TWL: RE: Navigational Rules in General
Discussion of rules aside, it still blows my mind when sailboaters or
small boat fishermen argue for their right to die under a freighter's
bows.
We (the CG Auxiliary) do "Operation Make Way" on the Columbia River for
months each season. The sole purpose of this mission is to move
anchored and trolling fishermen out of the path of oncoming freighters
and barges. In spite of this, one or two people die (at least) every
year for failing to get out of the way. In one case last year, a father
lost his son. Can you imagine?
I simply do not understand. Do these folks think that these commercial
vessels can stop? Do the think they can maneuver around them? The
commercial skippers tell me that they can see this coming from a mile or
more away and there is absolutely nothing that they can do except lean
of their horn (5 blasts, 5 blasts, 5 blasts over and over). You can
hear the emergency signals echoing morning and night during the season.
It must be agonizing to be bearing down on a little open boat in
slow-motion and getting no response.
I have personally been involved where we were pleading with a guy to get
his boat off anchor and out of the path of a large tug and barge which
was bearing right on him, but he refused. He claimed he had as much
right to the river as the barge and blah, blah. We ran out of time and
had to bail-out and get out of the away ourselves. The barge ran right
over his little open boat. He surfaced after the barge had passed and
we hauled him out (he was very lucky). He was still cursing the tug and
barge! In this case the Sheriff took over. Don't know what happened
but probably nothing.
It's just incredible to me. We get all kinds of abuse for moving these
guys when we are trying to save their lives.
Joe Engel
Portland, Oregon
That's why I have an additional nav rule I follow: "Big guy always
wins/has the right of way". As I'm sure you can imagine, I had people on
this list argue this one with me last time I posted it, citing that I
would be at fault if I was the Stand On vessel and was involved in a
collision if I didn't hold course/speed. I'll let them defend that to
their graves... Meantime, I'll just stay out of the way.
Joe Engel wrote:
Discussion of rules aside, it still blows my mind when sailboaters or
small boat fishermen argue for their right to die under a freighter's
bows.
--
Keith
If you do a good job and work hard, you may get a job with a better
company someday!"
Keith,
I've heard it called the "tonnage wins" rule. Let's not forget the rule on
"vessels restricted in their ability to manuver". I think that's what
sailing vessels fall under in their assertion of stand on vessel. Is the
freighter less able to change course than the sail boat??
Cheers,
Dick Schroder
43' Gulfstar trawler
On the Ohio river in Indiana
oilpans@thepoint.net
"Beer is proof God loves us and wants us to be happy" BF
----- Original Message -----
From: "Keith" klemmons@airmail.net
To: trawler-world-list@samurai.com
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 4:31 PM
Subject: Re: TWL: RE: Navigational Rules in General
That's why I have an additional nav rule I follow: "Big guy always
wins/has the right of way". As I'm sure you can imagine, I had people on
this list argue this one with me last time I posted it, citing that I
would be at fault if I was the Stand On vessel and was involved in a
collision if I didn't hold course/speed. I'll let them defend that to
their graves... Meantime, I'll just stay out of the way.
-----Original Message-----
From: Dick Schroder
Subject: Re: TWL: RE: Navigational Rules in General
I've heard it called the "tonnage wins" rule. Let's not forget the rule on
"vessels restricted in their ability to manuver". I think that's what
sailing vessels fall under in their assertion of stand on vessel. Is the
freighter less able to change course than the sail boat??...............
Dick,
Think about what you just wrote. A sailboat can typically turn a circle in two (short)
boat lengths. The freighter will take a mile to make the turn. Now, who really has the
ability to maneuver?
If the freighter tries to avoid you, goes out of the channel, grounds, and spills oil as
a result, the captain and/or pilot may well have an action against their license. If
they instead hit you and run you over when you got in their way while they were
constrained by their draft to the channel, they will have a bit of paperwork to do after
the accident, but their license, and their livelihood, will still be intact. Guess which
course of action they are going to take?
Instead of thinking about far fetched interpretations of the Rules, think about how the
courts have actually interpreted them, and how the large commercial traffic will
respond - then keep the heck out of the way!
Remember the Rule Of Gross Tonnage!
Cheers,
Kevin
www.BoatMoves.com
I would think that the argument with your position is that the position is
simply stupid. What you should do is comply with the rules at least until
they put your boat at risk. Then you do whatever you need to do to protect
your boat. You will I think find that such a course is, in fact, in
compliance with the rules.
I suppose the right to follow a stupid strategy is ingrained in our
character or our constitution or something. But note that such a rule
busting strategy is, basically, stupid and dangereous and leads inevitably
into the awful outcomes that come from unintended consequences.
I hope you practice these self developed rules somewhere I ain't.
Jim
That's why I have an additional nav rule I follow: "Big guy always
wins/has the right of way". As I'm sure you can imagine, I had people on
this list argue this one with me last time I posted it, citing that I
would be at fault if I was the Stand On vessel and was involved in a
collision if I didn't hold course/speed.
company someday!"
Keith klemmons@airmail.net
At 03:31 PM 11/22/02 -0600, you wrote:
That's why I have an additional nav rule I follow: "Big guy always
wins/has the right of way". As I'm sure you can imagine, I had people on
this list argue this one with me last time I posted it, citing that I
would be at fault if I was the Stand On vessel and was involved in a
collision if I didn't hold course/speed. I'll let them defend that to
their graves... Meantime, I'll just stay out of the way.
It takes real stupidity to hold course and speed into a collision.
But, if you are the stand on vessel, note "STAND ON", and failure to stand
on will result in an accident then you are obligated
to stand on to prevent a collision and to allow the other fellow to know
where you are going so that he can manuever to prevent a collision.
If you vacillate and yield and confuse the give way vessel then you will be
at fault and you may actually have a collision or cause an accident.
Either stay well away from big vessels or follow the rules, do what you are
obligated to do.
Which is stand on when the rules require it, give way when required or
don't get so close that the rules come into play.
In other words, if you are going to allow getting close to a big vessel,
then follow the rules to the letter, which includes taking whatever action
is necessary to avoid a collision or causing an accident when all the usual
rules WILL NO longer prevent such from happening.
It is a major mistake to assume more or less importance to the size of the
other vessel, except where you take that size into account in terms of
their inability to manuever as provided for in the rules.
In words there are not 2 sets of rules. One for small boats and one for large.
It is absolutely vital that everybody plays by the same set of rules. The
rules are in our minds, not in the book.
Keith is confused like a lot of people about fault. In a sense no one cares
who is at fault, but just whether you avoid having collisions or being the
cause of an accident. After all you could possibly avoid having a
collision, but end up causing an accident and at root, that is what the
rules are intended to prevent from happening. He has or at least has
expressed a notion that if you do whatever you want, then you won't be at
fault or have or cause an accident. When in fact the rules and the court
interpretation of them do not allow deviations. For the simple reason that
excuses like this will not hold up in court because the record will show
that it is almost impossible have an accident by following the rules and
any failure however minor that leads to an accident will lay the blame
right at your feet.
The courts have often ruled that any action to prevent a collision must be
made while there is still time to do so. This fits into Keith's notions
about avoiding big ships. Just stay away from them.
I am pretty sure that whatever disagreement there is about this is more a
matter of semantics than real. But words are always hard to get right and
meanings are lost more often than not.
The courts have ruled that if everyone were to follow the rules faithfully,
there would be no accidents except those the result of an act of god.
Capt. Mike Maurice
Wilsonville, Near Portland Oregon
Friday, November 22, 2002, 6:46:03 PM, Michael wrote:
Keith klemmons@airmail.net
At 03:31 PM 11/22/02 -0600, you wrote:
That's why I have an additional nav rule I follow: "Big guy always
wins/has the right of way". As I'm sure you can imagine, I had people on
this list argue this one with me last time I posted it, citing that I
would be at fault if I was the Stand On vessel and was involved in a
collision if I didn't hold course/speed. I'll let them defend that to
their graves... Meantime, I'll just stay out of the way.
It takes real stupidity to hold course and speed into a collision.
But, if you are the stand on vessel, note "STAND ON", and failure to stand
on will result in an accident then you are obligated
to stand on to prevent a collision and to allow the other fellow to know
where you are going so that he can manuever to prevent a collision.
The Stand-On vessel is not obligated to stand on into a collision.
Rule 17 (Action by stand-on vessel) says "(a)(ii)The latter vessel(the
stand-on vessel) may however take action to avoid collision by her
manoeuvre alone, as soon as it becomes apparent to her that the vessel
required to keep out of the way is not taking appropriate action in
compliance with the rules."
--
Peter Bennett, VE7CEI Vancouver, B.C., Canada
GPS and NMEA info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter
Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver-webpages.com/van-ps
(Joe) It's just incredible to me. We get all kinds of abuse for moving
these
guys when we are trying to save their lives.
Sometimes our "gene pool" finds a way to keep itself healthy--He was
clearly a candidate for the Darwin awards....
When I used to do the AUXOP patrols, I'd simply make my point, then, if
the boater continued to act insane, I'd ask for next of kin contact
information... Sometimes it would work, sometimes not.
Regards....
Phil Rosch
M/V "Curmudgeon" Marine Trader 44 TC
Currently Moored in Isle of Palms, SC
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't
do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away
from
the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream.
Discover." - Mark Twain