ks... answers The emails are getting long
Don
The two units work together by a buggy cable from what I have heard so far.
The Ref0 is the master that drives stuff it connects to REF1 that
disciplines REF0.
If GPS goes away or the ref1 it all keeps ticking. This is been teh system
design for about 20 years.
Many of us have the ref1 only and the internal osc is 5 Mhz so thats why
you have seen discussions on multipliers here. Tap the 5 Mhz double it
filter it and buffer it. there seem to be 2 schools of thoughts on the
process. Balanced mixer or Wenzel.
I would have hacked the answer already. But I need to keep my ref1 running
so that it ages in. ASI will refund your money if bad. But only in 30 days.
I do like what I see from the KS-... Can never remember the number.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
HI
Actually there are three different approaches to the “double 5 MHz” question.
Roughly 99.99% of all doubler / tripler OCXO’s out there do the trick with a simple single transistor stage and a tuned tank. Follow it up with a tuned single transistor output amp. Cheap, easy, not very fancy, gets people mad when mentioned. It works plenty good enough. The basic design approach dates back to tube based multipliers done in the 1920’s. Just about any transmitter design textbook from 1930 through 1960 has design charts and tube based examples.
Bob
On Nov 18, 2014, at 4:26 PM, paul swed paulswedb@gmail.com wrote:
Don
The two units work together by a buggy cable from what I have heard so far.
The Ref0 is the master that drives stuff it connects to REF1 that
disciplines REF0.
If GPS goes away or the ref1 it all keeps ticking. This is been teh system
design for about 20 years.
Many of us have the ref1 only and the internal osc is 5 Mhz so thats why
you have seen discussions on multipliers here. Tap the 5 Mhz double it
filter it and buffer it. there seem to be 2 schools of thoughts on the
process. Balanced mixer or Wenzel.
I would have hacked the answer already. But I need to keep my ref1 running
so that it ages in. ASI will refund your money if bad. But only in 30 days.
I do like what I see from the KS-... Can never remember the number.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
I doubled my Austron 1250A from 5 MHz to 10 MHz with 2 NPNs fed in push-pull and output in parallel with a tuned circuit. Before buffering it with an LH0063, I fed the signal through a 10 MHz crystal, purchased at a local surplus electronics store for $0.95. The 2nd harmonic is about 70 dB down.
-Doug, AE6SY
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob Camp
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 3:11 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] ks... answers The emails are getting long
HI
Actually there are three different approaches to the “double 5 MHz” question.
Roughly 99.99% of all doubler / tripler OCXO’s out there do the trick with a simple single transistor stage and a tuned tank. Follow it up with a tuned single transistor output amp. Cheap, easy, not very fancy, gets people mad when mentioned. It works plenty good enough. The basic design approach dates back to tube based multipliers done in the 1920’s. Just about any transmitter design textbook from 1930 through 1960 has design charts and tube based examples.
Bob
On Nov 18, 2014, at 4:26 PM, paul swed paulswedb@gmail.com wrote:
Don
The two units work together by a buggy cable from what I have heard so far.
The Ref0 is the master that drives stuff it connects to REF1 that
disciplines REF0.
If GPS goes away or the ref1 it all keeps ticking. This is been teh
system design for about 20 years.
Many of us have the ref1 only and the internal osc is 5 Mhz so thats
why you have seen discussions on multipliers here. Tap the 5 Mhz
double it filter it and buffer it. there seem to be 2 schools of
thoughts on the process. Balanced mixer or Wenzel.
I would have hacked the answer already. But I need to keep my ref1
running so that it ages in. ASI will refund your money if bad. But only in 30 days.
I do like what I see from the KS-... Can never remember the number.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Hi
Single stage NPN 2N5179 or 2N918 or 2N2222 or … biased to generate a collector current that looks like a “raised cosine” (see your 1952 RF transmitter textbook). Tune the collector to the desired output. Set the Q to something like 10 or so. Linear “class A” stage after that. Tune the collector with another Q 3 to 10 tank. Match it to the load with a PI or a Tee.
Bob
On Nov 18, 2014, at 6:21 PM, Doug Ronald doug@dougronald.com wrote:
I doubled my Austron 1250A from 5 MHz to 10 MHz with 2 NPNs fed in push-pull and output in parallel with a tuned circuit. Before buffering it with an LH0063, I fed the signal through a 10 MHz crystal, purchased at a local surplus electronics store for $0.95. The 2nd harmonic is about 70 dB down.
-Doug, AE6SY
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob Camp
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 3:11 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] ks... answers The emails are getting long
HI
Actually there are three different approaches to the “double 5 MHz” question.
Roughly 99.99% of all doubler / tripler OCXO’s out there do the trick with a simple single transistor stage and a tuned tank. Follow it up with a tuned single transistor output amp. Cheap, easy, not very fancy, gets people mad when mentioned. It works plenty good enough. The basic design approach dates back to tube based multipliers done in the 1920’s. Just about any transmitter design textbook from 1930 through 1960 has design charts and tube based examples.
Bob
On Nov 18, 2014, at 4:26 PM, paul swed paulswedb@gmail.com wrote:
Don
The two units work together by a buggy cable from what I have heard so far.
The Ref0 is the master that drives stuff it connects to REF1 that
disciplines REF0.
If GPS goes away or the ref1 it all keeps ticking. This is been teh
system design for about 20 years.
Many of us have the ref1 only and the internal osc is 5 Mhz so thats
why you have seen discussions on multipliers here. Tap the 5 Mhz
double it filter it and buffer it. there seem to be 2 schools of
thoughts on the process. Balanced mixer or Wenzel.
I would have hacked the answer already. But I need to keep my ref1
running so that it ages in. ASI will refund your money if bad. But only in 30 days.
I do like what I see from the KS-... Can never remember the number.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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and follow the instructions there.
I also use the same method though I am partial to IFR 510 FETs as I recall.
Heck it just works and has for about 10 years.
But that said this is Time-nuts and folks get pretty touchy about lots of
things.
So though these methods work I do wonder about noise and such.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 7:30 PM, Bob Camp kb8tq@n1k.org wrote:
Hi
Single stage NPN 2N5179 or 2N918 or 2N2222 or … biased to generate a
collector current that looks like a “raised cosine” (see your 1952 RF
transmitter textbook). Tune the collector to the desired output. Set the Q
to something like 10 or so. Linear “class A” stage after that. Tune the
collector with another Q 3 to 10 tank. Match it to the load with a PI or a
Tee.
Bob
On Nov 18, 2014, at 6:21 PM, Doug Ronald doug@dougronald.com wrote:
I doubled my Austron 1250A from 5 MHz to 10 MHz with 2 NPNs fed in
push-pull and output in parallel with a tuned circuit. Before buffering it
with an LH0063, I fed the signal through a 10 MHz crystal, purchased at a
local surplus electronics store for $0.95. The 2nd harmonic is about 70 dB
down.
-Doug, AE6SY
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Camp
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 3:11 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] ks... answers The emails are getting long
HI
Actually there are three different approaches to the “double 5 MHz”
question.
Roughly 99.99% of all doubler / tripler OCXO’s out there do the trick
with a simple single transistor stage and a tuned tank. Follow it up with
a tuned single transistor output amp. Cheap, easy, not very fancy, gets
people mad when mentioned. It works plenty good enough. The basic design
approach dates back to tube based multipliers done in the 1920’s. Just
about any transmitter design textbook from 1930 through 1960 has design
charts and tube based examples.
Bob
On Nov 18, 2014, at 4:26 PM, paul swed paulswedb@gmail.com wrote:
Don
The two units work together by a buggy cable from what I have heard so
far.
The Ref0 is the master that drives stuff it connects to REF1 that
disciplines REF0.
If GPS goes away or the ref1 it all keeps ticking. This is been teh
system design for about 20 years.
Many of us have the ref1 only and the internal osc is 5 Mhz so thats
why you have seen discussions on multipliers here. Tap the 5 Mhz
double it filter it and buffer it. there seem to be 2 schools of
thoughts on the process. Balanced mixer or Wenzel.
I would have hacked the answer already. But I need to keep my ref1
running so that it ages in. ASI will refund your money if bad. But only
in 30 days.
I do like what I see from the KS-... Can never remember the number.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
and follow the instructions there.
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To unsubscribe, go to
and follow the instructions there.
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Hi
Done with some care, they have little or no phase noise impact on a good 5 MHz oscillator. The OCXO manufacturers would do something else if it did. Rip open some oscillators and take a look. It’s as good a use as any for that pile of dead parts sitting under everybody’s bench.
Bob
On Nov 18, 2014, at 7:51 PM, paul swed paulswedb@gmail.com wrote:
I also use the same method though I am partial to IFR 510 FETs as I recall.
Heck it just works and has for about 10 years.
But that said this is Time-nuts and folks get pretty touchy about lots of
things.
So though these methods work I do wonder about noise and such.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 7:30 PM, Bob Camp kb8tq@n1k.org wrote:
Hi
Single stage NPN 2N5179 or 2N918 or 2N2222 or … biased to generate a
collector current that looks like a “raised cosine” (see your 1952 RF
transmitter textbook). Tune the collector to the desired output. Set the Q
to something like 10 or so. Linear “class A” stage after that. Tune the
collector with another Q 3 to 10 tank. Match it to the load with a PI or a
Tee.
Bob
On Nov 18, 2014, at 6:21 PM, Doug Ronald doug@dougronald.com wrote:
I doubled my Austron 1250A from 5 MHz to 10 MHz with 2 NPNs fed in
push-pull and output in parallel with a tuned circuit. Before buffering it
with an LH0063, I fed the signal through a 10 MHz crystal, purchased at a
local surplus electronics store for $0.95. The 2nd harmonic is about 70 dB
down.
-Doug, AE6SY
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Camp
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 3:11 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] ks... answers The emails are getting long
HI
Actually there are three different approaches to the “double 5 MHz”
question.
Roughly 99.99% of all doubler / tripler OCXO’s out there do the trick
with a simple single transistor stage and a tuned tank. Follow it up with
a tuned single transistor output amp. Cheap, easy, not very fancy, gets
people mad when mentioned. It works plenty good enough. The basic design
approach dates back to tube based multipliers done in the 1920’s. Just
about any transmitter design textbook from 1930 through 1960 has design
charts and tube based examples.
Bob
On Nov 18, 2014, at 4:26 PM, paul swed paulswedb@gmail.com wrote:
Don
The two units work together by a buggy cable from what I have heard so
far.
The Ref0 is the master that drives stuff it connects to REF1 that
disciplines REF0.
If GPS goes away or the ref1 it all keeps ticking. This is been teh
system design for about 20 years.
Many of us have the ref1 only and the internal osc is 5 Mhz so thats
why you have seen discussions on multipliers here. Tap the 5 Mhz
double it filter it and buffer it. there seem to be 2 schools of
thoughts on the process. Balanced mixer or Wenzel.
I would have hacked the answer already. But I need to keep my ref1
running so that it ages in. ASI will refund your money if bad. But only
in 30 days.
I do like what I see from the KS-... Can never remember the number.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
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and follow the instructions there.
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To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Hi,
The low Q values has the benefit of being very phase stable.
Low Q dips can be put in to null out particular overtones, LCR-series
loading the signal to ground at suitable place. Also very traditional
1930-1950 era.
Cheers,
Magnus
On 11/19/2014 01:30 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
Single stage NPN 2N5179 or 2N918 or 2N2222 or … biased to generate a collector current that looks like a “raised cosine” (see your 1952 RF transmitter textbook). Tune the collector to the desired output. Set the Q to something like 10 or so. Linear “class A” stage after that. Tune the collector with another Q 3 to 10 tank. Match it to the load with a PI or a Tee.
Bob
On Nov 18, 2014, at 6:21 PM, Doug Ronald doug@dougronald.com wrote:
I doubled my Austron 1250A from 5 MHz to 10 MHz with 2 NPNs fed in push-pull and output in parallel with a tuned circuit. Before buffering it with an LH0063, I fed the signal through a 10 MHz crystal, purchased at a local surplus electronics store for $0.95. The 2nd harmonic is about 70 dB down.
-Doug, AE6SY
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob Camp
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 3:11 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] ks... answers The emails are getting long
HI
Actually there are three different approaches to the “double 5 MHz” question.
Roughly 99.99% of all doubler / tripler OCXO’s out there do the trick with a simple single transistor stage and a tuned tank. Follow it up with a tuned single transistor output amp. Cheap, easy, not very fancy, gets people mad when mentioned. It works plenty good enough. The basic design approach dates back to tube based multipliers done in the 1920’s. Just about any transmitter design textbook from 1930 through 1960 has design charts and tube based examples.
Bob
On Nov 18, 2014, at 4:26 PM, paul swed paulswedb@gmail.com wrote:
Don
The two units work together by a buggy cable from what I have heard so far.
The Ref0 is the master that drives stuff it connects to REF1 that
disciplines REF0.
If GPS goes away or the ref1 it all keeps ticking. This is been teh
system design for about 20 years.
Many of us have the ref1 only and the internal osc is 5 Mhz so thats
why you have seen discussions on multipliers here. Tap the 5 Mhz
double it filter it and buffer it. there seem to be 2 schools of
thoughts on the process. Balanced mixer or Wenzel.
I would have hacked the answer already. But I need to keep my ref1
running so that it ages in. ASI will refund your money if bad. But only in 30 days.
I do like what I see from the KS-... Can never remember the number.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
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To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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and follow the instructions there.
Hi
For the limited temperature swings that most labs have, and the sort of ADEV that the OCXO has, a Q up to 10 can be tolerated pretty well. Keeping the parts count down to two to four coils and a few capacitors lets you do it without a lot of complex design tools. They did it with charts and slide rules back in the 1940’s. You can do it with a few clicks on a web based calculator app these days.
Bob
On Nov 18, 2014, at 8:10 PM, Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote:
Hi,
The low Q values has the benefit of being very phase stable.
Low Q dips can be put in to null out particular overtones, LCR-series loading the signal to ground at suitable place. Also very traditional 1930-1950 era.
Cheers,
Magnus
On 11/19/2014 01:30 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
Single stage NPN 2N5179 or 2N918 or 2N2222 or … biased to generate a collector current that looks like a “raised cosine” (see your 1952 RF transmitter textbook). Tune the collector to the desired output. Set the Q to something like 10 or so. Linear “class A” stage after that. Tune the collector with another Q 3 to 10 tank. Match it to the load with a PI or a Tee.
Bob
On Nov 18, 2014, at 6:21 PM, Doug Ronald doug@dougronald.com wrote:
I doubled my Austron 1250A from 5 MHz to 10 MHz with 2 NPNs fed in push-pull and output in parallel with a tuned circuit. Before buffering it with an LH0063, I fed the signal through a 10 MHz crystal, purchased at a local surplus electronics store for $0.95. The 2nd harmonic is about 70 dB down.
-Doug, AE6SY
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob Camp
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 3:11 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] ks... answers The emails are getting long
HI
Actually there are three different approaches to the “double 5 MHz” question.
Roughly 99.99% of all doubler / tripler OCXO’s out there do the trick with a simple single transistor stage and a tuned tank. Follow it up with a tuned single transistor output amp. Cheap, easy, not very fancy, gets people mad when mentioned. It works plenty good enough. The basic design approach dates back to tube based multipliers done in the 1920’s. Just about any transmitter design textbook from 1930 through 1960 has design charts and tube based examples.
Bob
On Nov 18, 2014, at 4:26 PM, paul swed paulswedb@gmail.com wrote:
Don
The two units work together by a buggy cable from what I have heard so far.
The Ref0 is the master that drives stuff it connects to REF1 that
disciplines REF0.
If GPS goes away or the ref1 it all keeps ticking. This is been teh
system design for about 20 years.
Many of us have the ref1 only and the internal osc is 5 Mhz so thats
why you have seen discussions on multipliers here. Tap the 5 Mhz
double it filter it and buffer it. there seem to be 2 schools of
thoughts on the process. Balanced mixer or Wenzel.
I would have hacked the answer already. But I need to keep my ref1
running so that it ages in. ASI will refund your money if bad. But only in 30 days.
I do like what I see from the KS-... Can never remember the number.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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Indeed. I was just pointing out that high-Q approaches might not always
works as you would think, but there is a way around it if you need.
Cheers,
Magnus
On 11/19/2014 02:17 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
For the limited temperature swings that most labs have, and the sort of ADEV that the OCXO has, a Q up to 10 can be tolerated pretty well. Keeping the parts count down to two to four coils and a few capacitors lets you do it without a lot of complex design tools. They did it with charts and slide rules back in the 1940’s. You can do it with a few clicks on a web based calculator app these days.
Bob
On Nov 18, 2014, at 8:10 PM, Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote:
Hi,
The low Q values has the benefit of being very phase stable.
Low Q dips can be put in to null out particular overtones, LCR-series loading the signal to ground at suitable place. Also very traditional 1930-1950 era.
Cheers,
Magnus
On 11/19/2014 01:30 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
Single stage NPN 2N5179 or 2N918 or 2N2222 or … biased to generate a collector current that looks like a “raised cosine” (see your 1952 RF transmitter textbook). Tune the collector to the desired output. Set the Q to something like 10 or so. Linear “class A” stage after that. Tune the collector with another Q 3 to 10 tank. Match it to the load with a PI or a Tee.
Bob
On Nov 18, 2014, at 6:21 PM, Doug Ronald doug@dougronald.com wrote:
I doubled my Austron 1250A from 5 MHz to 10 MHz with 2 NPNs fed in push-pull and output in parallel with a tuned circuit. Before buffering it with an LH0063, I fed the signal through a 10 MHz crystal, purchased at a local surplus electronics store for $0.95. The 2nd harmonic is about 70 dB down.
-Doug, AE6SY
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob Camp
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 3:11 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] ks... answers The emails are getting long
HI
Actually there are three different approaches to the “double 5 MHz” question.
Roughly 99.99% of all doubler / tripler OCXO’s out there do the trick with a simple single transistor stage and a tuned tank. Follow it up with a tuned single transistor output amp. Cheap, easy, not very fancy, gets people mad when mentioned. It works plenty good enough. The basic design approach dates back to tube based multipliers done in the 1920’s. Just about any transmitter design textbook from 1930 through 1960 has design charts and tube based examples.
Bob
On Nov 18, 2014, at 4:26 PM, paul swed paulswedb@gmail.com wrote:
Don
The two units work together by a buggy cable from what I have heard so far.
The Ref0 is the master that drives stuff it connects to REF1 that
disciplines REF0.
If GPS goes away or the ref1 it all keeps ticking. This is been teh
system design for about 20 years.
Many of us have the ref1 only and the internal osc is 5 Mhz so thats
why you have seen discussions on multipliers here. Tap the 5 Mhz
double it filter it and buffer it. there seem to be 2 schools of
thoughts on the process. Balanced mixer or Wenzel.
I would have hacked the answer already. But I need to keep my ref1
running so that it ages in. ASI will refund your money if bad. But only in 30 days.
I do like what I see from the KS-... Can never remember the number.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
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Hi
Yes Bob is back on his silly “don’t go overboard” rant ….
We often get excited about things that matter at the 1x10^-15 level when looking at what is a 1x10^-12 level problem. One good example is distribution amplifiers. Another are things like multipliers. What ever horrid thing they are doing in the REF-0 box to get 10 MHz, it works reasonably well from an ADEV standpoint past 10 seconds. They made a decision that what ever it is was good enough for their needs. Past 10 seconds it’s as good as anything you could do compared to the 5 MHz source it’s self. At 1 second, it degrades the 5 MHz slightly. Phase noise wise, it’s utter garbage anyplace you look. It’s not as bad as a telecom Rb, but it’s certainly in that league.
Keeping a goal in mind is a really good idea on any project. Coming up with a “everything for everybody” solution is wonderful. HP could not afford to do that at a > $50K sell price on a 5071A. Tradeoff against a specific target is the realistic way to do even a TimeNut effort. ADEV past 1 second does not require -170 dbc / Hz phase noise at a 100 Hz offset from carrier.
High Q is indeed an issue, so are bandpass as compared to lowpass filters. Bandwidth does matter. Stable parts (no weird ferrite) are part of the proper approach. What ever you do, it must be done with thought and with care. You also need to test the result. The effort for any of this needs to go into the little things (like testing) rather than into this or that magic circuit. Magic circuit or not, you still need to verify the result ….
Bob
On Nov 18, 2014, at 8:26 PM, Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote:
Indeed. I was just pointing out that high-Q approaches might not always works as you would think, but there is a way around it if you need.
Cheers,
Magnus
On 11/19/2014 02:17 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
For the limited temperature swings that most labs have, and the sort of ADEV that the OCXO has, a Q up to 10 can be tolerated pretty well. Keeping the parts count down to two to four coils and a few capacitors lets you do it without a lot of complex design tools. They did it with charts and slide rules back in the 1940’s. You can do it with a few clicks on a web based calculator app these days.
Bob
On Nov 18, 2014, at 8:10 PM, Magnus Danielson magnus@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote:
Hi,
The low Q values has the benefit of being very phase stable.
Low Q dips can be put in to null out particular overtones, LCR-series loading the signal to ground at suitable place. Also very traditional 1930-1950 era.
Cheers,
Magnus
On 11/19/2014 01:30 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
Single stage NPN 2N5179 or 2N918 or 2N2222 or … biased to generate a collector current that looks like a “raised cosine” (see your 1952 RF transmitter textbook). Tune the collector to the desired output. Set the Q to something like 10 or so. Linear “class A” stage after that. Tune the collector with another Q 3 to 10 tank. Match it to the load with a PI or a Tee.
Bob
On Nov 18, 2014, at 6:21 PM, Doug Ronald doug@dougronald.com wrote:
I doubled my Austron 1250A from 5 MHz to 10 MHz with 2 NPNs fed in push-pull and output in parallel with a tuned circuit. Before buffering it with an LH0063, I fed the signal through a 10 MHz crystal, purchased at a local surplus electronics store for $0.95. The 2nd harmonic is about 70 dB down.
-Doug, AE6SY
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob Camp
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 3:11 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] ks... answers The emails are getting long
HI
Actually there are three different approaches to the “double 5 MHz” question.
Roughly 99.99% of all doubler / tripler OCXO’s out there do the trick with a simple single transistor stage and a tuned tank. Follow it up with a tuned single transistor output amp. Cheap, easy, not very fancy, gets people mad when mentioned. It works plenty good enough. The basic design approach dates back to tube based multipliers done in the 1920’s. Just about any transmitter design textbook from 1930 through 1960 has design charts and tube based examples.
Bob
On Nov 18, 2014, at 4:26 PM, paul swed paulswedb@gmail.com wrote:
Don
The two units work together by a buggy cable from what I have heard so far.
The Ref0 is the master that drives stuff it connects to REF1 that
disciplines REF0.
If GPS goes away or the ref1 it all keeps ticking. This is been teh
system design for about 20 years.
Many of us have the ref1 only and the internal osc is 5 Mhz so thats
why you have seen discussions on multipliers here. Tap the 5 Mhz
double it filter it and buffer it. there seem to be 2 schools of
thoughts on the process. Balanced mixer or Wenzel.
I would have hacked the answer already. But I need to keep my ref1
running so that it ages in. ASI will refund your money if bad. But only in 30 days.
I do like what I see from the KS-... Can never remember the number.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
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Hi Doug -
Wow. Wonder how many on here remember or know about National's "Damn Fast" line, HI. I used them all the time, and, still have a few. 73 - Mike
Mike B. Feher, EOZ Inc.
89 Arnold Blvd.
Howell, NJ, 07731
732-886-5960 office
908-902-3831 cell
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Doug Ronald
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 6:21 PM
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] ks... answers The emails are getting long
Importance: Low
I doubled my Austron 1250A from 5 MHz to 10 MHz with 2 NPNs fed in push-pull and output in parallel with a tuned circuit. Before buffering it with an LH0063, I fed the signal through a 10 MHz crystal, purchased at a local surplus electronics store for $0.95. The 2nd harmonic is about 70 dB down.
-Doug, AE6SY
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob Camp
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 3:11 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] ks... answers The emails are getting long
HI
Actually there are three different approaches to the “double 5 MHz” question.
Roughly 99.99% of all doubler / tripler OCXO’s out there do the trick with a simple single transistor stage and a tuned tank. Follow it up with a tuned single transistor output amp. Cheap, easy, not very fancy, gets people mad when mentioned. It works plenty good enough. The basic design approach dates back to tube based multipliers done in the 1920’s. Just about any transmitter design textbook from 1930 through 1960 has design charts and tube based examples.
Bob
On Nov 18, 2014, at 4:26 PM, paul swed paulswedb@gmail.com wrote:
Don
The two units work together by a buggy cable from what I have heard so far.
The Ref0 is the master that drives stuff it connects to REF1 that
disciplines REF0.
If GPS goes away or the ref1 it all keeps ticking. This is been teh
system design for about 20 years.
Many of us have the ref1 only and the internal osc is 5 Mhz so thats
why you have seen discussions on multipliers here. Tap the 5 Mhz
double it filter it and buffer it. there seem to be 2 schools of
thoughts on the process. Balanced mixer or Wenzel.
I would have hacked the answer already. But I need to keep my ref1
running so that it ages in. ASI will refund your money if bad. But only in 30 days.
I do like what I see from the KS-... Can never remember the number.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
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Hi
Since they were designed to be used inside the feedback loop of an op-amp, they may not be the best thing to use “stand alone”. Of course if they are free, it’s hard to beat the price.
Bob
On Nov 19, 2014, at 4:42 PM, Mike Feher mfeher@eozinc.com wrote:
Hi Doug -
Wow. Wonder how many on here remember or know about National's "Damn Fast" line, HI. I used them all the time, and, still have a few. 73 - Mike
Mike B. Feher, EOZ Inc.
89 Arnold Blvd.
Howell, NJ, 07731
732-886-5960 office
908-902-3831 cell
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Doug Ronald
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 6:21 PM
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] ks... answers The emails are getting long
Importance: Low
I doubled my Austron 1250A from 5 MHz to 10 MHz with 2 NPNs fed in push-pull and output in parallel with a tuned circuit. Before buffering it with an LH0063, I fed the signal through a 10 MHz crystal, purchased at a local surplus electronics store for $0.95. The 2nd harmonic is about 70 dB down.
-Doug, AE6SY
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob Camp
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 3:11 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] ks... answers The emails are getting long
HI
Actually there are three different approaches to the “double 5 MHz” question.
Roughly 99.99% of all doubler / tripler OCXO’s out there do the trick with a simple single transistor stage and a tuned tank. Follow it up with a tuned single transistor output amp. Cheap, easy, not very fancy, gets people mad when mentioned. It works plenty good enough. The basic design approach dates back to tube based multipliers done in the 1920’s. Just about any transmitter design textbook from 1930 through 1960 has design charts and tube based examples.
Bob
On Nov 18, 2014, at 4:26 PM, paul swed paulswedb@gmail.com wrote:
Don
The two units work together by a buggy cable from what I have heard so far.
The Ref0 is the master that drives stuff it connects to REF1 that
disciplines REF0.
If GPS goes away or the ref1 it all keeps ticking. This is been teh
system design for about 20 years.
Many of us have the ref1 only and the internal osc is 5 Mhz so thats
why you have seen discussions on multipliers here. Tap the 5 Mhz
double it filter it and buffer it. there seem to be 2 schools of
thoughts on the process. Balanced mixer or Wenzel.
I would have hacked the answer already. But I need to keep my ref1
running so that it ages in. ASI will refund your money if bad. But only in 30 days.
I do like what I see from the KS-... Can never remember the number.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
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I remember the "Fast and Damn Fast Buffer Amp" data sheet. LH0036? I may
not be remembering the correct part number. I used to have a copy of
that data sheet, as well as another that was labeled "DC to Daylight" on
the data sheet.
DaveD
On 11/19/2014 2:42 PM, Mike Feher wrote:
Hi Doug -
Wow. Wonder how many on here remember or know about National's "Damn Fast" line, HI. I used them all the time, and, still have a few. 73 - Mike
Mike B. Feher, EOZ Inc.
89 Arnold Blvd.
Howell, NJ, 07731
732-886-5960 office
908-902-3831 cell
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Doug Ronald
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 6:21 PM
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] ks... answers The emails are getting long
Importance: Low
I doubled my Austron 1250A from 5 MHz to 10 MHz with 2 NPNs fed in push-pull and output in parallel with a tuned circuit. Before buffering it with an LH0063, I fed the signal through a 10 MHz crystal, purchased at a local surplus electronics store for $0.95. The 2nd harmonic is about 70 dB down.
-Doug, AE6SY
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob Camp
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 3:11 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] ks... answers The emails are getting long
HI
Actually there are three different approaches to the “double 5 MHz” question.
Roughly 99.99% of all doubler / tripler OCXO’s out there do the trick with a simple single transistor stage and a tuned tank. Follow it up with a tuned single transistor output amp. Cheap, easy, not very fancy, gets people mad when mentioned. It works plenty good enough. The basic design approach dates back to tube based multipliers done in the 1920’s. Just about any transmitter design textbook from 1930 through 1960 has design charts and tube based examples.
Bob
On Nov 18, 2014, at 4:26 PM, paul swed paulswedb@gmail.com wrote:
Don
The two units work together by a buggy cable from what I have heard so far.
The Ref0 is the master that drives stuff it connects to REF1 that
disciplines REF0.
If GPS goes away or the ref1 it all keeps ticking. This is been teh
system design for about 20 years.
Many of us have the ref1 only and the internal osc is 5 Mhz so thats
why you have seen discussions on multipliers here. Tap the 5 Mhz
double it filter it and buffer it. there seem to be 2 schools of
thoughts on the process. Balanced mixer or Wenzel.
I would have hacked the answer already. But I need to keep my ref1
running so that it ages in. ASI will refund your money if bad. But only in 30 days.
I do like what I see from the KS-... Can never remember the number.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
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I think those devices were in the same databook that had a page in the back
of the book, containing only the text
"This page is as blank as a salesman's memory"
The person who did the final editing on that issue had a rare sense of
humor.
Dave M
Dave Daniel wrote:
I remember the "Fast and Damn Fast Buffer Amp" data sheet. LH0036? I
may not be remembering the correct part number. I used to have a copy of
that data sheet, as well as another that was labeled "DC to Daylight"
on the data sheet.
DaveD
On 11/19/2014 2:42 PM, Mike Feher wrote:
Hi Doug -
Wow. Wonder how many on here remember or know about National's "Damn
Fast" line, HI. I used them all the time, and, still have a few. 73
- Mike Mike B. Feher, EOZ Inc.
89 Arnold Blvd.
Howell, NJ, 07731
732-886-5960 office
908-902-3831 cell
On 11/19/14, 3:59 PM, Dave Daniel wrote:
I remember the "Fast and Damn Fast Buffer Amp" data sheet. LH0036? I may
not be remembering the correct part number. I used to have a copy of
that data sheet, as well as another that was labeled "DC to Daylight" on
the data sheet.
DaveD
On 11/19/2014 2:42 PM, Mike Feher wrote:
Hi Doug -
Wow. Wonder how many on here remember or know about National's "Damn
Fast" line, HI. I used them all the time, and, still have a few. 73 -
Mike
In the 1984 databook (Blue cover with the yellowing fragile newsprint
pages) and in the 1975 databook (yellow and green cover, nice quality
paper). LH0033 and LH0063 are the Fast and Damn Fast buffer amplifiers.
In this context the data sheet says 6000V/microsecond. With +/- 10V
into a 50 ohm load (although you only get 2400 V/us there)
Last two pages in the 84 book are just blank. Last page in the 75 book
is a description of MIL-STD-883B
Interesting parts.. They aren't kidding when they say you need good
power supply bypassing and decoupling.(a comment that is in the 84 book
but not the 75 version) I'm trying to remember what I was using them
for: driving a YIG tuning coil in a phase locked loop, I think, but it
might have been driving a fast RF switch.
Interesting parts back then.. Does anyone still make or use a LM746
"chroma demodulator" (other than as a replacement part) or any of the
other very purpose specific parts for parts of a TV? (like LM1845 signal
processing, etc.)
I know I have some numbers of chroma demod chips as I recall. Picked up in
a flea market special along with other more useful chips.
I absolutely have the LH033 buffers. Fet input and like lots of power. Have
used them as frequency buffers.
Super easy to use. Real chips
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 9:00 PM, Jim Lux jimlux@earthlink.net wrote:
On 11/19/14, 3:59 PM, Dave Daniel wrote:
I remember the "Fast and Damn Fast Buffer Amp" data sheet. LH0036? I may
not be remembering the correct part number. I used to have a copy of
that data sheet, as well as another that was labeled "DC to Daylight" on
the data sheet.
DaveD
On 11/19/2014 2:42 PM, Mike Feher wrote:
Hi Doug -
Wow. Wonder how many on here remember or know about National's "Damn
Fast" line, HI. I used them all the time, and, still have a few. 73 -
Mike
In the 1984 databook (Blue cover with the yellowing fragile newsprint
pages) and in the 1975 databook (yellow and green cover, nice quality
paper). LH0033 and LH0063 are the Fast and Damn Fast buffer amplifiers. In
this context the data sheet says 6000V/microsecond. With +/- 10V into a 50
ohm load (although you only get 2400 V/us there)
Last two pages in the 84 book are just blank. Last page in the 75 book is
a description of MIL-STD-883B
Interesting parts.. They aren't kidding when they say you need good power
supply bypassing and decoupling.(a comment that is in the 84 book but not
the 75 version) I'm trying to remember what I was using them for: driving a
YIG tuning coil in a phase locked loop, I think, but it might have been
driving a fast RF switch.
Interesting parts back then.. Does anyone still make or use a LM746
"chroma demodulator" (other than as a replacement part) or any of the other
very purpose specific parts for parts of a TV? (like LM1845 signal
processing, etc.)
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
My fonts are going amuck
On Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 9:09 PM, paul swed paulswedb@gmail.com wrote:
I know I have some numbers of chroma demod chips as I recall. Picked up in
a flea market special along with other more useful chips.
I absolutely have the LH033 buffers. Fet input and like lots of power.
Have used them as frequency buffers.
Super easy to use. Real chips
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 9:00 PM, Jim Lux jimlux@earthlink.net wrote:
On 11/19/14, 3:59 PM, Dave Daniel wrote:
I remember the "Fast and Damn Fast Buffer Amp" data sheet. LH0036? I may
not be remembering the correct part number. I used to have a copy of
that data sheet, as well as another that was labeled "DC to Daylight" on
the data sheet.
DaveD
On 11/19/2014 2:42 PM, Mike Feher wrote:
Hi Doug -
Wow. Wonder how many on here remember or know about National's "Damn
Fast" line, HI. I used them all the time, and, still have a few. 73 -
Mike
In the 1984 databook (Blue cover with the yellowing fragile newsprint
pages) and in the 1975 databook (yellow and green cover, nice quality
paper). LH0033 and LH0063 are the Fast and Damn Fast buffer amplifiers. In
this context the data sheet says 6000V/microsecond. With +/- 10V into a 50
ohm load (although you only get 2400 V/us there)
Last two pages in the 84 book are just blank. Last page in the 75 book is
a description of MIL-STD-883B
Interesting parts.. They aren't kidding when they say you need good power
supply bypassing and decoupling.(a comment that is in the 84 book but not
the 75 version) I'm trying to remember what I was using them for: driving a
YIG tuning coil in a phase locked loop, I think, but it might have been
driving a fast RF switch.
Interesting parts back then.. Does anyone still make or use a LM746
"chroma demodulator" (other than as a replacement part) or any of the other
very purpose specific parts for parts of a TV? (like LM1845 signal
processing, etc.)
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Hi
As I recall, the whole LH series was a multi chip rather than monolithic IC approach. Even back in the day, that made them expensive parts. There are other parts that make fine 10 MHz buffers that only cost a dime.
Bob
On Nov 19, 2014, at 9:00 PM, Jim Lux jimlux@earthlink.net wrote:
On 11/19/14, 3:59 PM, Dave Daniel wrote:
I remember the "Fast and Damn Fast Buffer Amp" data sheet. LH0036? I may
not be remembering the correct part number. I used to have a copy of
that data sheet, as well as another that was labeled "DC to Daylight" on
the data sheet.
DaveD
On 11/19/2014 2:42 PM, Mike Feher wrote:
Hi Doug -
Wow. Wonder how many on here remember or know about National's "Damn
Fast" line, HI. I used them all the time, and, still have a few. 73 -
Mike
In the 1984 databook (Blue cover with the yellowing fragile newsprint pages) and in the 1975 databook (yellow and green cover, nice quality paper). LH0033 and LH0063 are the Fast and Damn Fast buffer amplifiers. In this context the data sheet says 6000V/microsecond. With +/- 10V into a 50 ohm load (although you only get 2400 V/us there)
Last two pages in the 84 book are just blank. Last page in the 75 book is a description of MIL-STD-883B
Interesting parts.. They aren't kidding when they say you need good power supply bypassing and decoupling.(a comment that is in the 84 book but not the 75 version) I'm trying to remember what I was using them for: driving a YIG tuning coil in a phase locked loop, I think, but it might have been driving a fast RF switch.
Interesting parts back then.. Does anyone still make or use a LM746 "chroma demodulator" (other than as a replacement part) or any of the other very purpose specific parts for parts of a TV? (like LM1845 signal processing, etc.)
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Am 20.11.2014 um 13:04 schrieb Bob Camp:
Hi
As I recall, the whole LH series was a multi chip rather than monolithic IC approach. Even back in the day, that made them expensive parts. There are other parts that make fine 10 MHz buffers that only cost a dime.
We had them in our ultrasonics systems for material testing. They were
NOT well-behaved.
Among others, vastly different rise & fall times and Tpd.
They were gone as soon as Comlinear presented the first current feedback
amplifiers.
regards, Gerhard
On 11/20/14, 4:04 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
As I recall, the whole LH series was a multi chip rather than
monolithic IC approach. Even back in the day, that made them
expensive parts. There are other parts that make fine 10 MHz buffers
that only cost a dime.
Bob
Isn't that the significance of the LH.. Linear Hybrid vs LM - Linear
Monolithic
I don't recall seeing many single parts in the 80s for a dime that could
drive a big inductive load at tens of MHz.
Today, I think that would still be a challenge, but certainly, we've got
a lot more alternatives available.
On Nov 19, 2014, at 9:00 PM, Jim Lux jimlux@earthlink.net wrote:
Interesting parts.. They aren't kidding when they say you need good
power supply bypassing and decoupling.(a comment that is in the 84
book but not the 75 version) I'm trying to remember what I was
using them for: driving a YIG tuning coil in a phase locked loop, I
think, but it might have been driving a fast RF switch.