I am just beginning to explore electronic charting and have enjoyed all the
comments about electronic vs paper charts.

I admit the technology is a bit overwhelming.

I tend to subscribe to the KISS theory.

I do not need to be able to see the rocks and mud.

My current plan is to dedicate a laptop for plotting only.

Can anyone tell me what nav. software will work with the S-57 format vector
charts available for download from NOAA?

Frank
M/V Drifter on the hard in Mobile

-----Original Message-----
Scott Coles asked:
Why are more people not taking advantage of FREE
charts from NOAA....Or are they?

2. The coverage appears to be incomplete at this time.  When will this
   improve?

REPLY
In time NOAA will catch up  with the paper chart coverage.
There are a multitude of issues  involved in compiling the database that
drives the S-57 chart system.
Meanwhile they are doing a pre-launch promotional effort to  generate public
awareness and a market demand for a product they expect to produce.

3. What is the future of this program?  Will other charting software become
   available to read these charts?

In view of the fact s-57 is an international standard endorsed by IMO for
commercial shipping, NOAA has no choice but to develop  the database needed
for producing a full set of S-57 type  vector charts for commercial
shipping.  So yes other software programs will become available.

In the long run, S-57 will become the  new charting standard for all
countries providing charts for ECDIS systems required by law on commercial
ships.

4. One of the 'Pros' of this is obviously the cost.  What are the 'cons'?

REPLY
With vector charts, it is easy for a neophyte  to suppress a data layer
containing crucial information.
Knowing a  feature is possible and actually enabling the feature is two
different things.
Suppose the depth  contours are  suppressed and the route planner forgets to
check for and set the shoal depth alarm.
Now the vessel is taken across the shoal patch at low tide and strikes
bottom or a rock.

Zooming in  is a very natural  inclination when  running close to known
charted hazards.
Unfortunately  chart scale is lost  when you do that.
Chart scale is critical  to  the understanding of chart data.
Chart scale is  decided before an area is surveyed.
Chart scale determines  the spacing of  survey sounding lines, and it
determines which features are actually shown and  which are omitted.

Therefore, if an area was surveyed for an intended chart scale of 1:80,000
only certain  specific details will be included and tithe sounding lines
will be spaced fairly far apart compared to when  the final chart scale
would be 1:20,000

To get an idea of what I mean  find a chart of something where both a
general sailing chart and a detailed chart is available.
Now compare the chart appearance of the same place  contained in both.
Compare how the contour lines look different  and  consider how that might
influence your decision as to where to place a route line.

5. I assume that the NOAA data is the basis for all of the other electronic
   charts (chips or CD's).  True?

REPLY
Yes and no.
NOAA data is stored in many forms.  Paper charts  were originally created in
by physically drawing  line on paper with ink.
The work was meticulous and painstaking. It took a long time.
When complete, checked for accuracy and verified by an independent check,
the chart  was  printed by creating color separations  on film.
These film masters constituted the core data  held for safe keeping by NOAA.

The process of converting such a picture into digital  data  depends on
which format  the electronic chart will be delivered in.
For raster charts the  actual finished print could be scanned in using a
large flat bed scanner.
This was a technique use by both Laser Plot and Maptech in the early days.

For vector charts the current practice is to obtain  the database
information and use it directly.
However, before this database information can be used  an interface program
must be used to convert database fields into a graphic display.
A nav-aid is an object defined by a geographic point and a sub file
describing  what the image will look like on the  screen.
A shore line is a series of  point  defined by lat/long but spaced apart
from each other.
When displayed there is software which  connects the dots into a shore line.
Zooming in or out  determines how many point to include or skip when
tracing the line that connect the dots.
Unfortunately, when you over zoom, a curved line stops looking smooth and
instead  begins to look jagged and consisting of straight lines joining
points.

These are the points actually stored in the database.
For an area surveyed  to a scale of 1:80,000  these points will be far
apart.

In many places this is the only scale of chart  available right now.
When you look at the  areas when S-57 charts are currently available you
will see that it coincides with areas that have been surveyed in great
detail; and  large scale charts ( harbour charts)  are available.  Not much
point in spending time  creating  a database of area where the details are
missing.

NIMA  ( formerly Defense Mapping Agency)  also have a database of charts but
you can't assume that the two agencies will necessarily  share  all this
information
since NIMA is primarily focused on providing military maps and charts.

CHS  in Canada  started developing digital charts for public use long before
NOAA did.
When NDI  was  designated the official  distribution source for digital
they began using  the film masters for the scanner instead of the paper
charts.
The film base  is more stable than paper and less subject to dimensional
distortion over time.

As far as I know NOAA is now doing the same with the charts produced by
Maptech.

Companies  such as C-Map and Navionics rely on manually digitizing  the
paper charts using a plotting tool and annotating key data points using a
keyboard.
This is likely how the errors I found  got made.
At one point C-Map bought a share of NDI but was later compelled to sell
their share  in view  of the conflict of interest this situation posed.
At this time both Navionics and C-MAP  pay Maptech and NDI for the data
they use in creating the latest  product versiosn they offer.
Garmin does not produce very good data for Canadian waters compared to US
water because they declined  to pay NDI for the data.

6. What else are you getting for your money with C-map, Maptech, etc.
   (Assuming that I don't care about the topography of the ocean floor.)

REPLY
When you have a database instead of a bitmap picture; a lot of additional
features can be enabled.
For example, pointing to a marina symbol will bring up the database file
describing the facility, services and  limiting depth of water in the
approach channel.
Call channel, and  even a picture of the approach or an overhead  view of
the place.
This is much like  what you might expect from the Coast Pilot book but is
not limited to just navigational information.
As an example  CHS is already  experimenting with including  advertisements
from commercial establishments; restaurants fuel dock and tackles shops, not
to mention shopping centers,  taxi and  hotels.

These value added features are dependent on the individual  third party
vendors and not all features will be available from all companies.

7. The following was pasted from the NOAA web site.  What does anyone
   think?

Question - Do NOAA ENC.s enhance marine navigation and will they replace the
paper chart completely?

Answer - NOAA ENC.s and RNCs will eventually replace paper charts for
vessels using electronic navigation. NOAA will continue to produce paper
charts for those users who do not choose to use electronic navigation. NOAA
ENC.s and ECS are the greatest advancement in maritime safety since the
introduction of radar to ships.

REPLY
Wishful thinking based on projecting present trends into expected future
developments.
It is also based on the assumption that  the users are knowledgeable and
trained navigators. ( ? valid assumption?? )
It further assumes that  the users of vector charts and ECS  equipment have
been properly trained  in all aspects of navigation using this equipment.

While this is true for commercial mariners holding  USCG tickets, it is not
necessarily true for all  marines who may not have received proper training
in other parts of the world.
In fact last year there was a major kafuffle when it was discovered that a
lot of certificate blanks had been stolen.
In recent times,  it has also become apparent that  not all maritime
academies have  the same high standards for their curriculum.

But what about recreational boaters like ourselves?

In Canada and the US there is training available from  the Power Squadrons,
the UK have the Yacht Master program and  other countries each have
something.
BUT,  very few of these have a comprehensive  program  that really teach
electronic navigation using ECS or ECDIS  equipment.

I am willing to bet most of our list members are self taught when it comes
to using ECS.

So what of the rest of the recreational boaters?  How can  we be assured
these people also understand how to properly use  ECS and e-charts.
Do they even realize the pitfalls you can encounter?  I doubt it!

So, while this technology is  the best development  yet,  it remains to be
seen if it will actually produce the overall benefits  speculated in the
hype.

Cheers

Arild

Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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If anyone lurking is from NIMA or NOAA, I can safely say you will be
heroes with the cruising community if you add grocery stores, Post
Offices, and libraries to the charts.

I'm also trying to get Microsoft to add a grocery store category to
Streets & Trips.  Between Streets & Trips and The CAPN, I can usually
find my way around a new cruising area and Streets and Trips uses my
little Deluo GPS to establish position when I rent a car..

                               Regards.....

Phil Rosch
Old Harbor Consulting
M/V "Curmudgeon" Marine Trader 44 TC
Currently Moored in Fort Pierce, FL

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't
do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away
from
the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream.
Discover." - Mark Twain

Thank you Arild,
Your reply to my post was very enlightening.

We are planning a Great Loop adventure in 2007 and I am starting to think
about what primary method of navigation I will use (paper charts, e-charts
w/ dedicated plotter or e-charts with a PC).  My first inclination is for
the PC approach.  Obviously I will have paper charts on board at least as
back-up.  (I am not looking to re-visit that discussion!)

Do you think that dedicated chart plotters will become obsolete in the
(near) future?  It appears to me that a PC is a valuable tool to have
available in any case, so why not use it for real time navigation as well as
trip planning, e-mail, Internet, etc.

My inclination at this point would be to use Maptech products on a laptop
because of their alliance with NOAA and because they are not trying to sell
me any hardware.

For my local area, region 2, a full blown set would be installed however it
would be tempting to download and use free charts for an area that will be
visited for only a relatively short time.

I assume that Maptech's Offshore Navigator software doesn't read the S-57
charts, so that means that a second nav program would be required.  This
might be loaded on a second PC (for redundancy).

We currently are looking for the proper boat for us so at this time, I have
no particular preference based on existing equipment.  Obviously, if we find
a boat with state of the are electronics (not likely!), that might dictate
which direction I would head.  More likely will be an 80's vintage with 80's
vintage electronics.

What are your thoughts?

Thanks again,

Scott Coles
Two more days till T-fest!!