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Re: T&T: Engine Coolant Safety thru Hot water heater

RG
Rich Gano
Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:01 PM

Thanks for the come-back, Kevin.  If by "off" you mean there was no power to
the potable water pump, and thus no pressure in the hot water tank, I
understand how thw coolant level in the recovery bottle went down.
Otherwise, it would seem the reverse would have happened in the coolant
recovery bottle.

Rich Gano
CALYPSO (GB-42-CL #295)
Southport, FL

Thanks for the come-back, Kevin. If by "off" you mean there was no power to the potable water pump, and thus no pressure in the hot water tank, I understand how thw coolant level in the recovery bottle went down. Otherwise, it would seem the reverse would have happened in the coolant recovery bottle. -- Rich Gano CALYPSO (GB-42-CL #295) Southport, FL
K
KevinR
Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:30 PM

Hi Rich,

Yes, "off" did mean no power to the pump, hence no pressure in the lines.

When the pump was powered up, the pressure sure wasn't anything to write
home about, although the flow was fine. While I don't have a pressure gauge
on the domestic water, I would guess it sure wasn't greater than 25 psi.

Kevin

Hi Rich, Yes, "off" did mean no power to the pump, hence no pressure in the lines. When the pump was powered up, the pressure sure wasn't anything to write home about, although the flow was fine. While I don't have a pressure gauge on the domestic water, I would guess it sure wasn't greater than 25 psi. Kevin
DM
David Marchand
Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:31 PM

This is an interesting topic for discussion on a cold winter's day, but in
the end it really doesn't matter. As a safety issue, how many of you drink
hot water? I might draw some hot water to boil some pasta in, so I might
ingest a little bit. But I never drink it. I might draw some hot water to
heat up on the stove to make tea. But after thinking about it just now, I
won't do that.

I thought all of this through some years ago (on a cold winter's day) and
decided it really didn't matter from a safety standpoint. But yes, engine
coolant can get in the hot water system, irrespective of what Raritan may
say. I routinely shut off the fresh water pump under way and when the
pressure finally leaks down, it is possible for coolant to leak into the
"potable" water heat exchanger. A good way to mitigate this problem is to
keep your fresh water system tight. Mine will hold its pressure for many
hours, maybe days.

The two ways to resolve this don't make sense: use of propylene glycol
antifreeze (pg is non toxic) in my engine's coolant system and the use of a
"double wall" heat exchanger. Double wall heat exchangers don't exist AFAIK.
You can do the same thing with a closed loop intermediate system. You could
install a closed loop propylene glycol system with a separate heat exchanger
and pump to isolate your boat's engine cooling system from your hot water
heat exchanger. Some boats do this if they have separate propylene glycol
system for space heating, but the vast majority do not.

And propylene glycol antifreeze isn't compatable with my engine's cooling
sytem, only a special ethylene glycol antifreeze that won't cause problems
with the aluminum head is compatable.

So take some sensible precautions like not using hot water to make tea and
you will be safe.

David

This is an interesting topic for discussion on a cold winter's day, but in the end it really doesn't matter. As a safety issue, how many of you drink hot water? I might draw some hot water to boil some pasta in, so I might ingest a little bit. But I never drink it. I might draw some hot water to heat up on the stove to make tea. But after thinking about it just now, I won't do that. I thought all of this through some years ago (on a cold winter's day) and decided it really didn't matter from a safety standpoint. But yes, engine coolant can get in the hot water system, irrespective of what Raritan may say. I routinely shut off the fresh water pump under way and when the pressure finally leaks down, it is possible for coolant to leak into the "potable" water heat exchanger. A good way to mitigate this problem is to keep your fresh water system tight. Mine will hold its pressure for many hours, maybe days. The two ways to resolve this don't make sense: use of propylene glycol antifreeze (pg is non toxic) in my engine's coolant system and the use of a "double wall" heat exchanger. Double wall heat exchangers don't exist AFAIK. You can do the same thing with a closed loop intermediate system. You could install a closed loop propylene glycol system with a separate heat exchanger and pump to isolate your boat's engine cooling system from your hot water heat exchanger. Some boats do this if they have separate propylene glycol system for space heating, but the vast majority do not. And propylene glycol antifreeze isn't compatable with my engine's cooling sytem, only a special ethylene glycol antifreeze that won't cause problems with the aluminum head is compatable. So take some sensible precautions like not using hot water to make tea and you will be safe. David
SH
Scott H.E. Welch
Thu, Jan 7, 2010 7:38 PM

"David Marchand" djmarchand@cox.net writes:

Double wall heat exchangers don't exist AFAIK.

Actually, they are very common. Almost all domestic hot water solar heaters
use them, as do most marine hot water heaters. From
www.heatexchangersonline.com: "Our line of double wall brazed plate heat
exchangers are suitable for potable water, food industry, pharmaceutical and
various other applications where the possibility of cross contamination must
be eliminated. Each double wall plate actually consists of two thin plates
welded together with a small air gap, which is vented to the atmosphere.
Should any leakage occur as a result of cracks or pin holes it will be
detected on the outside of the heat exchanger. "

I'm actually shocked that Raritan does not use them, as it seems to me it's a
liability waiting to happen. I'm guessing that AYBC rules also require a dual
wall design. In fact, even the heat exchanger for my heating system
(Hurricane) is double wall.

Scott Welch

"Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn
out." - John Wooden

"David Marchand" <djmarchand@cox.net> writes: >Double wall heat exchangers don't exist AFAIK. Actually, they are very common. Almost all domestic hot water solar heaters use them, as do most marine hot water heaters. From www.heatexchangersonline.com: "Our line of double wall brazed plate heat exchangers are suitable for potable water, food industry, pharmaceutical and various other applications where the possibility of cross contamination must be eliminated. Each double wall plate actually consists of two thin plates welded together with a small air gap, which is vented to the atmosphere. Should any leakage occur as a result of cracks or pin holes it will be detected on the outside of the heat exchanger. " I'm actually shocked that Raritan does not use them, as it seems to me it's a liability waiting to happen. I'm guessing that AYBC rules also require a dual wall design. In fact, even the heat exchanger for my heating system (Hurricane) is double wall. Scott Welch "Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out." - John Wooden
RG
Rich Gano
Thu, Jan 7, 2010 7:59 PM

Thanks, Kevin, that "splains" a lot.  I never switch off my potable water
pump off so I suppose in theory it would be possile to pump all the boat's
potable water into the bilge via a holed single-wall tubing run inside my
water heat to the engine, out through its radiator cap's relief into the
tubing to the recovery bottle and out its overflow.

Ain't boats fun?!!

On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 12:30 PM, KevinR kfredden@verizon.net wrote:

Hi Rich,

Yes, off did mean no power to the pump, hence no pressure in the lines.

When the pump was powered up, the pressure sure wasnt anything to write
home about, although the flow was fine. While I dont have a pressure gauge
on the domestic water, I would guess it sure wasnt greater than 25 psi.

Kevin

--
Rich Gano
CALYPSO (GB-42-CL #295)
Southport, FL

Thanks, Kevin, that "splains" a lot. I never switch off my potable water pump off so I suppose in theory it would be possile to pump all the boat's potable water into the bilge via a holed single-wall tubing run inside my water heat to the engine, out through its radiator cap's relief into the tubing to the recovery bottle and out its overflow. Ain't boats fun?!! On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 12:30 PM, KevinR <kfredden@verizon.net> wrote: > Hi Rich, > > > > Yes, off did mean no power to the pump, hence no pressure in the lines. > > > > When the pump was powered up, the pressure sure wasnt anything to write > home about, although the flow was fine. While I dont have a pressure gauge > on the domestic water, I would guess it sure wasnt greater than 25 psi. > > > > Kevin > -- Rich Gano CALYPSO (GB-42-CL #295) Southport, FL
JA
Jim Ague
Thu, Jan 7, 2010 8:46 PM

Thanks, Kevin, that "splains" a lot.  I never switch off my potable water
pump off so ...

I used to leave the potable water pump on while underway. My autopilot used
to go berserk occasionally while underway.

Then I noticed the correlation between a berserk A/P and the pump firing
off. Sure enough the A/P compass was within a foot, although through a
bulkhead, away from the pump.

-- Jim

> Thanks, Kevin, that "splains" a lot. I never switch off my potable water > pump off so ... I used to leave the potable water pump on while underway. My autopilot used to go berserk occasionally while underway. Then I noticed the correlation between a berserk A/P and the pump firing off. Sure enough the A/P compass was within a foot, although through a bulkhead, away from the pump. -- Jim
JW
Joel Wilkins
Thu, Jan 7, 2010 9:01 PM

Snip...
Thanks, Kevin, that "splains" a lot.  I never switch off my potable
water
pump off ...

Like Rich, I never turn my freshwater pump off while
aboard. In fact, as a live aboard, only if I leave the boat for more than a
day or two do I turn it off, so system is constantly at 45 psi. For those of
you with pressure switch activated pumps (and not co-located with your
fluxgate compass) why would you turn it off while aboard? Always looking for
better ways to operate...

Joel Wilkins
m/s Miss Magoo
Columbia 45
S.
Pasadena, FL

Snip... Thanks, Kevin, that "splains" a lot. I never switch off my potable water pump off ... Like Rich, I never turn my freshwater pump off while aboard. In fact, as a live aboard, only if I leave the boat for more than a day or two do I turn it off, so system is constantly at 45 psi. For those of you with pressure switch activated pumps (and not co-located with your fluxgate compass) why would you turn it off while aboard? Always looking for better ways to operate... Joel Wilkins m/s Miss Magoo Columbia 45 S. Pasadena, FL
BM
Bob McLeran
Thu, Jan 7, 2010 9:33 PM

I thought our boat was the only one with that problem! My "to do" list
includes finding a new home for the water pump for that very reason.
Although ours are about 2 feet apart, it still causes the boat to veer
suddenly to port when the pump engages. Our work-around is to turn off
the water pump while underway (when we remember) and use the hand pump
located on the galley sink if we need potable water for anything; we
also keep drinking water in a bottle in the reefer.

If we forget to turn off the water pump circuit, we're usually reminded
at some point when one of us draws water.

<><><><><><><><><><><><>Mozilla Thunderbird<><><><><><><><><><>
Bob McLeran and Judy Young              Manatee Cove Marina
MV Sanderling                            Patrick Air Force Base
DeFever 41 Trawler                      Melbourne, Florida
Blog: http://sanderlingcruise2009.blogspot.com/
Pics: http://tinyurl.com/yjx2vky&  http://tinyurl.com/yhxjvas

On 1/7/2010 3:46 PM, Jim Ague wrote:

I used to leave the potable water pump on while underway. My autopilot
used to go berserk occasionally while underway.

Then I noticed the correlation between a berserk A/P and the pump
firing off. Sure enough the A/P compass was within a foot, although
through a bulkhead, away from the pump.

I thought our boat was the only one with that problem! My "to do" list includes finding a new home for the water pump for that very reason. Although ours are about 2 feet apart, it still causes the boat to veer suddenly to port when the pump engages. Our work-around is to turn off the water pump while underway (when we remember) and use the hand pump located on the galley sink if we need potable water for anything; we also keep drinking water in a bottle in the reefer. If we forget to turn off the water pump circuit, we're usually reminded at some point when one of us draws water. <><><><><><><><><><><><>Mozilla Thunderbird<><><><><><><><><><> Bob McLeran and Judy Young Manatee Cove Marina MV Sanderling Patrick Air Force Base DeFever 41 Trawler Melbourne, Florida Blog: http://sanderlingcruise2009.blogspot.com/ Pics: http://tinyurl.com/yjx2vky& http://tinyurl.com/yhxjvas On 1/7/2010 3:46 PM, Jim Ague wrote: > I used to leave the potable water pump on while underway. My autopilot > used to go berserk occasionally while underway. > > Then I noticed the correlation between a berserk A/P and the pump > firing off. Sure enough the A/P compass was within a foot, although > through a bulkhead, away from the pump.
RT
Richard Tomkinson
Fri, Jan 8, 2010 3:40 AM

so I suppose in theory it would be possile to pump all the boat's

potable water into the bilge via a holed single-wall tubing run inside my
water heat to the engine, out through its radiator cap's relief into the
tubing to the recovery bottle and out its overflow.

I can assure you it is much easier than that. Have an untrained guest cruise
for a week with you.
Richard

so I suppose in theory it would be possile to pump all the boat's > potable water into the bilge via a holed single-wall tubing run inside my > water heat to the engine, out through its radiator cap's relief into the > tubing to the recovery bottle and out its overflow. I can assure you it is much easier than that. Have an untrained guest cruise for a week with you. Richard