. The military very much did not like the > idea….. > > Bob > > > On Mar 30, 2023, at 12:51 PM, ed breya via time-nuts < > time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote: > > > > Wow - that is scary-burnt. Maybe it's a good idea to have some form of > thermal cutout, even if a nuisance sometimes. > > > > Ed > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > > To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
GW
Gary Woods
Fri, Mar 31, 2023 2:43 PM

On Thu, 30 Mar 2023 21:07:18 +0100, you wrote:

A lot of components' don't have heaters in them, though. That's what makes
them exceptionally smoky

And the silicon devices sometimes revert to sand.

Gary Woods O- K2AHC

On Thu, 30 Mar 2023 21:07:18 +0100, you wrote: >A lot of components' don't have heaters in them, though. That's what makes >them exceptionally smoky And the silicon devices sometimes revert to sand. -- Gary Woods O- K2AHC
EB
ed breya
Tue, May 9, 2023 7:33 PM

It's a bit tricky to use prescalers for arbitrary input signals. As
others have mentioned, they self-oscillate when there isn't a valid
input signal. This is not only a possible, but nearly certain
characteristic due to the (typically) ECL input amplifier being biased
right at the logic threshold, followed by lots of gain, then divided by
flip-flops. These were typically used in PLL synthesizers over limited
frequency ranges, with known, adequate power levels.

If you are counting strong signals at well defined DC levels, you can
use ECL directly with proper biasing. For a general purpose counter, you
want lots of sensitivity and wide frequency range, so the usual
prescaler with self-biasing and AC coupling is a simple way to go. You
just have to be aware of the limitations. You can eliminate the
oscillation tendency by giving up some sensitivity, but it's easiest to
just ignore it unless it causes trouble.

I'm quite familiar with the MB series and other prescalers, and have
used them in many projects. All the prescalers I have were salvaged from
old equipment, and I believe that most are long obsolete, since their
function has been mostly absorbed into the modern PLL chips.

Nowadays you can get 100-series ECL parts that can toggle to several
GHz, and in various gates, FFs, and counter types. You could build say,
a divide by 10 or other values with a programmable counter, I believe up
to a couple GHz. I don't recall all the parts and specs, but they're out
there. If you want to make it for arbitrary inputs, you'd first buffer
it with an AC coupled, self-biased line receiver cascade before
counting, and you'd be right back to a self-oscillating - but much more
versatile - prescaler.

So, if you can get this fully assembled, connectorized, ready to go
MB506 module for seven pounds, just do it - maybe get several - if the
specs are suitable for your needs. It beats the hell out a DIY one,
except for not having a nice convenient decade divide ratio. You should
look up the MB506 datasheet to see the actual capabilities - you can
usually extend the low end, for instance, by adding more input coupling
capacitance. Anyway, I don't know if the MB506 is even made anymore, but
if it is, I'd guess it alone would cost more than this module.

There used to be all sorts of prescaler ICs with various ratios,
including 10, so you might find NOS parts, but with the grief of
building something. There's also an old trick in doing counters with
binary prescalers, which is to change the counter clock frequency so the
net overall divide ratio is a nice decade value, but making the clock
and working the decimal points gets tricky. Also, if the binary divide
is big, the counter is correspondingly very slow.

Of course, if you want to get fancier, you can make a PLL/VCO based
converter that replicates the unknown input frequency at say 1/10th. But
you'll still likely have the same sort of prescaler deal involved,
inside of a PLL chip.

Ed

It's a bit tricky to use prescalers for arbitrary input signals. As others have mentioned, they self-oscillate when there isn't a valid input signal. This is not only a possible, but nearly certain characteristic due to the (typically) ECL input amplifier being biased right at the logic threshold, followed by lots of gain, then divided by flip-flops. These were typically used in PLL synthesizers over limited frequency ranges, with known, adequate power levels. If you are counting strong signals at well defined DC levels, you can use ECL directly with proper biasing. For a general purpose counter, you want lots of sensitivity and wide frequency range, so the usual prescaler with self-biasing and AC coupling is a simple way to go. You just have to be aware of the limitations. You can eliminate the oscillation tendency by giving up some sensitivity, but it's easiest to just ignore it unless it causes trouble. I'm quite familiar with the MB series and other prescalers, and have used them in many projects. All the prescalers I have were salvaged from old equipment, and I believe that most are long obsolete, since their function has been mostly absorbed into the modern PLL chips. Nowadays you can get 100-series ECL parts that can toggle to several GHz, and in various gates, FFs, and counter types. You could build say, a divide by 10 or other values with a programmable counter, I believe up to a couple GHz. I don't recall all the parts and specs, but they're out there. If you want to make it for arbitrary inputs, you'd first buffer it with an AC coupled, self-biased line receiver cascade before counting, and you'd be right back to a self-oscillating - but much more versatile - prescaler. So, if you can get this fully assembled, connectorized, ready to go MB506 module for seven pounds, just do it - maybe get several - if the specs are suitable for your needs. It beats the hell out a DIY one, except for not having a nice convenient decade divide ratio. You should look up the MB506 datasheet to see the actual capabilities - you can usually extend the low end, for instance, by adding more input coupling capacitance. Anyway, I don't know if the MB506 is even made anymore, but if it is, I'd guess it alone would cost more than this module. There used to be all sorts of prescaler ICs with various ratios, including 10, so you might find NOS parts, but with the grief of building something. There's also an old trick in doing counters with binary prescalers, which is to change the counter clock frequency so the net overall divide ratio is a nice decade value, but making the clock and working the decimal points gets tricky. Also, if the binary divide is big, the counter is correspondingly very slow. Of course, if you want to get fancier, you can make a PLL/VCO based converter that replicates the unknown input frequency at say 1/10th. But you'll still likely have the same sort of prescaler deal involved, inside of a PLL chip. Ed
EB
ed breya
Wed, May 10, 2023 8:27 PM

Looks like the classic MC12080 is still in production by Onsemi in the
USD7 range. It can divide by 10, 20, 40, or 80 up to 1.1 GHz spec and
likely can reach over 1.5 GHz. You'd have to build a circuit for it,
unless someone offers a module of some sort.

Ed

Looks like the classic MC12080 is still in production by Onsemi in the USD7 range. It can divide by 10, 20, 40, or 80 up to 1.1 GHz spec and likely can reach over 1.5 GHz. You'd have to build a circuit for it, unless someone offers a module of some sort. Ed