bad fuel?
We all read endlessly about the possibility of bad fuel and engines
shutting down or being damaged thereby.
My question is, what is the ACTUAL experience of members of the list of
getting bad diesel fuel or having trouble underway because of bad fuel?
Or a variant thereof, how about actual experience of crud on the bottom
of the tank actually fouling the system to the point where there is
trouble underway?
David Sorenson
Duluth, MN
Artery Clearing Secret
Nobel Prize Winning discovery cuts artery plaque by incredible 50%.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4c1cbdd31594f82b96m07vuc
"... how about actual experience of crud on the bottom
of the tank actually fouling the system to the point where there is
trouble underway?" David Sorenson
David:
A few years ago, we had one engine shut down when a Racor filter became
clogged with bottom of tank crud after we left Ocracoke
NC and encountered rough wave action on the Neuse River. I bought a Gulf
Coast fuel filter after that incident. We repowered last year and installed
new fuel tanks.
Reid Gantt
Atlantic 30 Vouivre
docked at Sneads Ferry NC
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"... how about actual experience of crud on the bottom
of the tank actually fouling the system to the point where there is
trouble underway?"
We put new tanks in a used boat in 2000. For 6 years we traveled up/down
Eastern coast from Montreal to Florida living aboard for about 7 months each
year, storing for the other 5 with full tanks. We bought the cheapest diesel
available along the way, running around 500 engine-hours a year. I changed
the Racors religiously, every 100 engine hours. The filters always came out
clean, never water in the bowl. Never a problem with fuel.
-- Jim
On 6/19/10 8:53 AM, "David H Sorenson" davidsorenson@juno.com wrote:
what is the ACTUAL experience of members of the list of
getting bad diesel fuel or having trouble underway because of bad fuel?
I have never had an engine stop for bad fuel...but a charter boat I owned in
the mid-80s got watery fuel in St. Thomas, USVI, and limped into Georgetown
Exuma. On MARY KATHRYN, we have 2400 gals in 4 FRP tanks in the bottom of
the bilge. Some tanks sit many months without use, Racors stay cleanish (no
rise in vacuum gauge) between oil changes (200 hrs), no fuel polishing
system other than Detroit Diesel's inbred system, I treat with Biobor.
My advice: do not spend a nickel on a fuel polishing system before you see
whether you need one. If you have metal tanks, however, watch that vacuum
gauge!
how about actual experience of crud on the bottom of the tank actually fouling
the system to the point where there is trouble underway?
I run all my tanks dry before I change to another with no evidence that crud
is ingested...but I suspect the fuel pick-ups are high...I can only pump
2150 gals when totaling empty (yeah, I did, two miles south of Coinjock.
They brought me a bit of fuel for free...and then sold me 2150 gals when we
got to the dock).
Bob
Robert Calhoun Smith, Jr.
MV MARY KATHRYN
1977 Hatteras 58 LRC
Lying South River
Annapolis, Maryland
Or a variant thereof, how about actual experience of crud on the bottom
of the tank actually fouling the system to the point where there is
trouble underway?
Our boat was 30 years old when we bought her and the age of the tanks was a
concern but we experienced no problems for the first year.
After doing some research and reading about fuel polishing systems I decided
not to install one because I just wasn't having any problems.
Then it happened. Just outside of Annapolis on a busy day with lots of large
ships around and seemingly in transit our single Lehman shut down. I don't
remember if we were in the shipping lane but we were out in the middle
somewhere with no power. We deployed the anchor on a short rode and I went
below to investigate. Discovered the racor filter was black as coal so
changed it out and was able to restart the engine pretty quickly. Brought in
the anchor and we were on our way again. I was running on the center fuel
tank so I switched to one of the saddle tanks for the remainder of the trip.
That winter I installed a Gulf Coast Filter and fuel polishing system with the
Walbro pump. The same system Will Andrews promoted. I have a nice manifold
(not like the one Rich has been talking about) so I can polish any tank, use
the GC or the Racor or both, and transfer fuel from tank to tank if I want to.
I polished and I polished and I polished. The paper towel element would get
black and I would change it. Polish some more. Change the element. Finally
the black started to turn to gray and eventually disappear. I had three tanks
to polish but I believe the real culprit was the center tank, not the saddle
tanks. The previous owner only used the center tank for the generator so it
was not really circulated very much.
Since installation of the fuel polishing system I have had zero problems. I
polish on a regular basis and change the element once a year. I try to polish
when we are underway especially if we are in a little chop as the fuel is
getting stirred up. Since installation of the fuel polishing system I have
only put Marvel Mystery Oil in the fuel, no other additive. Since we are only
weekend cruisers my fuel tends to be in the tanks for a long while.
The fuel polishing system has given me reliability and confidence in the
onboard fuel system. I think it has been one of the best improvements I have
done.
Regards,
Andy
Andy Woods
Grand Folly
1970 Grand Banks 36 Classic
Blades, DE.
grandfolly@hotmail.com
My bad fuel experience was several years ago. A sailboat, single tank,
single Raycor, Westerbeke engine. On the return trip from Ft. Jefferson
to Key West the engine quit, the Raycor was black and the element was
contaminated with what looked like dark coffee grounds. The previous
owner had left 6 new filters (perhaps a preexisting condition) and I had
bought 2 more before finding the cache he had left. It took 7 elements
to get home. Each change involved cleaning out the sediment bowl and
priming the lift pump while rolling around, working in cramped quarters
and significant exposure to spilled diesel fuel. It was a good lesson on
the value of preventive maintenance. It was an uncomfortable but not
dangerous situation.
I rigged a fuel filter and remote pump, a temporary polishing set up,
and the fuel gradually went from black to amber. I have used Biobore
since on two boats and have not had any fuel problems. A mechanic in
Key West explained that any diesel fuel in a warm climate with any
water, even a trace, will become contaminated with bacteria and repeat
the symptoms I had. Biobore or some biocide seems to be necessary for
fuel that is stored for extended periods.
Bill
On 6/19/2010 8:53 AM, David H Sorenson wrote:
We all read endlessly about the possibility of bad fuel and engines
shutting down or being damaged thereby.
My question is, what is the ACTUAL experience of members of the list of
getting bad diesel fuel or having trouble underway because of bad fuel?
Or a variant thereof, how about actual experience of crud on the bottom
of the tank actually fouling the system to the point where there is
trouble underway?
David Sorenson
Duluth, MN
Artery Clearing Secret
Nobel Prize Winning discovery cuts artery plaque by incredible 50%.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4c1cbdd31594f82b96m07vuc
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering
To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering
Trawlers& Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
--
Bill Pardee
Hypocrisy is a tribute vice pays to virtue
My question is, what is the ACTUAL experience of members of the list of
getting bad diesel fuel or having trouble underway because of bad fuel?
With about 5500 hours on a Lehman single, no sign of water in fuel ever,
and no engine stops for fuel related reasons.
PNW cruising only.
Twice paid for professional fuel and tank cleaning, for no reason other than
it seemed prudent.
Little water reported each time. Good amount of sludge though.
No additives of any kind ever.
Always leave the boat with topped tanks if it will not be used for a while.
To the comment of diesel being hydroscopic: In a near full tank, the amount
of air change
(to get new air with new moisture content) is very low. Yes the fuel is
hydroscopic but it can't get
water out of nothing. Once the airborne moisture is absorbed the exchange
through the vent would
be very low. And even after airborne moisture has equalized with the fuel's
propensity to absorb it,
this does not mean the water will precipitate. Only after the diesel is past
the saturation point of dissolved
H2O molecules, will there be a risk of precipitate found in the bowl unless
there is actual real water coming
in to the tanks (via a leak on the top of the tank). Visual water precip is
a sign that
the diesel is at saturation (in a stable system). Either the fuel went in
the tank saturated or the atmospherics
in the tank (both condensation and high moisture in the air) are the cause.
With engines that have a high by-pass of diesel, the temperature of the tank
and diesel will rise significantly during long runs.
If the tank is low, the evening cool down will precipitate the airborne
moisture.
If you have a long run home and do not top-up, and the tank cools down a
lot, the air will lose
moisture on the tank walls and into the diesel.
Best plan is to top up immediately on your return home.
I am guessing that Marin's airplane story did not involve diesels with fuel
returns to the tanks. In any case the fuel-to-the-tabs
every night would have cooled the tank and fuel such that overnight air
exchange would be minimal. Even then, as he reports,
the difference in Hawaii (small water amounts detected) and mainland (none
detected) could be due to the temp of the fuel
in storage, the ambient humidity, fuel age, different venting systems in the
tanks and other unknown factors. Nothing conclusive,
especially in that it was av-gas, not diesel.
...just an opinion.
Richard
"Touch wood"
As far as I know I have not taken on any "bad fuel", defined as contaminated
by free water or sediment in the 4 years we've had our boat.
I try to fuel at locations that move high volumes but are also the cheapest
I can find like Ballard Oil at FMB.
My fuel tanks are 20 years old, steel. I added drains to them at the bottom
by replacing steel plugs with brass valves....only inspected twice but no
free water/gunk (yet)
My single Racor's do have some black grainy residue on the vanes and a light
dusting in the bowl bottom....no water...to me this is normal for old
filters.
I've changed these filters yearly more or less, and have taken out normal
looking used filters, to me......no black goop.
I fill up periodically, once or thrice a year with fresh fuel and have tried
once or twice to have fuel returned to just one tank to use up the older
stuff before a fill.
I do no special polishing, just the normal return lines from the CAT3208s to
the tanks which does actually polish a lot of the fuel and keeps it well
circulated.
I also run with my crossover tank valves open...something I think I will
think about closing but as mentioned by another post, I usually fill up both
tanks at the same time so the chance of a fuel problem coming from only in
one tanks is unlikely. (I'll qualify this that if a slug of water comes
from the fill up, it may be an event to one tank and not the other) Why not
keep the crossover line closed then?
The boat grew up in Michigan for 15 years and was stored inside for probably
6 months or more each winter. I'm guessing with various fuel levels over
the years.
The boat has had some significant turbulent events.....rocking horse action
for multiple days on Lake Michigan, large swells and confused seas near
Carrabelle, etc so I think the opportunity to stir up the sediment and/or
water on the bottom have been there a few different times but no significant
change/buildup on the racor filters.
My fuel tanks are in the engine room so they do heat up regularly to engine
temperature which can be over 100 degrees.....
And I'm now on the hard for 6 months in Florida, so the fuel is at ambient
air temp...higher than normal 60 in the midwest but probably not much, maybe
80 .
Now my one concern has been the presence of condensation (water droplets) on
the fuel cap of the deck fills.
Whenever I open these fills, there is some condensation on the underside of
the fill cap. I wipe it up with a paper towel.
This has not translated to free water in the tank bottom or racor bowls as
far as I can tell.
The posting below made me think that the heating of the fuel tanks may in
fact be driving some moisture out of the fuel creating some minimal
condensation.
Unfortunately, fuel tanks don't really breathe out the vent lines so not
much of this moisture is being expelled. Topping up would help but I don't
do that.
Anyway, I do feel fortunate so far "touch wood" that I've avoided fuel
problems that can obviously happen, particularly with a 20 year old boat,
twin 300 gallon tanks, random fuel providers and a history of storage
events.
Someday I may even open up the inspection ports and take a look inside!
Jim and Vaughn
TWINS
Visual water precip is a sign that
the diesel is at saturation (in a stable system). Either the fuel went in
the tank saturated or the atmospherics
in the tank (both condensation and high moisture in the air) are the
cause.
With engines that have a high by-pass of diesel, the temperature of the
tank and diesel will rise significantly during long runs.
If the tank is low, the evening cool down will precipitate the airborne
moisture.
If you have a long run home and do not top-up, and the tank cools down a
lot, the air will lose
moisture on the tank walls and into the diesel.
Best plan is to top up immediately on your return home.
Richard and all,
Which supports my theory that condensation and/or hygroscopic migration is a
minor factor compared to mechanical moisture ingress: getting a load of bad
fuel or fill O-ring leakage or some other massive H2O intrusion.
Supposing we took our Marin's fictitious Cessna with half filled tanks and
checked the fuel each morning to find a half teaspoon of water in a 50 gal
system. See this alla time. Multiply this by 180 would give us a 6 month yield
of 90 tsp or roughly a half quart of water over 6 months.
Scale this up to a 200 gallon diesel tank and we see maybe 2 quarts of water
in 6 months. Appreciable but not un-manageable. This presumes no engine
activity during this period. Each of my 215 gal saddle tanks is around 16" x
3' x 4' so 2 quarts on the bottom would scarcely rise to my polishing pickups
let alone the machinery PU's. So. . .
After 6 months, I decide to go somewhere. Turn on the <1 micron polishing
system, crank the mains and go. As the boat rocks and reels along, the water
steadily gets sucked into the polishing or machinery PU's and is trapped in
the sediment/water bowls of the GCF F-1 or the Racor 500's. Few days and
mostly it's gone.
Now, a slight topic change about fuel treatment chemicals. When I had the
water contamination problem, at the suggestion of a knowledgeable friend, I
added the prescribed quantity of L-601 Excelube Marine fuel conditioner. Made
in Baton Rouge, it's the preferred fuel additive for crew boats, shrimpers and
others who make a living on the water. Oil boom pullers. http://is.gd/cWpny
In theory, this stuff "bonds" with water and flows through the filters and is
burned. This was not my experience.
It formed a slurry with the water and trash that seemed to float, cloud-like,
at different levels in the tank according to fuel temp and boat motion. My
machinery pickups sucked the stuff up before the lower polishing ones did. It
did not stay on the bottom like water. For quite a long time, this gunk showed
up in my Racor bowls- foul looking glycerin textured solution-- before the F-1
"saw" it. Got into one of my Floscan senders and glued the paddle wheel
closed, shutting down my port engine. Not the water. . . .the "fix". Had to
pull the entire unit and carefully clean the paddle and accumulator of this
slurry. Ugh. Hate to think what this stuff would'a done in an injector but it
never got that far. By steadily emptying sediment bowls and changing filters,
I was able to purge my system and I once again have cherry cider fuel.
I have a couple gallons of this biocide/cetane enhancer/acid reducer/seal
lubricator aboard and they live in my paint locker. See me in the vicinity and
I'll give'em to you. Little MMO in my fuel and I'm happy.
I've sat a couple years with stored $2.25 diesel and motored days at a time
with $3.00 diesel and this is my one fuel horror story.
Regards,
Larry
M/V Cigano, Prairie 47
Currently lying: Key West Harbor