Yes, we are using VSE

Nino Galante

Telebit Consulting S.r.l.
http://www.telebitconsulting.it
----- Original Message -----
From: Steven Kelly
To: Henrik Høyer ; The general-purpose Squeak developers list ; ESUG Mailing list
Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 11:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Esug-list] Is Cincom slowly killing Visual Smalltalk Enterprice

If you are continuing to use VSE, please reply to the list with at least a simple "Yes".

I have no interest in VSE, but Henrik has asked twice and got no replies (on this list), so let's at least help reduce a fellow Smalltalker's frustration.

Cheers,

Steve

From: esug-list-bounces@lists.esug.org [mailto:esug-list-bounces@lists.esug.org] On Behalf Of Henrik Høyer
Sent: 7. syyskuuta 2010 22:04
To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list; ESUG Mailing list
Subject: Re: [Esug-list] Is Cincom slowly killing Visual Smalltalk Enterprice

Dear all

From the reactions to my post, I fear that people might have misunderstood me. Bear in mind, that I am not a native English speaker - though my language might sound harsh and offensive, I do have the best intensions.

The subject of the original post should perhaps have been: "Is Cincom slowly killing Visual Smalltalk Enterprise customers". Who shot VSE a long time ago is another discussion. As are the discussion of how/whether one could/should port the applications to other Smalltalk dialects.

My focus is entirely on how the current VSE users can extend the life of their applications on the VSE platform. Even though development on VSE stopped more than 10 years ago, the applications are still running today on current operating system versions and with on-par performance.

Part of VSE is closed source; The VM, the compiler and several other stuff. Though clever hacking/patching bugs in these closed parts of VSE have been fixes by the community since the official development stopped. But Cincom (who has the exclusive rights to make money from supporting the product) has now unleashed its lawyers, and are threatening some of the most active people in the community. The amount of "lawyer muscle" behind the threats are actually keeping people from even replying to this post.

I did have a deep respect for Cincom; they have done a great job for the Smalltalk community. I don't know where in their organization the "money matters more than ethics" policy is in action. It is not among the Smalltalk people we all know, but the ones who are pulling the strings are in fact doing a lot of damage to their corporate image.

I know that some Cincom employees have commented on my post, but I still have had no answers to the main question:

Are Cincom willing to donate/sell their "exclusive exploratory rights to the VSE product"?

Please note: The question is not about the IP. It is only about the rights that Cincom holds, oh and by the way; are Cincom willing to disclose the contact they have with Seagull regarding these rights?

With all the best intensions

   Henrik Høyer
   
    Chief Software Architect
   
    hh@sppl.dk . (+45) 4029 2092
   
    Rued Langgaards Vej 7 . 2300 Kbh. S
   
    www.sPeople.dk . (+45) 7023 7775
   

Esug-list mailing list
Esug-list@lists.esug.org
http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

14 timesRepeat:[YES].

Steve,
unfortunately most VSE Users missed your question...
This week, we raised your question again on the VSEW mailing list
and so far, we got 14 positive replies from the following persons/companies
which did not directly reply to your posting (their replies are appended
below) :

Derek Renouf, Martin H. Krough, Giorgio Ferraris, Chris Copleston, Kjell
Harald Ulstad,
Nicolas Bryant, Lorenzo Schiavina, Ed Baker, Manfred Möbus, Carl Gundel,
Skogstad Nielsson, Rick Martin, Lorin McCaffrey, Alejandro F. Reimondo

Regards,
Tom

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: esug-list-bounces@lists.esug.org
[mailto:esug-list-bounces@lists.esug.org]Im Auftrag von Steven Kelly
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. September 2010 11:13
An: Henrik Høyer; The general-purpose Squeak developers list; ESUG Mailing
list
Betreff: Re: [Esug-list] Is Cincom slowly killing Visual Smalltalk
Enterprice

If you are continuing to use VSE, please reply to the list with at least a
simple “Yes”.

I have no interest in VSE, but Henrik has asked twice and got no replies
(on this list), so let’s at least help reduce a fellow Smalltalker’s
frustration.

Cheers,

Steve

****************** ORIGINAL REPLIES FROM THE VSEW MAILING LIST

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Using Visual Smalltalk for Windows/Enterprise
[mailto:VSWE-L@LISTSERV.DFN.DE]Im Auftrag von Derek Renouf
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 22. September 2010 10:30
An: VSWE-L@LISTSERV.DFN.DE
Betreff: Re: Is Cincom slowly killing Visual Smalltalk Enterprice

Andreas,
We are very interested in continued use of VSE and developments
including the Lesser VM. Whilst I am not on the ESUG mailing list I am
certainly interested in the response from Cincom.
-- Derek

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Using Visual Smalltalk for Windows/Enterprise
[mailto:VSWE-L@LISTSERV.DFN.DE]Im Auftrag von Martin H Krogh
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 22. September 2010 10:24
An: VSWE-L@LISTSERV.DFN.DE
Betreff: Re: Is Cincom slowly killing Visual Smalltalk Enterprice

Sorry - I must have missed that one...
Yeah, I'm happily using VSE :-)

Med venlig hilsen / Best regards
MARTIN HASTRUP KROGH
Systemdeveloper
CSC Scandihealth A/S

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Using Visual Smalltalk for Windows/Enterprise
[mailto:VSWE-L@LISTSERV.DFN.DE]Im Auftrag von giorgio ferraris
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 22. September 2010 11:17
An: VSWE-L@LISTSERV.DFN.DE
Betreff: Re: Is Cincom slowly killing Visual Smalltalk Enterprice

we are still using VSE for an old product

new dev in VW

ciao

Giorgio

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Using Visual Smalltalk for Windows/Enterprise
[mailto:VSWE-L@LISTSERV.DFN.DE]Im Auftrag von Chris Copleston
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 22. September 2010 11:22
An: VSWE-L@LISTSERV.DFN.DE
Betreff: Re: Is Cincom slowly killing Visual Smalltalk Enterprice

We use VSE for our web authoring product: www.softidiom.com

Regards,
Chris Copleston

www.softidiom.com
www.4dsites.com

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Using Visual Smalltalk for Windows/Enterprise
[mailto:VSWE-L@LISTSERV.DFN.DE]Im Auftrag von Kjell Harald Ulstad
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 22. September 2010 11:53
An: VSWE-L@LISTSERV.DFN.DE
Betreff: Re: Is Cincom slowly killing Visual Smalltalk Enterprice

Hi!

Yes, we are using VSE, but we don’t follow the ESUG mailing list.

Our product (Paga Klient) is critically important for us and our customers.
www.multidata-bluegarden.com

Regards

/Kjell

Kjell H. Ulstad

Arkitekt. Systemeier Paga/R&D

+47 908 33 417

www.bluegarden.no

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Using Visual Smalltalk for Windows/Enterprise
[mailto:VSWE-L@LISTSERV.DFN.DE]Im Auftrag von Nicolas Bryant
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 22. September 2010 12:04
An: VSWE-L@LISTSERV.DFN.DE
Betreff: Re: Is Cincom slowly killing Visual Smalltalk Enterprice

As everyone else seems to be chiming in: my VisualSmalltalk application is
still very important to my company and will remain so for at least another
year or two. We recently signed a 7-figure contract with the Australian
army, and the VisualSmalltalk application is probably the single most
important component for their purposes.

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Using Visual Smalltalk for Windows/Enterprise
[mailto:VSWE-L@LISTSERV.DFN.DE]Im Auftrag von Lorenzo Schiavina
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 22. September 2010 12:35
An: VSWE-L@LISTSERV.DFN.DE
Betreff: Re: Is Cincom slowly killing Visual Smalltalk Enterprice

All my applications are in VSE

www.edor.it

Lorenzo

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Using Visual Smalltalk for Windows/Enterprise
[mailto:VSWE-L@LISTSERV.DFN.DE]Im Auftrag von Ed Baker
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 22. September 2010 13:32
An: VSWE-L@LISTSERV.DFN.DE
Betreff: Re: Is Cincom slowly killing Visual Smalltalk Enterprice

Yes, we are using VSE for our product.  I am not on the ESUG mailing list.

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Using Visual Smalltalk for Windows/Enterprise
[mailto:VSWE-L@LISTSERV.DFN.DE]Im Auftrag von Möbus. Manfred
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 22. September 2010 14:53
An: VSWE-L@LISTSERV.DFN.DE
Betreff: Re: Is Cincom slowly killing Visual Smalltalk Enterprice

Adding one further item:

We are heavily using VSE, will probably do so for long

(and none of us is in the esug mailing list).

Manfred

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Using Visual Smalltalk for Windows/Enterprise
[mailto:VSWE-L@LISTSERV.DFN.DE]Im Auftrag von Carl Gundel
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 22. September 2010 15:44
An: VSWE-L@LISTSERV.DFN.DE
Betreff: Re: Is Cincom slowly killing Visual Smalltalk Enterprice

I use it all the time, nearly every day.

-Carl Gundel

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Using Visual Smalltalk for Windows/Enterprise
[mailto:VSWE-L@LISTSERV.DFN.DE]Im Auftrag von SkogstadNielsen
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 22. September 2010 16:05
An: VSWE-L@LISTSERV.DFN.DE
Betreff: Re: Is Cincom slowly killing Visual Smalltalk Enterprice

Here is another happy user

Søren Skogstad Nielsen

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Using Visual Smalltalk for Windows/Enterprise
[mailto:VSWE-L@LISTSERV.DFN.DE]Im Auftrag von Rick Martin
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 22. September 2010 16:19
An: VSWE-L@LISTSERV.DFN.DE
Betreff: Re: Is Cincom slowly killing Visual Smalltalk Enterprice

We (Data-Basics) market a very large VSE based application known as Sampro.

VSE is vital to our business and will continue to be so for the foreseeable
future.

Rick Martin

Data-Basics Inc.

rmartin@databasics.com

216-663-5600

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Using Visual Smalltalk for Windows/Enterprise
[mailto:VSWE-L@LISTSERV.DFN.DE]Im Auftrag von Lorin McCaffrey
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 22. September 2010 19:29
An: VSWE-L@LISTSERV.DFN.DE
Betreff: Re: Is Cincom slowly killing Visual Smalltalk Enterprice

We (Policy Works, formerly known as Tec4 Systems) are still actively
developing on VSE.

No we don’t monitor the ESUG mailing list.

Lorin McCaffrey
Director of Product Development
Policy Works
Commercial Management Systems

Direct: 403.450.1101
Toll Free: 800.260.3676 x101
lorin.mccaffrey@policyworks.com

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Using Visual Smalltalk for Windows/Enterprise
[mailto:VSWE-L@LISTSERV.DFN.DE]Im Auftrag von Alejandro F. Reimondo
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 22. September 2010 21:11
An: VSWE-L@LISTSERV.DFN.DE
Betreff: Re: Is Cincom slowly killing Visual Smalltalk Enterprice

Hi!,

I have been working in development and consulting in VSE

from the time it was released... nothing has changed from that time

;-)

"Yes, I´m using VSE"

But from my first meeting with Frank Lesser,

I desided to do not wait for charity of companies

interested in other bussiness and/or other "future"

for Smalltalk; I accept their points of view and

actions, but don't think they will change to converge

to my needs.

It has been some years ago, from our first meeting

and now we have a much better VM (version 3.0

& still capable to host VSE applications! )

and it also can host other OO runtimes at top speed

AT SAME TIME  (yes, we can run more than one

smalltalk environment at same time now, and we will

show our vm running vse+others soon).

My personal experience with VSE let me use it in

situations that are more speed demanding than expected by

Cincom people; there was a response of an referent

of Cincom to this thread (but I do not remember if it

was here) saying that VW is used in real time apps...

In last years my use of VSE has been in many domains,

one of them was in analysis of video information

(vision stuff running on stored video databases).

For that kind of use of smalltalk I need to run 5 to 10

times faster than real time!!!

It is not acceptable to take one hour to process

one hour of video data :-)

With VSE I implemented good solutions where

most processing at medium & upper levels is realized

in Smalltalk under windows platform (using com, native &

callback based interfaces).

With Lesser-software VM we have much faster processing

and let me increase the power of my product to process

3 to 4 times the frames I processed with VSE.

With no modification of source code.

IMO the decade that has passed from discontinuation of VSE,

do not invalidate the use of the product but there are things that

we need to resolve :

1.- enhancement and maintenance of VM  (not the same vm, we

need a mantained vm of this decade)

2.- zero cost portability; a lot of frameworks are written in

other smalltalk dialects and running with other OO runtimes

-e.g. javascript-; we need to use that frameworks

WITHOUT porting costs (it is crazy to write and mantain sources

when we have been using objects for decades).

3.- diversity - we need to support diversity in semantics (more

flexible&powerfull semantics management  in coherence with

the first steps made in VSE but enabling more features).

The point 1 is the most dificult point because it requires

real experience in the field, the "I want to be a vm maker"

attitude do not help in this area. [*]

thanks for reading!

Ale.

[*] There is recent evidence to consider e.g. Jitter

implementation of Squeak... an open source implementation put in the

tips of an active community; that has never evolved to be part

of a high perfomance Squeak implementation.