Empathy List Archives

JH

Jim Healy

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 2:45 PM

Peter,

You asked a serious question, so I will attempt a serious answer. I mean no
personal disrespect to any persons with my observations, following. My
comments are about the "system" that is T&T; a system comprised of interacting
and overlapping human and technological components. I believe my summary is
accurate and reflects reality, but I acknowledge some of my comments may sound
harsh, particularly in email form.

In watching this T&T list operate over the past several years, it seems to me
there is strong resistance to ideas about changing it, and rigid adherence to
"rules" laid down by it's leaders (owners), some of which make only partial
sense. This has driven away some major contributors over time, and that
outcome seems acceptable to list leaders and is tolerated by us, all of us,
the list's users. The design point of this list - defacto, just the standard
of its day - is as a collecting point for posing and responding to random
topics in random order.

Resistance to change is human factors in nature, on the part of both the
people who run the list and those of us who use it; it's not about technology.
Fundamentally, the vast majority of users feel "it's OK." Creating an
effective forum is very difficult. To work effectively, a forum has to have
a complete, robust taxonomy. That necessitates a very substantial startup and
learning curve just to determine, organize and codify topic categories. That
could be done here. The data to construct a taxonomy is present in the many
years of archives we have. But there's no interest in doing it. No desire.
There's no vision and little appreciation of how it could be better, and the
intellectual "cost" of entry is high.

I believe you participate in the AGLCA forum, so you know that forum's
taxonomy is not very robust. The vast majority of posts wind up in the
"general" category. Their audience turns over quickly, so users learning a
complex taxonomy is not likely to happen. Developing an effective taxonomy
requires many hours of thoughtful consideration behind the scenes, and
collegial discussion and open mindedness on the part of the leadership with
knowledgeable users. It also requires willingness on the part of users to
learn it and use it. Not sure T&T has either interest. T&T's sole advantage
is it's simplicity of use. Difficulties with searches, archives and posting
pictures are largely accepted and ignored. People just ask the same old
questions again and again, and for the most part, responders are kind enough
and generous enough to simply respond again. If you look at the data (actual
message traffic in our years of archives) you'll see several topics that
routinely come up every few months, including this one, about 6 months ago. A
good search capability would remedy that, but then, individual users would
have to know how to do searches, and many T&T folks proudly assert that they
are not computer literate and intend to stay that way (I believe we've seen it
in this thread already). In fact, computer related topics related to boating
apps have actually been discouraged on this list. I and others have been
advised to "take your Windows question to a Windows forum," even though the
question was unique to an ECS app, or GPS setup, or software hangs. I have an
open question now on searching the T&T archives (not getting hits on keywords
using Google search) that one of the administrators agreed to follow up on. I
have been waiting on that for several weeks, and although many people have
reported the same problem searching the archives, I believe its out-of-sight
and out-of-mind at this point.

Nevertheless, T&T as-is works for a lot of people. I think it has a lot of
value, even with it's severe limitations.

If you want fora, there are plenty out there. Incidentally, I am not
overwhelmingly convinced they're that much better; they just have different
limitations. I didn't personally think much of the seriousness of the
"viaduct, vi not a chicken" response, but in the context of the different
strengths and weaknesses of mail lists vs. fora, it does have merit.

My advice: don't tinker with success.

Jim

Peg and Jim Healy aboard Sanctuary
Currently at Belhaven, NC
Monk 36 Hull #132
MMSI #367042570
AGLCA #3767
MTOA #3436

Peter, You asked a serious question, so I will attempt a serious answer. I mean no personal disrespect to any persons with my observations, following. My comments are about the "system" that is T&T; a system comprised of interacting and overlapping human and technological components. I believe my summary is accurate and reflects reality, but I acknowledge some of my comments may sound harsh, particularly in email form. In watching this T&T list operate over the past several years, it seems to me there is strong resistance to ideas about changing it, and rigid adherence to "rules" laid down by it's leaders (owners), some of which make only partial sense. This has driven away some major contributors over time, and that outcome seems acceptable to list leaders and is tolerated by us, all of us, the list's users. The design point of this list - defacto, just the standard of its day - is as a collecting point for posing and responding to random topics in random order. Resistance to change is human factors in nature, on the part of both the people who run the list and those of us who use it; it's not about technology. Fundamentally, the vast majority of users feel "it's OK." Creating an effective forum is *very difficult.* To work effectively, a forum has to have a complete, robust taxonomy. That necessitates a very substantial startup and learning curve just to determine, organize and codify topic categories. That could be done here. The data to construct a taxonomy is present in the many years of archives we have. But there's no interest in doing it. No desire. There's no vision and little appreciation of how it could be better, and the intellectual "cost" of entry is high. I believe you participate in the AGLCA forum, so you know that forum's taxonomy is not very robust. The vast majority of posts wind up in the "general" category. Their audience turns over quickly, so users learning a complex taxonomy is not likely to happen. Developing an effective taxonomy requires many hours of thoughtful consideration behind the scenes, and collegial discussion and open mindedness on the part of the leadership with knowledgeable users. It also requires willingness on the part of users to learn it and use it. Not sure T&T has either interest. T&T's sole advantage is it's simplicity of use. Difficulties with searches, archives and posting pictures are largely accepted and ignored. People just ask the same old questions again and again, and for the most part, responders are kind enough and generous enough to simply respond again. If you look at the data (actual message traffic in our years of archives) you'll see several topics that routinely come up every few months, including this one, about 6 months ago. A good search capability would remedy that, but then, individual users would have to know how to do searches, and many T&T folks proudly assert that they are not computer literate and intend to stay that way (I believe we've seen it in this thread already). In fact, computer related topics related to boating apps have actually been discouraged on this list. I and others have been advised to "take your Windows question to a Windows forum," even though the question was unique to an ECS app, or GPS setup, or software hangs. I have an open question now on searching the T&T archives (not getting hits on keywords using Google search) that one of the administrators agreed to follow up on. I have been waiting on that for several weeks, and although many people have reported the same problem searching the archives, I believe its out-of-sight and out-of-mind at this point. Nevertheless, T&T as-is works for a lot of people. I think it has a lot of value, even with it's severe limitations. If you want fora, there are plenty out there. Incidentally, I am not overwhelmingly convinced they're that much better; they just have different limitations. I didn't personally think much of the seriousness of the "viaduct, vi not a chicken" response, but in the context of the different strengths and weaknesses of mail lists vs. fora, it does have merit. My advice: don't tinker with success. Jim Peg and Jim Healy aboard Sanctuary Currently at Belhaven, NC Monk 36 Hull #132 MMSI #367042570 AGLCA #3767 MTOA #3436

PH

Peter Hayden

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 5:43 PM

Jim,

Thanks for the thoughtful and constructive response. It sure contrasts one
nasty private email I received, presumably not from the welcoming committee.

I guess I'd summarize the collective responses as saying "Yes, we understand
the limitations of a list, but really like the simplicity, and on balance
choose to stick with a list." That's fine, I fully accept it, and hope to
continue to participate in that context. One person said to me "If you don't
like lists then why did you sign up?". To me, it's about content first, and
format second. The content on this list is good - that's why I signed up and
why I continue to participate - even though I think it could be even more
useful in a different format.

Regarding taxonomy, I agree it doesn't go well with any forum or list partly
because they are intended to be free-form. That said, good search
capabilities can make up for a lot of evil in the taxonomy department. In the
forum world, different sites take different approaches to organization, as I'm
sure you know. One, YachtForum.comhttp://YachtForum.com I think, is so
granularly organized that it's nearly useless. On the other end of the
spectrum (sort of), there is another site unrelated to boats that has taken an
interesting approach. They have a fairly conventional forum structure, but
also have a Wiki "manual" that is evolving nicely, and is a structured, well
organized manual on the subject matter constructed from content from the
forums, creating an organized presentation of the communities collective
wisdom. Anyway, I'm not suggesting T&T do any of this - I just find it
interesting.

OK, back to my stabilizers. There's work to be done and a launch date to
meet.....

Peter

On Apr 28, 2011, at 10:45 AM, Jim Healy wrote:

Peter,

You asked a serious question, so I will attempt a serious answer. I mean no
personal disrespect to any persons with my observations, following. My
comments are about the "system" that is T&T; a system comprised of interacting
and overlapping human and technological components. I believe my summary is
accurate and reflects reality, but I acknowledge some of my comments may sound
harsh, particularly in email form.

In watching this T&T list operate over the past several years, it seems to me
there is strong resistance to ideas about changing it, and rigid adherence to
"rules" laid down by it's leaders (owners), some of which make only partial
sense. This has driven away some major contributors over time, and that
outcome seems acceptable to list leaders and is tolerated by us, all of us,
the list's users. The design point of this list - defacto, just the standard
of its day - is as a collecting point for posing and responding to random
topics in random order.

Resistance to change is human factors in nature, on the part of both the
people who run the list and those of us who use it; it's not about technology.
Fundamentally, the vast majority of users feel "it's OK." Creating an
effective forum is very difficult. To work effectively, a forum has to have
a complete, robust taxonomy. That necessitates a very substantial startup and
learning curve just to determine, organize and codify topic categories. That
could be done here. The data to construct a taxonomy is present in the many
years of archives we have. But there's no interest in doing it. No desire.
There's no vision and little appreciation of how it could be better, and the
intellectual "cost" of entry is high.

I believe you participate in the AGLCA forum, so you know that forum's
taxonomy is not very robust. The vast majority of posts wind up in the
"general" category. Their audience turns over quickly, so users learning a
complex taxonomy is not likely to happen. Developing an effective taxonomy
requires many hours of thoughtful consideration behind the scenes, and
collegial discussion and open mindedness on the part of the leadership with
knowledgeable users. It also requires willingness on the part of users to
learn it and use it. Not sure T&T has either interest. T&T's sole advantage
is it's simplicity of use. Difficulties with searches, archives and posting
pictures are largely accepted and ignored. People just ask the same old
questions again and again, and for the most part, responders are kind enough
and generous enough to simply respond again. If you look at the data (actual
message traffic in our years of archives) you'll see several topics that
routinely come up every few months, including this one, about 6 months ago. A
good search capability would remedy that, but then, individual users would
have to know how to do searches, and many T&T folks proudly assert that they
are not computer literate and intend to stay that way (I believe we've seen it
in this thread already). In fact, computer related topics related to boating
apps have actually been discouraged on this list. I and others have been
advised to "take your Windows question to a Windows forum," even though the
question was unique to an ECS app, or GPS setup, or software hangs. I have an
open question now on searching the T&T archives (not getting hits on keywords
using Google search) that one of the administrators agreed to follow up on. I
have been waiting on that for several weeks, and although many people have
reported the same problem searching the archives, I believe its out-of-sight
and out-of-mind at this point.

Nevertheless, T&T as-is works for a lot of people. I think it has a lot of
value, even with it's severe limitations.

If you want fora, there are plenty out there. Incidentally, I am not
overwhelmingly convinced they're that much better; they just have different
limitations. I didn't personally think much of the seriousness of the
"viaduct, vi not a chicken" response, but in the context of the different
strengths and weaknesses of mail lists vs. fora, it does have merit.

My advice: don't tinker with success.

Jim

Peg and Jim Healy aboard Sanctuary
Currently at Belhaven, NC
Monk 36 Hull #132
MMSI #367042570
AGLCA #3767
MTOA #3436

Jim, Thanks for the thoughtful and constructive response. It sure contrasts one nasty private email I received, presumably not from the welcoming committee. I guess I'd summarize the collective responses as saying "Yes, we understand the limitations of a list, but really like the simplicity, and on balance choose to stick with a list." That's fine, I fully accept it, and hope to continue to participate in that context. One person said to me "If you don't like lists then why did you sign up?". To me, it's about content first, and format second. The content on this list is good - that's why I signed up and why I continue to participate - even though I think it could be even more useful in a different format. Regarding taxonomy, I agree it doesn't go well with any forum or list partly because they are intended to be free-form. That said, good search capabilities can make up for a lot of evil in the taxonomy department. In the forum world, different sites take different approaches to organization, as I'm sure you know. One, YachtForum.com<http://YachtForum.com> I think, is so granularly organized that it's nearly useless. On the other end of the spectrum (sort of), there is another site unrelated to boats that has taken an interesting approach. They have a fairly conventional forum structure, but also have a Wiki "manual" that is evolving nicely, and is a structured, well organized manual on the subject matter constructed from content from the forums, creating an organized presentation of the communities collective wisdom. Anyway, I'm not suggesting T&T do any of this - I just find it interesting. OK, back to my stabilizers. There's work to be done and a launch date to meet..... Peter On Apr 28, 2011, at 10:45 AM, Jim Healy wrote: Peter, You asked a serious question, so I will attempt a serious answer. I mean no personal disrespect to any persons with my observations, following. My comments are about the "system" that is T&T; a system comprised of interacting and overlapping human and technological components. I believe my summary is accurate and reflects reality, but I acknowledge some of my comments may sound harsh, particularly in email form. In watching this T&T list operate over the past several years, it seems to me there is strong resistance to ideas about changing it, and rigid adherence to "rules" laid down by it's leaders (owners), some of which make only partial sense. This has driven away some major contributors over time, and that outcome seems acceptable to list leaders and is tolerated by us, all of us, the list's users. The design point of this list - defacto, just the standard of its day - is as a collecting point for posing and responding to random topics in random order. Resistance to change is human factors in nature, on the part of both the people who run the list and those of us who use it; it's not about technology. Fundamentally, the vast majority of users feel "it's OK." Creating an effective forum is *very difficult.* To work effectively, a forum has to have a complete, robust taxonomy. That necessitates a very substantial startup and learning curve just to determine, organize and codify topic categories. That could be done here. The data to construct a taxonomy is present in the many years of archives we have. But there's no interest in doing it. No desire. There's no vision and little appreciation of how it could be better, and the intellectual "cost" of entry is high. I believe you participate in the AGLCA forum, so you know that forum's taxonomy is not very robust. The vast majority of posts wind up in the "general" category. Their audience turns over quickly, so users learning a complex taxonomy is not likely to happen. Developing an effective taxonomy requires many hours of thoughtful consideration behind the scenes, and collegial discussion and open mindedness on the part of the leadership with knowledgeable users. It also requires willingness on the part of users to learn it and use it. Not sure T&T has either interest. T&T's sole advantage is it's simplicity of use. Difficulties with searches, archives and posting pictures are largely accepted and ignored. People just ask the same old questions again and again, and for the most part, responders are kind enough and generous enough to simply respond again. If you look at the data (actual message traffic in our years of archives) you'll see several topics that routinely come up every few months, including this one, about 6 months ago. A good search capability would remedy that, but then, individual users would have to know how to do searches, and many T&T folks proudly assert that they are not computer literate and intend to stay that way (I believe we've seen it in this thread already). In fact, computer related topics related to boating apps have actually been discouraged on this list. I and others have been advised to "take your Windows question to a Windows forum," even though the question was unique to an ECS app, or GPS setup, or software hangs. I have an open question now on searching the T&T archives (not getting hits on keywords using Google search) that one of the administrators agreed to follow up on. I have been waiting on that for several weeks, and although many people have reported the same problem searching the archives, I believe its out-of-sight and out-of-mind at this point. Nevertheless, T&T as-is works for a lot of people. I think it has a lot of value, even with it's severe limitations. If you want fora, there are plenty out there. Incidentally, I am not overwhelmingly convinced they're that much better; they just have different limitations. I didn't personally think much of the seriousness of the "viaduct, vi not a chicken" response, but in the context of the different strengths and weaknesses of mail lists vs. fora, it does have merit. My advice: don't tinker with success. Jim Peg and Jim Healy aboard Sanctuary Currently at Belhaven, NC Monk 36 Hull #132 MMSI #367042570 AGLCA #3767 MTOA #3436

SW

Scott Welch

Thu, Apr 28, 2011 6:09 PM

I too will attempt a serious reply.

Let me first state my qualifications. I own a trawler, and I've been using
this list for over 8 years. I'm certainly not the largest contributor, but
I'm not a total lurker, either. I've subscribed to other mailing lists as
well. I'm also in the software business, and it just so happens that for the
past 21 years I've built collaboration/forum/knowledge management software
(some of you may have used an early product of mine, FirstClass, which still
has several million users). I've also tested many other collaboration
products.

Here's what I've got to say:

Mail lists definitely have pluses and minuses. On the plus side, there's not
much of a learning curve. On the minus side, they tend to pollute your
mailbox. This can be addressed with clever filtering, but that's typically
out of the comfort zone for typical users.

One big advantage of a mail list is that it may be stored locally (on your
computer) and hence kept accessible even when you are disconnected. This was
really important 10 or even 5 years ago, but not so much any more.

Good forum/collaboration software definitely has some advantages as well.
However, even as a vendor of such software I'll say that the advantages tend
to be more obvious when you are in an environment with many, many
simultaneous forums on-the-go (for example, in education you might have a
forum for each course you are enrolled in). For participating in a single
forum, the overhead (having to log in) is not worth the payback.
Now, what both forum software and mail lists are really, really poor at is
converting discussions into knowledge. Hence the endless discussions of 2 vs
20 microns, rules of the road, etc. There no easy way to "save" or "convert"
this information from a thread into permanent knowlege.

The other obvious candidate for knowledge management is a Wiki. This is
great for collating knowledge, but really falls down on the collaboration
side.

This is actually a very active area of R&D in the software world, and in
fact at my last company we built a product that attempted to do this very
thing, albeit in a corporate setting.

So, what should we be doing with T&T? Well, the list as it stands more or
less does the job. However, I'd suggest that you all might want to check out
a new product named "Quora". This is a very cool, very interesting way to
solve the discussion/knowledge problem, and it's totally free. You can sign
up at www.quora.com and just for fun I have created a new question on (what
else) fuel filter micron ratings. Check it out:
http://www.quora.com/When-you-have-two-fuel-filters-on-your-diesel-engine-should-they-both-have-the-same-micron-rating

I have no connection whatsoever to Quora (bummer, since it looks like they
could be the next Facebook) but I do like what they are doing.

Scott Welch
Island Eagle

I too will attempt a serious reply. Let me first state my qualifications. I own a trawler, and I've been using this list for over 8 years. I'm certainly not the largest contributor, but I'm not a total lurker, either. I've subscribed to other mailing lists as well. I'm also in the software business, and it just so happens that for the past 21 years I've built collaboration/forum/knowledge management software (some of you may have used an early product of mine, FirstClass, which still has several million users). I've also tested many other collaboration products. Here's what I've got to say: Mail lists definitely have pluses and minuses. On the plus side, there's not much of a learning curve. On the minus side, they tend to pollute your mailbox. This can be addressed with clever filtering, but that's typically out of the comfort zone for typical users. One big advantage of a mail list is that it may be stored locally (on your computer) and hence kept accessible even when you are disconnected. This was really important 10 or even 5 years ago, but not so much any more. Good forum/collaboration software definitely has some advantages as well. However, even as a vendor of such software I'll say that the advantages tend to be more obvious when you are in an environment with many, many simultaneous forums on-the-go (for example, in education you might have a forum for each course you are enrolled in). For participating in a single forum, the overhead (having to log in) is not worth the payback. Now, what both forum software and mail lists are really, really poor at is converting discussions into knowledge. Hence the endless discussions of 2 vs 20 microns, rules of the road, etc. There no easy way to "save" or "convert" this information from a thread into permanent knowlege. The other obvious candidate for knowledge management is a Wiki. This is great for collating knowledge, but really falls down on the collaboration side. This is actually a very active area of R&D in the software world, and in fact at my last company we built a product that attempted to do this very thing, albeit in a corporate setting. So, what should we be doing with T&T? Well, the list as it stands more or less does the job. However, I'd suggest that you all might want to check out a new product named "Quora". This is a very cool, very interesting way to solve the discussion/knowledge problem, and it's totally free. You can sign up at www.quora.com and just for fun I have created a new question on (what else) fuel filter micron ratings. Check it out: http://www.quora.com/When-you-have-two-fuel-filters-on-your-diesel-engine-should-they-both-have-the-same-micron-rating I have no connection whatsoever to Quora (bummer, since it looks like they could be the next Facebook) but I do like what they are doing. Scott Welch Island Eagle

P

Paige

Fri, Apr 29, 2011 12:12 AM

On 28/04/2011 18:43, Peter Hayden wrote:

Thanks for the thoughtful and constructive response. It sure contrasts one
nasty private email I received, presumably not from the welcoming committee.

Peter,

I'm sorry that you've received unpleasant emails, this place is normally
quite friendly.
I think that the 'list' format of T&T serves a need, if it didn't, like
other internet ventures that are past their sell by date, it would
wither and die. There is one very succesful forum with at least a small
part of it given over to motor cruisers 'Cruisers Forum'.
George also started a Forum but it seems to be largely unsuccessful in
attracting a contributing audience. I'm of the mind that says 'don't
fix it if it ain't broke'. Of course, the net being open to everyone,
you could start your own venture.

Paige

On 28/04/2011 18:43, Peter Hayden wrote: > Thanks for the thoughtful and constructive response. It sure contrasts one > nasty private email I received, presumably not from the welcoming committee. Peter, I'm sorry that you've received unpleasant emails, this place is normally quite friendly. I think that the 'list' format of T&T serves a need, if it didn't, like other internet ventures that are past their sell by date, it would wither and die. There is one very succesful forum with at least a small part of it given over to motor cruisers 'Cruisers Forum'. George also started a Forum but it seems to be largely unsuccessful in attracting a contributing audience. I'm of the mind that says 'don't fix it if it ain't broke'. Of course, the net being open to everyone, you could start your own venture. Paige

PH

Peter Hayden

Fri, Apr 29, 2011 12:32 AM

No worries about the nasty emails - I've been called way worse :)

Yes, I've found Cruisers Forum and find it quite good. That's where I've
started a thread on the installation of stabilizers on my boat. There are
lots of pictures, so it's a good venue. I've found others too, including the
Great Loop forum, the Grand Banks Owners Association forum, and others. It's
great that so many are available, each with its own strengths and weaknesses.

Starting another forum is not something I'll do. I actually think the overall
boating dialogue would benefit from consolidation of forums and lists, not
proliferation of more. Too many lack critical mass of participation and
dialogue. It sounds like that's what happened to trawlerforum.

On Apr 28, 2011, at 8:12 PM, Paige wrote:

On 28/04/2011 18:43, Peter Hayden wrote:

Thanks for the thoughtful and constructive response. It sure contrasts

one

nasty private email I received, presumably not from the welcoming

committee.

Peter,

I'm sorry that you've received unpleasant emails, this place is normally
quite friendly.
I think that the 'list' format of T&T serves a need, if it didn't, like
other internet ventures that are past their sell by date, it would
wither and die. There is one very succesful forum with at least a small
part of it given over to motor cruisers 'Cruisers Forum'.
George also started a Forum but it seems to be largely unsuccessful in
attracting a contributing audience. I'm of the mind that says 'don't
fix it if it ain't broke'. Of course, the net being open to everyone,
you could start your own venture.

Paige

http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change

email address, etc) go to:
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.

No worries about the nasty emails - I've been called way worse :) Yes, I've found Cruisers Forum and find it quite good. That's where I've started a thread on the installation of stabilizers on my boat. There are lots of pictures, so it's a good venue. I've found others too, including the Great Loop forum, the Grand Banks Owners Association forum, and others. It's great that so many are available, each with its own strengths and weaknesses. Starting another forum is not something I'll do. I actually think the overall boating dialogue would benefit from consolidation of forums and lists, not proliferation of more. Too many lack critical mass of participation and dialogue. It sounds like that's what happened to trawlerforum. On Apr 28, 2011, at 8:12 PM, Paige wrote: > On 28/04/2011 18:43, Peter Hayden wrote: >> Thanks for the thoughtful and constructive response. It sure contrasts one >> nasty private email I received, presumably not from the welcoming committee. > > Peter, > > I'm sorry that you've received unpleasant emails, this place is normally > quite friendly. > I think that the 'list' format of T&T serves a need, if it didn't, like > other internet ventures that are past their sell by date, it would > wither and die. There is one very succesful forum with at least a small > part of it given over to motor cruisers 'Cruisers Forum'. > George also started a Forum but it seems to be largely unsuccessful in > attracting a contributing audience. I'm of the mind that says 'don't > fix it if it ain't broke'. Of course, the net being open to everyone, > you could start your own venture. > > Paige > _______________________________________________ > http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering > > Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World > Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.

RL

Roger Lalonde

Fri, Apr 29, 2011 3:41 AM

To: trawlers-and-trawlering@lists.samurai.com
Subject: Re: T&T: Why a list and not a forum?

On 28/04/2011 18:43, Peter Hayden wrote:

Thanks for the thoughtful and constructive response. It sure contrasts
one
nasty private email I received, presumably not from the welcoming
committee.

To all,

I have joined and contributed since 2005...??? if my memory is stillllll
good.

I have enjoyed providing assistance where I was competent enough to do so
and (got paid) received many thanks over the years.
I have also learned from some of the advice given on T&T

For those who have send private or public nasty emails... to who ever...
remember that someday you will be the target...

This T&T list is meant to be help full and informative and sometimes kidding
amongst friends and I support this 125%.

For those who want to have fun, you know what you have to do.
For those who want to learn, you know what you have to do.
For those who want to be hurt full go park yourself in the corner.

Now come on and enjoy... settle this and move on. I hope T&T stays until I
die and more...

Regards,

Roger Lalonde
Summerstowm ON Canada

To: trawlers-and-trawlering@lists.samurai.com Subject: Re: T&T: Why a list and not a forum? On 28/04/2011 18:43, Peter Hayden wrote: > Thanks for the thoughtful and constructive response. It sure contrasts > one > nasty private email I received, presumably not from the welcoming > committee. To all, I have joined and contributed since 2005...??? if my memory is stillllll good. I have enjoyed providing assistance where I was competent enough to do so and (got paid) received many thanks over the years. I have also learned from some of the advice given on T&T For those who have send private or public nasty emails... to who ever... remember that someday you will be the target... This T&T list is meant to be help full and informative and sometimes kidding amongst friends and I support this 125%. For those who want to have fun, you know what you have to do. For those who want to learn, you know what you have to do. For those who want to be hurt full go park yourself in the corner. Now come on and enjoy... settle this and move on. I hope T&T stays until I die and more... Regards, Roger Lalonde Summerstowm ON Canada

L

LAL

Fri, Apr 29, 2011 2:10 PM

I tend to think that years ago, when bandwidth was small, modems were
slow, and attachments took hours to get, a text only mail list was the
way to share our knowledge.

If it is a forum, then you have to be on line to play and contribute.
(As I understand it)

A list still allows me to be off line, see what is written, write my
reply, and when my next opportunity to get an internet connection
shows up, transmit that reply, and get the new emails.

This list also allows one to search the archives if one choses too, to
see what was discussed before. I would think the micron rating
discussion has been archived more than a few times.

While the 'net has come to the point where we think it is available to
us 24/7, I for one do not want to be wedded to it to participate in
this type of forum. And when I am boating, I still want to participate
but somewhat on my own terms.

Lee
Izmir
Member since (I have not a clue...)

I tend to think that years ago, when bandwidth was small, modems were slow, and attachments took hours to get, a text only mail list was the way to share our knowledge. If it is a forum, then you have to be on line to play and contribute. (As I understand it) A list still allows me to be off line, see what is written, write my reply, and when my next opportunity to get an internet connection shows up, transmit that reply, and get the new emails. This list also allows one to search the archives if one choses too, to see what was discussed before. I would think the micron rating discussion has been archived more than a few times. While the 'net has come to the point where we think it is available to us 24/7, I for one do not want to be wedded to it to participate in this type of forum. And when I am boating, I still want to participate but somewhat on my own terms. Lee Izmir Member since (I have not a clue...)

PH

Peter Hayden

Sat, Apr 30, 2011 11:00 AM

I'm trying not to beat this horse any more, but let me quickly comment that
you can participate in a web forum exclusively via email, just as you
participate in this list. You can receive individual emails each time there
is a post, or you can receive a daily digest, exactly like the list. And you
can reply to those emails and/or digest to create new posting entries. A big
part of my point at the beginning is that you can participate in a web forum
exactly (well almost exactly) as you are today, via email, without logging in
and waiting on a slow connection. Or you can use the web via a browser. The
bottom line is you get your cake and eat it too.

OK, I am officially walking away from this dead horse and promise to not
mention you-know-what again.

On Apr 29, 2011, at 10:10 AM, LAL wrote:

I tend to think that years ago, when bandwidth was small, modems were
slow, and attachments took hours to get, a text only mail list was the
way to share our knowledge.

If it is a forum, then you have to be on line to play and contribute.
(As I understand it)

A list still allows me to be off line, see what is written, write my
reply, and when my next opportunity to get an internet connection
shows up, transmit that reply, and get the new emails.

This list also allows one to search the archives if one choses too, to
see what was discussed before. I would think the micron rating
discussion has been archived more than a few times.

While the 'net has come to the point where we think it is available to
us 24/7, I for one do not want to be wedded to it to participate in
this type of forum. And when I am boating, I still want to participate
but somewhat on my own terms.

Lee
Izmir
Member since (I have not a clue...)

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Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.

I'm trying not to beat this horse any more, but let me quickly comment that you can participate in a web forum exclusively via email, just as you participate in this list. You can receive individual emails each time there is a post, or you can receive a daily digest, exactly like the list. And you can reply to those emails and/or digest to create new posting entries. A big part of my point at the beginning is that you can participate in a web forum exactly (well almost exactly) as you are today, via email, without logging in and waiting on a slow connection. Or you can use the web via a browser. The bottom line is you get your cake and eat it too. OK, I am officially walking away from this dead horse and promise to not mention you-know-what again. On Apr 29, 2011, at 10:10 AM, LAL wrote: > I tend to think that years ago, when bandwidth was small, modems were > slow, and attachments took hours to get, a text only mail list was the > way to share our knowledge. > > If it is a forum, then you have to be on line to play and contribute. > (As I understand it) > > A list still allows me to be off line, see what is written, write my > reply, and when my next opportunity to get an internet connection > shows up, transmit that reply, and get the new emails. > > This list also allows one to search the archives if one choses too, to > see what was discussed before. I would think the micron rating > discussion has been archived more than a few times. > > While the 'net has come to the point where we think it is available to > us 24/7, I for one do not want to be wedded to it to participate in > this type of forum. And when I am boating, I still want to participate > but somewhat on my own terms. > > Lee > Izmir > Member since (I have not a clue...) > _______________________________________________ > http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering > > To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering > > Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World > Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.

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Re: T&T: Why a list and not a forum?