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Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement

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ARM boards for low-cost GPSDOs

HM
Hal Murray
Thu, Apr 10, 2014 9:38 PM

Does anybody have a favorite low-cost ARM board?  I'm looking for a simple
Arduino like setup rather than something that runs Linux.  The idea is to get
32 bit counters so a bunch of the recent discussion can be ingnored.

--
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.

Does anybody have a favorite low-cost ARM board? I'm looking for a simple Arduino like setup rather than something that runs Linux. The idea is to get 32 bit counters so a bunch of the recent discussion can be ingnored. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam.
AD
Alberto di Bene
Thu, Apr 10, 2014 10:02 PM

On 4/10/2014 11:38 PM, Hal Murray wrote:

Does anybody have a favorite low-cost ARM board?  I'm looking for a simple
Arduino like setup rather than something that runs Linux.  The idea is to get
32 bit counters so a bunch of the recent discussion can be ingnored.

==========

I can't recommend warmly enough the Discovery board from STM.
It sports a Cortex ARM M4F that can run at 180 MHz, has a native
IEEE compliant floating point core, 2MB flash and 256 kB RAM,
and a wealth of interesting peripherals on chip, TFT display touch
enabled included.  And at 23.52 USD is cheaper than a much
less powerful Arduino...

I implemented on it a fully featured SDR, without using any opsys,
talking directly to the bare metal using the Keil IDE/compiler.
A joy to use. Look here :

http://www.st.com/web/catalog/tools/FM116/SC959/SS1532/LN1848/PF259090

73  Alberto  I2PHD


This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
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On 4/10/2014 11:38 PM, Hal Murray wrote: > Does anybody have a favorite low-cost ARM board? I'm looking for a simple > Arduino like setup rather than something that runs Linux. The idea is to get > 32 bit counters so a bunch of the recent discussion can be ingnored. ========== I can't recommend warmly enough the Discovery board from STM. It sports a Cortex ARM M4F that can run at 180 MHz, has a native IEEE compliant floating point core, 2MB flash and 256 kB RAM, and a wealth of interesting peripherals on chip, TFT display touch enabled included. And at 23.52 USD is cheaper than a much less powerful Arduino... I implemented on it a fully featured SDR, without using any opsys, talking directly to the bare metal using the Keil IDE/compiler. A joy to use. Look here : http://www.st.com/web/catalog/tools/FM116/SC959/SS1532/LN1848/PF259090 73 Alberto I2PHD --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
PS
paul swed
Thu, Apr 10, 2014 10:04 PM

Hal
I sent you a message on the STM arm board and attached the speck sheet.
Its 215KB so it may not come through.
Just look up the STM discovery kit. Its $21 in the US.
Lots of good stuff counters IO and and such
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Thu, Apr 10, 2014 at 5:38 PM, Hal Murray hmurray@megapathdsl.net wrote:

Does anybody have a favorite low-cost ARM board?  I'm looking for a simple
Arduino like setup rather than something that runs Linux.  The idea is to
get
32 bit counters so a bunch of the recent discussion can be ingnored.

--
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.


time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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Hal I sent you a message on the STM arm board and attached the speck sheet. Its 215KB so it may not come through. Just look up the STM discovery kit. Its $21 in the US. Lots of good stuff counters IO and and such Regards Paul WB8TSL On Thu, Apr 10, 2014 at 5:38 PM, Hal Murray <hmurray@megapathdsl.net> wrote: > > Does anybody have a favorite low-cost ARM board? I'm looking for a simple > Arduino like setup rather than something that runs Linux. The idea is to > get > 32 bit counters so a bunch of the recent discussion can be ingnored. > > -- > These are my opinions. I hate spam. > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. >
EC
Edesio Costa e Silva
Thu, Apr 10, 2014 10:04 PM

Take a look at http://www.pjrc.com/teensy/.

Regards,

Edésio

On Thu, Apr 10, 2014 at 02:38:10PM -0700, Hal Murray wrote:

Does anybody have a favorite low-cost ARM board?  I'm looking for a simple
Arduino like setup rather than something that runs Linux.  The idea is to get
32 bit counters so a bunch of the recent discussion can be ingnored.

--
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.

Take a look at http://www.pjrc.com/teensy/. Regards, Edésio On Thu, Apr 10, 2014 at 02:38:10PM -0700, Hal Murray wrote: > > Does anybody have a favorite low-cost ARM board? I'm looking for a simple > Arduino like setup rather than something that runs Linux. The idea is to get > 32 bit counters so a bunch of the recent discussion can be ingnored. > > -- > These are my opinions. I hate spam.
PS
paul swed
Thu, Apr 10, 2014 10:11 PM

Alberto did the job of reposting the information for me.
Thank you.
Hal take a look its impressive for $21.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Thu, Apr 10, 2014 at 6:02 PM, Alberto di Bene dibene@usa.net wrote:

On 4/10/2014 11:38 PM, Hal Murray wrote:

Does anybody have a favorite low-cost ARM board?  I'm looking for a simple

Arduino like setup rather than something that runs Linux.  The idea is to
get
32 bit counters so a bunch of the recent discussion can be ingnored.

==========

I can't recommend warmly enough the Discovery board from STM.
It sports a Cortex ARM M4F that can run at 180 MHz, has a native
IEEE compliant floating point core, 2MB flash and 256 kB RAM,
and a wealth of interesting peripherals on chip, TFT display touch
enabled included.  And at 23.52 USD is cheaper than a much
less powerful Arduino...

I implemented on it a fully featured SDR, without using any opsys,
talking directly to the bare metal using the Keil IDE/compiler.
A joy to use. Look here :

http://www.st.com/web/catalog/tools/FM116/SC959/SS1532/LN1848/PF259090

73  Alberto  I2PHD


This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus
protection is active.
http://www.avast.com


time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Alberto did the job of reposting the information for me. Thank you. Hal take a look its impressive for $21. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Thu, Apr 10, 2014 at 6:02 PM, Alberto di Bene <dibene@usa.net> wrote: > On 4/10/2014 11:38 PM, Hal Murray wrote: > > Does anybody have a favorite low-cost ARM board? I'm looking for a simple >> Arduino like setup rather than something that runs Linux. The idea is to >> get >> 32 bit counters so a bunch of the recent discussion can be ingnored. >> > > ========== > > I can't recommend warmly enough the Discovery board from STM. > It sports a Cortex ARM M4F that can run at 180 MHz, has a native > IEEE compliant floating point core, 2MB flash and 256 kB RAM, > and a wealth of interesting peripherals on chip, TFT display touch > enabled included. And at 23.52 USD is cheaper than a much > less powerful Arduino... > > I implemented on it a fully featured SDR, without using any opsys, > talking directly to the bare metal using the Keil IDE/compiler. > A joy to use. Look here : > > http://www.st.com/web/catalog/tools/FM116/SC959/SS1532/LN1848/PF259090 > > 73 Alberto I2PHD > > > > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. >
MT
Michael Tharp
Thu, Apr 10, 2014 10:33 PM

On 04/10/2014 05:38 PM, Hal Murray wrote:

Does anybody have a favorite low-cost ARM board?  I'm looking for a simple
Arduino like setup rather than something that runs Linux.  The idea is to get
32 bit counters so a bunch of the recent discussion can be ingnored.

Another endorsement for a STM32 Discovery board from me. The F3 and F4
ones have plenty of peripherals to play with and they're cheap as dirt.

For a concrete example of how the kind of PPS capture that's being
discussed would pan out on STM32, here's mine:

https://github.com/mtharp/laureline-firmware/blob/master/src/ppscapture.c

The timers are 16-bit but I extend it to 64 bits in software. When the
timer rolls over I add 65536 to the software variable "mono_epoch". At
both the rollover and at the half-way mark I poll the timer-capture
peripheral to see if it captured a PPS. It's polled twice per period to
ensure that I can disambiguate whether the captured value came from the
current period or the previous one. The result is a 64-bit timestamp
from the free-running clock, and it's completely glitch-free and not
affected by interrupt latency in any way.

The same timer is also used as the base for the UTC clock, which is a
software-disciplined clock like you'd find in any OS kernel. That makes
it easy to compare the phase of the PPS captured to the nearest UTC
second and feed into the PLL. Not as interesting for a GPSDO where you
need to actually steer a hardware oscillator, but useful nonetheless.

On 04/10/2014 05:38 PM, Hal Murray wrote: > > Does anybody have a favorite low-cost ARM board? I'm looking for a simple > Arduino like setup rather than something that runs Linux. The idea is to get > 32 bit counters so a bunch of the recent discussion can be ingnored. > Another endorsement for a STM32 Discovery board from me. The F3 and F4 ones have plenty of peripherals to play with and they're cheap as dirt. For a concrete example of how the kind of PPS capture that's being discussed would pan out on STM32, here's mine: https://github.com/mtharp/laureline-firmware/blob/master/src/ppscapture.c The timers are 16-bit but I extend it to 64 bits in software. When the timer rolls over I add 65536 to the software variable "mono_epoch". At both the rollover and at the half-way mark I poll the timer-capture peripheral to see if it captured a PPS. It's polled twice per period to ensure that I can disambiguate whether the captured value came from the current period or the previous one. The result is a 64-bit timestamp from the free-running clock, and it's completely glitch-free and not affected by interrupt latency in any way. The same timer is also used as the base for the UTC clock, which is a software-disciplined clock like you'd find in any OS kernel. That makes it easy to compare the phase of the PPS captured to the nearest UTC second and feed into the PLL. Not as interesting for a GPSDO where you need to actually steer a hardware oscillator, but useful nonetheless.
D
d0ct0r
Thu, Apr 10, 2014 11:24 PM

The timers are 16-bit but I extend it to 64 bits in software. When the
timer rolls over I add 65536 to the software variable "mono_epoch". At

BTW, its possible to extend timer to 64 bit using special feature of
ST32. Its when one timer (master), controlling the other timer(s)
(slaves). See following app. note, for example:

http://www.st.com/st-web-ui/static/active/en/resource/technical/document/application_note/CD00165509.pdf

Also, the examples which coming with peripheral library helps a lot !

I was using PIC and Freescale before. All my recent project is on ST32.
But instead of Discovery board I would prefer bare board with MCU from
auction site. JUst because its gives me more control. ;-)

--
WBW,

V.P.

> > The timers are 16-bit but I extend it to 64 bits in software. When the > timer rolls over I add 65536 to the software variable "mono_epoch". At BTW, its possible to extend timer to 64 bit using special feature of ST32. Its when one timer (master), controlling the other timer(s) (slaves). See following app. note, for example: http://www.st.com/st-web-ui/static/active/en/resource/technical/document/application_note/CD00165509.pdf Also, the examples which coming with peripheral library helps a lot ! I was using PIC and Freescale before. All my recent project is on ST32. But instead of Discovery board I would prefer bare board with MCU from auction site. JUst because its gives me more control. ;-) -- WBW, V.P.
CA
Chris Albertson
Thu, Apr 10, 2014 11:40 PM

First, the Arduino can count cycles just fine.  Look at the C code I
posted, it is all of about two dozen lines. It is intentionally simplistic
but seem seems to work. This discussion is about how I might be able to
remove about a half dozen lines.  I'd bet you a bunch the ARM would NOT be
simpler.  I would not go with the ARM process just to save having to count
cary-overs.

There is a great advantage to building a GPSDO in an ARM and a REALLY great
advantage to building on with a Beagle Board. Because you could also build
an NTP server on the same platform and time transfer to the NTP server
would be near perfect.  The BB could run a web server too and WiFi stack so
you could control the entire GPSDO/NTP Server with a wireless cell phone or
tablet.  You can remotely log in to your controller using SSH.  It's gross
overkill but the price is only about $50.    The Raspberry Pi is not a
whole loot different.

If you want a simple, low cost ARM development system there are three that
I'd look at.

  1. The "teensy".  cost is $19 and it is the same size as the Arduino "mini"
    http://www.pjrc.com/store/teensy3.html
    Adafruit and Sparkfun also sell this same board.

  2. The new Arduino Due is based on ARM and runs the same software
    environment as the AVR based Arduino.
    but of course is much more powerful and costs more.  Lots of support and
    all your Arduino code will mostly still work.
    http://arduino.cc/en/Main/ArduinoBoardDue

  3. TI sells a "Launch Pad" at a very good price, about $13 and it is VERY
    well supported with training materials, software and so on.  I'm sure TI
    iix taking a loss on these.  They can't be making money at $13  This is a
    great value.
    http://www.ti.com/ww/en/launchpad/launchpads-tivac.html#tabs

On Thu, Apr 10, 2014 at 2:38 PM, Hal Murray hmurray@megapathdsl.net wrote:

Does anybody have a favorite low-cost ARM board?  I'm looking for a simple
Arduino like setup rather than something that runs Linux.  The idea is to
get
32 bit counters so a bunch of the recent discussion can be ingnored.

--
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.


time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

--

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

First, the Arduino can count cycles just fine. Look at the C code I posted, it is all of about two dozen lines. It is intentionally simplistic but seem seems to work. This discussion is about how I might be able to remove about a half dozen lines. I'd bet you a bunch the ARM would NOT be simpler. I would not go with the ARM process just to save having to count cary-overs. There is a great advantage to building a GPSDO in an ARM and a REALLY great advantage to building on with a Beagle Board. Because you could also build an NTP server on the same platform and time transfer to the NTP server would be near perfect. The BB could run a web server too and WiFi stack so you could control the entire GPSDO/NTP Server with a wireless cell phone or tablet. You can remotely log in to your controller using SSH. It's gross overkill but the price is only about $50. The Raspberry Pi is not a whole loot different. If you want a simple, low cost ARM development system there are three that I'd look at. 1) The "teensy". cost is $19 and it is the same size as the Arduino "mini" http://www.pjrc.com/store/teensy3.html Adafruit and Sparkfun also sell this same board. 2) The new Arduino Due is based on ARM and runs the same software environment as the AVR based Arduino. but of course is much more powerful and costs more. Lots of support and all your Arduino code will mostly still work. http://arduino.cc/en/Main/ArduinoBoardDue 3) TI sells a "Launch Pad" at a very good price, about $13 and it is VERY well supported with training materials, software and so on. I'm sure TI iix taking a loss on these. They can't be making money at $13 This is a great value. http://www.ti.com/ww/en/launchpad/launchpads-tivac.html#tabs On Thu, Apr 10, 2014 at 2:38 PM, Hal Murray <hmurray@megapathdsl.net> wrote: > > Does anybody have a favorite low-cost ARM board? I'm looking for a simple > Arduino like setup rather than something that runs Linux. The idea is to > get > 32 bit counters so a bunch of the recent discussion can be ingnored. > > -- > These are my opinions. I hate spam. > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California
CA
Chris Albertson
Fri, Apr 11, 2014 12:11 AM

I'm thinking about good reasons to build a GPSDO using something as big and
powerful as a 32-bit ARM processor.    I think the reason is that you are
not really building a GPSDO but some other device that just happens to have
a GPSDO inside of it.

For example you want to build a laser range finder and you need to measure
time of flight delay.  You'd need a very good clock and while you are at it
why not discipline the clock with GPS.      I could think of some radio
experiments where I would want pairs of receivers with their local
oscillators running in phase but many miles apart, so I'd build a GPSDO
into the radio.    The ARM would support running the GPSDO, the bigger
application and also remote access over the network or Internet.

Today people mostly will build a stand alone GPSDO in a dedicated box and
then connect the 10MHZ output to whatever is needed but now as we have
seen, you can build a GPSDO completely in software, if your project already
has a computer then you can run a GPSDO inside an interrupt handler as a
background task.  Adding GPSDO functionality to an existing product is
almost trivially simple, just $2 in parts and some software if you already
have a CPU and OCXO as part of your system.

Placing the GPSDO inside the product means the gpsdo can run at a frequency
that is more useful and needs no conversion.  So you can have the GPS
control a 23 Mhz crystal if that is what your laser rangefinder needs.  Now
that the cost of a GPSDO has fallen to $3 you can build them into
"everything".  It no longer needs to be a shared device.

I'm thinking about good reasons to build a GPSDO using something as big and powerful as a 32-bit ARM processor. I think the reason is that you are not really building a GPSDO but some other device that just happens to have a GPSDO inside of it. For example you want to build a laser range finder and you need to measure time of flight delay. You'd need a very good clock and while you are at it why not discipline the clock with GPS. I could think of some radio experiments where I would want pairs of receivers with their local oscillators running in phase but many miles apart, so I'd build a GPSDO into the radio. The ARM would support running the GPSDO, the bigger application and also remote access over the network or Internet. Today people mostly will build a stand alone GPSDO in a dedicated box and then connect the 10MHZ output to whatever is needed but now as we have seen, you can build a GPSDO completely in software, if your project already has a computer then you can run a GPSDO inside an interrupt handler as a background task. Adding GPSDO functionality to an existing product is almost trivially simple, just $2 in parts and some software if you already have a CPU and OCXO as part of your system. Placing the GPSDO inside the product means the gpsdo can run at a frequency that is more useful and needs no conversion. So you can have the GPS control a 23 Mhz crystal if that is what your laser rangefinder needs. Now that the cost of a GPSDO has fallen to $3 you can build them into "everything". It no longer needs to be a shared device.
PS
paul swed
Fri, Apr 11, 2014 1:23 AM

Chris
Thats what I am saying the compute power is amazing even with arduinos.
I find it crazy to trip over limitations when this technology is available.
So yes I hope to use the STM board to solve the WWVB BPSK issue. At $21 its
a so what for me $ wise at least. I purchased 3 just because they do appear
pretty handy. The same with the launchpads. Now I went out to the TI site
and they have additional launch pad eval kits. All on nice boards just like
the STM evals.

Hope this helps Hal who started the thread.
I have said enough and on to that old Forth code.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Thu, Apr 10, 2014 at 8:11 PM, Chris Albertson
albertson.chris@gmail.comwrote:

I'm thinking about good reasons to build a GPSDO using something as big and
powerful as a 32-bit ARM processor.    I think the reason is that you are
not really building a GPSDO but some other device that just happens to have
a GPSDO inside of it.

For example you want to build a laser range finder and you need to measure
time of flight delay.  You'd need a very good clock and while you are at it
why not discipline the clock with GPS.      I could think of some radio
experiments where I would want pairs of receivers with their local
oscillators running in phase but many miles apart, so I'd build a GPSDO
into the radio.    The ARM would support running the GPSDO, the bigger
application and also remote access over the network or Internet.

Today people mostly will build a stand alone GPSDO in a dedicated box and
then connect the 10MHZ output to whatever is needed but now as we have
seen, you can build a GPSDO completely in software, if your project already
has a computer then you can run a GPSDO inside an interrupt handler as a
background task.  Adding GPSDO functionality to an existing product is
almost trivially simple, just $2 in parts and some software if you already
have a CPU and OCXO as part of your system.

Placing the GPSDO inside the product means the gpsdo can run at a frequency
that is more useful and needs no conversion.  So you can have the GPS
control a 23 Mhz crystal if that is what your laser rangefinder needs.  Now
that the cost of a GPSDO has fallen to $3 you can build them into
"everything".  It no longer needs to be a shared device.


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Chris Thats what I am saying the compute power is amazing even with arduinos. I find it crazy to trip over limitations when this technology is available. So yes I hope to use the STM board to solve the WWVB BPSK issue. At $21 its a so what for me $ wise at least. I purchased 3 just because they do appear pretty handy. The same with the launchpads. Now I went out to the TI site and they have additional launch pad eval kits. All on nice boards just like the STM evals. Hope this helps Hal who started the thread. I have said enough and on to that old Forth code. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Thu, Apr 10, 2014 at 8:11 PM, Chris Albertson <albertson.chris@gmail.com>wrote: > I'm thinking about good reasons to build a GPSDO using something as big and > powerful as a 32-bit ARM processor. I think the reason is that you are > not really building a GPSDO but some other device that just happens to have > a GPSDO inside of it. > > For example you want to build a laser range finder and you need to measure > time of flight delay. You'd need a very good clock and while you are at it > why not discipline the clock with GPS. I could think of some radio > experiments where I would want pairs of receivers with their local > oscillators running in phase but many miles apart, so I'd build a GPSDO > into the radio. The ARM would support running the GPSDO, the bigger > application and also remote access over the network or Internet. > > Today people mostly will build a stand alone GPSDO in a dedicated box and > then connect the 10MHZ output to whatever is needed but now as we have > seen, you can build a GPSDO completely in software, if your project already > has a computer then you can run a GPSDO inside an interrupt handler as a > background task. Adding GPSDO functionality to an existing product is > almost trivially simple, just $2 in parts and some software if you already > have a CPU and OCXO as part of your system. > > Placing the GPSDO inside the product means the gpsdo can run at a frequency > that is more useful and needs no conversion. So you can have the GPS > control a 23 Mhz crystal if that is what your laser rangefinder needs. Now > that the cost of a GPSDO has fallen to $3 you can build them into > "everything". It no longer needs to be a shared device. > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. >