Troller Yachts?
No, that's not a typo. :)
Is anyone familiar with the "Troller Yacht" concept espoused by George Buehler?
George is going to have a book out early next year on this subject: "Troller
Yacht Book : A Powerboater's Guide to Crossing Oceans Without Getting Wet or
Going Broke".
For an example of what he's talking about, see:
Especially read the pages under "A Practical Approach".
In a nutshell, George is suggesting an alternative to the traditional trawler
yacht, a boat based on the salmon trolling workboats used on the Pacific coast
in mid-century. The boat George proposes is considerably longer and narrower
than a trawler hull (for a given displacement), and also has much less
above-deck structure. The idea is that the boats will be more seaworthy, and
yet be much cheaper to build and run than trawlers, although of course they
will not have all the creature comforts of the typical trawler yacht.
Just to whet your appetite, the "Pilgrim" is projected to have a range of up to
9800 miles at 7 knots on 200 gallons of diesel! Yeah, sure, you'll never do
that well in the real world of wind, waves, and current, but still!
On initial impression, this is exactly the kind of boat I think I want.
Simple, easy to maintain, great range, very seaworthy. But I'm a Clueless
Newbie, so if any of you Old Salts would like to read what is on that website
and then reply back here with your thoughts, I would appreciate it and, who
knows, it might even start an interesting discussion about (gasp) BOATS! :))
Dave
Walter,
There has been enough argument over that designation, trawler yacht, and
discussing it any further is useless, as you just can't fight trends,
especially with all the money investment behind this group.
A troller is, as Mr Beuhler says, another breed of cat altogether, and
his Pilgrim - and there are other similar designs - is much closer to a
true working boat than the trawler yachts.
Well, I wasn't intending to denigrate "regular" trawler yachts, whether they
have an "authentic" pedigree or not. :) To those of you who have them and like
them, great! More power to ya!
For me (again keeping in mind this is Clueless Newbie speaking), the two
biggest design problems with the vast majority of trawlers is their huge
windage and extensive areas of glasswork. It just seems like that could cause
real problems if you ran into a bad storm on a passage. Some designs seem to
avoid the worst of that (I hit the Lotto, I'm ordering a Nordhaven 46 <G>) but
I think it applies to the vast majority of production trawlers.
The second two biggest problems are the cost of the boat, and the extensive
number and complexity of systems to maintain on a typical trawler. Comparing
bluewater sailboats to trawlers, it looks like a loosely comparable trawler
will cost at least twice what a sailboat will. Not saying it's not worth it,
just not sure my personal retirement fund will handle buying a trawler -and- a
long-term cruising kitty. Once I cast off, I don't want to ever have to
come back. I'm a firm believer that Murphy is alive and well, and to me,
having a zillion complex and expensive systems implies a zillion complex and
expensive repairs. Again, if I had the cash I'd just get one of those 150'
jobs and let the crew do it, but that ain't happenin. :) I need something I
can maintain myself, easily, at a reasonable cost.
Even though I'm boatless I've read a ton of cruising books (including Beebe,
of course). Sailboats are neat. I love to watch them, and I love to ride on
someone else's. But for myself I don't want to have to mess with the rig all
the time. I don't like how all the "stuff" interferes with the use of the
deck space when you're on the hook. I enjoy sailing, but it's not an end in
itself to me. Passagemaking is just a way to get where I want to go. Doing
this at a consistent speed, on a Great Circle course, out of the weather, has a
lot of appeal.
What has long occurred to me is that what I really want is sort of a bluewater
sailboat without sails. So the Pilgrim looked pretty exciting. Myself, I
would probably want to extend it to about 50' and have it built of metal, but
the overall layout looks pretty close. You mention that there have been some
other similar designs. Any references for me to run down!
To the list, sorry for the length of this. I do tend to be long-winded, but I
try to keep it on-topic and be careful about quoting. I invite comments from
all as to whether my thinking is in the right direction, or all wet. :)
Dave
Dave:
Right. In more than one way you are right. As to troller yachts, it's
all a matter of semantics. Trawler as applied to a yacht is an
advertising gimmic that has become accepted in the power yachting crowd,
and is really rather meaningless. These boats have no relationship
whatsoever to a real trawler, which is a fishing vessel that hauls a
trawl net. There has been enough argument over that designation,
trawler yacht, and discussing it any further is useless, as you just
can't fight trends, especially with all the money investment behind this
group.
A troller is, as Mr Beuhler says, another breed of cat altogether, and
his Pilgrim - and there are other similar designs - is much closer to a
true working boat than the trawler yachts.
True, you will never get the condo comforts of home in a troller, work
boat or yacht, as you will a trawler yacht, but then you aren't paying
for those amenities, either.
Yes, a few of us are aware of the difference, and I am toying with the
idea of building a Pilgrim, but feel that 44 feet is more than I care to
pay moorage for. I already own one of the engines he recommends, but
will probably put it into a similar type boat, just smaller..
I will be more than happy to correspond with you on this subject, on or
off the list. Feel free. Thank you for bringing up such a delightful
subject.
www
On Mon, 7 Dec 1998 18:01:42 +0000 "Dave" gannet@cftnet.com writes:
Is anyone familiar with the "Troller Yacht" concept espoused by George
Buehler?
Yes, I am familiar with George's troller yacht concept. I have had a
number of conversations with George about his ideas. George is a very
innovative guy who doesn't give a **** about convention ! George takes a
Thoreau approach to boating, that is..... less is more. George has the
opinion that many of the custom and production boats on the market today
are nothing more than "Bulldozers of the sea" (his words, not mine !),
plowing furrows into the waterways of the world. The hulls are fat,
poorly designed, and overly complex. Some of those boats are quite
popular on this list and sell well in the marketplace. George made that
observation (not I) but I tend to agree with him.
It is a matter of semantics - trawlers, trollers, passagemakers, coastal
cruisers - pick your definition. All that matters is that you are happy
with what you are floating in. Most of the popular displacement designs
today have a beam/length ratio of 1/3 and a displacement/length ratio of
about 300 to 400. This type of design sells well and so that is what the
manufacturers produce. The manufacturers are in this to make a profit
(often small) so they produce what they know they can sell. Sometimes
they try to do something a little different, it doesn't sell, and they
have made a very costly mistake. Some examples of "trawler" ideas that
didn't sell well are the Gulfstar 53, Fantail 50, and the Krogen 54.
Fewer than 10 of each of these models was ever produced.
There has been an attempt in the last few years to take the power voyager
concept to a different level. Some people are exploring the power
catamaran as a viable alternative to the overburdened, inefficient,
expensive, fuel wasting designs that are popular today. I am encouraged
by the work of Paul Kruse, Steve Darden, and others in this area. They
are very capable in explaining their concept and I will leave that to
them.
Yet another concept is the refinement of the monohull into a more
efficient design. George Buehler has drawn conceptual ideas for a number
of very imaginative power boats. The one that has been most successful
is the Diesel Duck - featured in the latest addition of Voyaging Under
Power. ( As an aside, it is interesting to note that this design is the
one that most closely conforms to the conventional, popular production
designs today.) Many of his designs have B/L ratios of 1/4 to 1/5 and
D/L ratios less than 200. Many of these designs are very long and slender
with a low profile. They have easily driven hulls that are relatively
simple to construct, economical to build and operate. A concept that he
calls a "troller yacht." A couple of other designers who are doing
innovative work with a similar philosophy are Dave Gerr and Michael
Kasten. You can see some of Michael's work at: www. xsw.com/gulliver
Apparently, Bill Kimley of Seahorse Marine is attempting to build some
boats along this line. I hope that Bill will wade in on this list with
his ideas about this subject. A boat that exemplifies this concept is a
boat called Traveller. She was featured in the Fall, 1996 issue of
Passagemaker magazine. She is constructed of unpainted aluminum and will
cruise at 7.5 knots at 1.4 gph with a range of almost 6000 nm. I had the
opportunity to spend several hours aboard Traveller at the Trawler Fest
in Solomons in 1997. I understand she returned to Solomons again this
year.
I am an advocate of this new approach to power voyaging design. I am
developing a concept called "the Galatea project". Michael Kasten has
been very inspirational and has been very encouraging. My initial
development is in a design that is about 54 ft LOA, 49 ft. LWL, 12 ft.
beam, about 40,000 displacement. The boat will be built in metal (final
decision on steel or aluminum has not been made) and will have a B/L
ratio of 1/4.5 and a D/L ratio of about 160. She will cruise at 8 knots
burning 1.6 gph with a range of about 2500 nm. All systems will be very
simple. Interior will be very comfortable with a minimum of brightwork.
She will sleep 2 comfortably and 2 more uncomfortably. She will dine 4
comfortably and 2 more uncomfortably. She will entertain 6 comfortably
and 2 more uncomfortably. Her exterior appearance will be similar to a
motor sailor as opposed to the raised pilot house design that is popular
today. A generous sailplan will provide a "get home" system as well as
stabilization. The development process continues.
Just to whet your appetite, the "Pilgrim" is projected to have a range
of up to
9800 miles at 7 knots on 200 gallons of diesel! Yeah, sure, you'll
never do
that well in the real world of wind, waves, and current, but still!
Dave I think that is not quite right. George is a designer not a
mathematician. Using his criteria, the fuel burn at 7 knots, 200 gal.
would provide a range of about 4000 nm not 9800. This is still quite
amazing but not unexpected considering the boat's displacement of about
12,000 pounds at half load. And of course you are right, your real range
will depend on a number of considerations, most of which we have no
control over.
On initial impression, this is exactly the kind of boat I think I
want.
Simple, easy to maintain, great range, very seaworthy.
I am in total agreement with you. However, I am not sure that I would
want to put to sea in a 10,000 pound plywood boat with a D/L ratio of
only 61. Crew comfort and safety in any kind of sea other than dead calm
would be a consideration. I know that there are some hardy souls that
would have no problem doing that, but I'm not one of them. I have a
wife/partner to consider when I am tempted to make a foolish decision
like that. I will have to let George speak for himself, but I don't
think he designed Pilgrim to be a passagemaker. I think he designed her
as a weekend "gunkholer". As far as his projected cost of $15,000 for
this boat is concerned, I think almost anything is possible for an
owner/builder. However, I believe that meeting a $15K budget for this
boat will take a lot of creativity and fortitude on the part of the
builder.
Walter Wise wrote:
I am toying with the
idea of building a Pilgrim, but feel that 44 feet is more than I care to
pay moorage for. I already own one of the engines he recommends, but
will probably put it into a similar type boat, just smaller
An interesting, economical coastal cruiser is being built in New Zealand
called the Logan 33. Take a look at their website:
www.igrin.co.nz/catam/index.html Definitely not a passagemaker, not even
a "trawler" but an old "commuter" design that has been modernized and has
much to offer to someone on a strict budget.
I believe that there is room for all manner of power cruisers in this
forum. By exploring the potential of each style we can all learn from
each other, We can then begin to fulfill the extent of our dreams and
aspirations within the confines of the boat design that makes our blood
rush and heart beat a little faster.
tempus fugit
Patrick
the Galatea project
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Patrick,
Thanks for the informative post.
Some examples of "trawler" ideas that didn't sell well are the Gulfstar 53,
Fantail 50, and the Krogen 54. Fewer than 10 of each of these models was
ever produced.
Any thoughts on just why that is? What features of these designs doomed them
in the marketplace?
I am encouraged by the work of Paul Kruse, Steve Darden, and others in this
area. They are very capable in explaining their concept and I will leave
that to them.
A couple of other designers who are doing innovative work with a similar
philosophy are Dave Gerr and Michael Kasten. You can see some of Michael's
work at: www. xsw.com/gulliver Apparently, Bill Kimley of Seahorse Marine is
attempting to build some boats along this line.
I've seen the Gulliver site. Very interesting. Any further pointers on where
I could learn more about the work of these designers?
I am an advocate of this new approach to power voyaging design. I am
developing a concept called "the Galatea project". Michael Kasten has been
very inspirational and has been very encouraging. The development process
continues.
Most interesting. Your tastes are very similar to my own. I hope this will be
written up in a magazine or Web page.
Just to whet your appetite, the "Pilgrim" is projected to have a range
of up to
9800 miles at 7 knots on 200 gallons of diesel! Yeah, sure, you'll
never do
that well in the real world of wind, waves, and current, but still!
Dave I think that is not quite right. George is a designer not a
mathematician. Using his criteria, the fuel burn at 7 knots, 200 gal.
would provide a range of about 4000 nm not 9800.
Woops. :) Just quoted from the Pilgrim website, didn't check the math. It
-did- seem awfully high! :)
On initial impression, this is exactly the kind of boat I think I
want.
Simple, easy to maintain, great range, very seaworthy.
I am in total agreement with you. However, I am not sure that I would
want to put to sea in a 10,000 pound plywood boat with a D/L ratio of
only 61. Crew comfort and safety in any kind of sea other than dead calm
would be a consideration.
You are exactly correct. My statement was too general. What really appealed
to me about the design was more the overall concept, not the specific
implementation. To my untrained eye, she is too light for heavy work, and I
had exactly the same thoughts as you. Glad to know I was on the right track.
:)
I will have to let George speak for himself, but I don't
think he designed Pilgrim to be a passagemaker. I think he designed her
as a weekend "gunkholer".
I believe there is a statement saying essentially that on the Pilgrim website.
As far as his projected cost of $15,000 for this boat is concerned, I think
almost anything is possible for an owner/builder. However, I believe that
meeting a $15K budget for this boat will take a lot of creativity and
fortitude on the part of the builder.
George seems to have scrounging abilities that are beyond the reach of most
mortal ken. :)
An interesting, economical coastal cruiser is being built in New Zealand
called the Logan 33. Take a look at their website:
www.igrin.co.nz/catam/index.html Definitely not a passagemaker, not even
a "trawler" but an old "commuter" design that has been modernized and has
much to offer to someone on a strict budget.
A lovely boat! I would love to have something like that for tooling around
here on the West Florida coast. Pretty reasonably priced, too.
I believe that there is room for all manner of power cruisers in this
forum. By exploring the potential of each style we can all learn from
each other,
My sentiments exactly, I know I am certainly learning a great deal from all
the trawler owners. My thanks to the entire list!
We can then begin to fulfill the extent of our dreams and aspirations within
the confines of the boat design that makes our blood rush and heart beat a
little faster.
You said it! :)
Why not take a few moments and tell us about your design project? Not just a
description of what she is, but also the decision-making process that is going
into her, and also perhaps discussion of the "features" that you are avoiding
as well as those you are including? I think that for many, whether designing a
custom boat, building/having built from stock plans, or buying a production
design, the hard part is figuring out what you want and -don't- want, and why.
Listening to an experienced person go through that process could be
tremendously valuable to many, I think.
Dave
Has anyone had trouble with Krogen fuel tanks? A fellow boater has had to
replace theirs. Evidently, they were polyester over plywood. It took them
more than 3yrs of legal action to get a token payment from Krogen, they
cried for years that they were broke and could do nothing about their bad
design and workmanship.
LEN BRUNOTTE
MARY JANE
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-trawler-world-list@samurai.com
[mailto:owner-trawler-world-list@samurai.com]On Behalf Of Dave
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 1998 7:24 PM
To: trawler-world-list@samurai.com
Subject: Re: Troller Yachts?
Patrick,
Thanks for the informative post.
Some examples of "trawler" ideas that didn't sell well are the
Gulfstar 53,
Fantail 50, and the Krogen 54. Fewer than 10 of each of these models was
ever produced.
Any thoughts on just why that is? What features of these designs
doomed them
in the marketplace?
I am encouraged by the work of Paul Kruse, Steve Darden, and
others in this
area. They are very capable in explaining their concept and I
will leave
that to them.
A couple of other designers who are doing innovative work with a similar
philosophy are Dave Gerr and Michael Kasten. You can see some
of Michael's
work at: www. xsw.com/gulliver Apparently, Bill Kimley of
Seahorse Marine is
attempting to build some boats along this line.
I've seen the Gulliver site. Very interesting. Any further
pointers on where
I could learn more about the work of these designers?
I am an advocate of this new approach to power voyaging design. I am
developing a concept called "the Galatea project". Michael
Kasten has been
very inspirational and has been very encouraging. The
development process
continues.
Most interesting. Your tastes are very similar to my own. I
hope this will be
written up in a magazine or Web page.
Just to whet your appetite, the "Pilgrim" is projected to have a range
of up to
9800 miles at 7 knots on 200 gallons of diesel! Yeah, sure, you'll
never do
that well in the real world of wind, waves, and current, but still!
Dave I think that is not quite right. George is a designer not a
mathematician. Using his criteria, the fuel burn at 7 knots, 200 gal.
would provide a range of about 4000 nm not 9800.
Woops. :) Just quoted from the Pilgrim website, didn't check the
math. It
-did- seem awfully high! :)
On initial impression, this is exactly the kind of boat I think I
want.
Simple, easy to maintain, great range, very seaworthy.
I am in total agreement with you. However, I am not sure that I would
want to put to sea in a 10,000 pound plywood boat with a D/L ratio of
only 61. Crew comfort and safety in any kind of sea other than dead calm
would be a consideration.
You are exactly correct. My statement was too general. What
really appealed
to me about the design was more the overall concept, not the specific
implementation. To my untrained eye, she is too light for heavy
work, and I
had exactly the same thoughts as you. Glad to know I was on the
right track.
:)
I will have to let George speak for himself, but I don't
think he designed Pilgrim to be a passagemaker. I think he designed her
as a weekend "gunkholer".
I believe there is a statement saying essentially that on the
Pilgrim website.
As far as his projected cost of $15,000 for this boat is
concerned, I think
almost anything is possible for an owner/builder. However, I
believe that
meeting a $15K budget for this boat will take a lot of creativity and
fortitude on the part of the builder.
George seems to have scrounging abilities that are beyond the
reach of most
mortal ken. :)
An interesting, economical coastal cruiser is being built in New Zealand
called the Logan 33. Take a look at their website:
www.igrin.co.nz/catam/index.html Definitely not a
passagemaker, not even
a "trawler" but an old "commuter" design that has been
modernized and has
much to offer to someone on a strict budget.
A lovely boat! I would love to have something like that for
tooling around
here on the West Florida coast. Pretty reasonably priced, too.
I believe that there is room for all manner of power cruisers in this
forum. By exploring the potential of each style we can all learn from
each other,
My sentiments exactly, I know I am certainly learning a great
deal from all
the trawler owners. My thanks to the entire list!
We can then begin to fulfill the extent of our dreams and
aspirations within
the confines of the boat design that makes our blood rush and
heart beat a
little faster.
You said it! :)
Why not take a few moments and tell us about your design project?
Not just a
description of what she is, but also the decision-making process
that is going
into her, and also perhaps discussion of the "features" that you
are avoiding
as well as those you are including? I think that for many,
whether designing a
custom boat, building/having built from stock plans, or buying a
production
design, the hard part is figuring out what you want and -don't-
want, and why.
Listening to an experienced person go through that process could be
tremendously valuable to many, I think.
Dave
On Wed, 9 Dec 1998 00:24:04 +0000 "Dave" gannet@cftnet.com writes:
Some examples of "trawler" ideas that didn't sell well are the
Gulfstar 53,
Fantail 50, and the Krogen 54. Fewer than 10 of each of these models
was
ever produced.
Any thoughts on just why that is? What features of these designs
doomed them
in the marketplace?
Dave, reasons that some boats never sell well are often varied and
complex. Often times it is a result of a combination of some or all of
the following: bad timing, insufficient capitalization, lack of
marketing, inept management, consumer attitude, poor quality control, and
uncontrollable exterior forces such as the oil crisis. Any comments I
make about the Gulfstar 53 and Krogen 54 would be strictly speculative.
However, some things that might give an indication of what went wrong are
interesting.
The Gulfstar 53 is a full displacement vessel of 42,000 lbs. With a
waterline length of 47'3" she as a maximum speed of 9.2 knots. She is
powered by two 160 hp. Perkins, that's 320 hp ! 42,000 lbs can easily be
pushed to 9.2 knots by 135 hp. She has 3 staterooms to sleep 6 plus a
dinette and settee to sleep 4 more - a total of 10. Yet the saloon is
rather small for a boat this size and will accommodate only 4 to 6
comfortably. Is there something wrong with this picture? Gulfstar was
sold to Viking in 1987 and evidently Viking had other priorities.
The Krogen 54 was introduced in the late '80s. She is a beautiful vessel
in the "workboat" style. That particular look was not popular back then.
It is only gaining in popularity today. Krogen has re-introduced the 54
and you can order one on a semi-custom basis. However, I hear the price
is close to $1 mil., where she faces a lot of stiff competition with
vessels that offer larger and more sumptuous accommodations at the same
price. For example, Krogen Co. itself has introduced the Krogen 58 with
a more modern profile and twin engines which will be in competition with
the 54. It's a tough neighborhood.
I do know a little more about the Fantail 49. She was in production in
the early '90s and 9 hulls were sold. I investigated the possibility of
acquiring the Fantail molds and putting the vessel back into production a
couple of years ago. I was curious why the Fantail did not sell like
crazy because I think it is a rather handsome design. During my research
I had the opportunity to speak at length with J.C. Mann the distributor
and marketer, Rob Ladd the naval architect, and Steve Davis (the marine
illustrator) who did much of the design concept. They were pretty much
in agreement. Being a full displacement hull of only 3'10" draft should
tended to roll - I mean really roll. It was not a safety issue at all,
the hull was very stiff in terms of righting ability. However when a
prospective customer walked on board from a dock the boat would start
rolling just by walking around on deck and wouldn't stop til they
exited. To those buyers who didn't understand the concept, this was very
disconcerting. In addition, many customers wanted twin engines for peace
of mind. The fantail hull would not accommodate twin engines. The boat
was beautifully finished and consequently the price was high at that
time. Finally, there was disagreement among the financial backers (
names not mentioned here) of the project and lawsuits resulted.
Production stopped. Rob Ladd said that the only way to make the Fantail
49 a production success would be to completely redesign the hull to
accommodated either a single or twins, increase the draft, increase the
ballast in the keel, and avoid the legal morass that I understand runs
unabated even today. So.......I passed on the idea of acquiring the
molds. I was very surprised to hear that Hyatt might be putting the boat
back into production. At this very moment I'm trying to track that down.
I can tell you this, that there was one other PROMINENT builder that
contacted me about a year ago for information concerning the molds. They
also decided to pass after I told them the results of my research.
Anyway, I hope this gives a little idea why boats cost so much. Putting
one into production is a big financial risk.
A couple of other designers who are doing innovative work with a
similar
philosophy are Dave Gerr and Michael Kasten. You can see some of
Michael's
work at: www. xsw.com/gulliver Apparently, Bill Kimley of Seahorse
Marine is
attempting to build some boats along this line.
I've seen the Gulliver site. Very interesting. Any further pointers
on where
I could learn more about the work of these designers?
You can see more of Michael's work at: xsw.com/boojum and by
subscribing to the Metal Boat Society also reached through the Boojum
site. He can be contacted at: redpath@olympus.net
Dave Gerr has written a very interesting book called The Nature of Boats
- it's in my library. His design philosophy and some of his work is
included there. He also sells a design portfolio called Voyaging
Motorcruising Designs (as I recall, it's around $10 ) through his office
at: 212-864-7030
Bill Kimley can be reached at: zhyachts@pub.zhuhai.gd.cn
Let me reiterate the usual disclaimers here, I don't have any connections
financial or otherwise with any persons or products mentioned.
I am doing research on production ocean motorboats being built in metal
in the "troller" concept by such companies as Linnsen, Branson, Seahorse
Marine and others. If you have any interest in the results, send me a
private e-mail, and I will put you on the list. I already have about 10
people who have indicated interest.
In the meantime, keep asking questions. Trawler World is the center of
the universe as far as information about power cruising is concerned.
tempus fugit
Patrick
the Galatea Project
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