PPM - how big?
While it is true there is no perfect boat for everyone, there are many
common points of interest that make up each boat. This list exists to talk
about passagemakers, not just electrical systems. So I've been sketching
and considering PPM size.
I'm for moderation in these choices. Not too long, not too wide or high,
not too heavy or light, and certainly not too complex. (what the heck does
that mean?) While following along I've noted advocates of various extremes
(narrow and heavy?). I believe Windhorse and Convergence are extreme
passagemakers for most of us due to both initial cost and high operating
costs. It is much easier to get all you want in a larger vessel with
unlimited budget. But most of us do have a limit on the budget, for
whatever reason. The smaller boat is a smaller investment; smaller
investment equals a wider potential audience making the boat (perhaps)
closer to perfect?
When thinking about minimum passagemakers, I always look back at a design by
Phil Bolger done in about 1987 and published in Small Boat Journal. She was
a 31' by 8' ocean crossing powerboat. The boat had minimal accommodations
for two wrapped around a 27 HP engine in the bow and a 325 fuel tank
amidships. Pretty Spartan living and not acceptable to most of us for full
time cruising, but she would get you there. The little Willard Vega 30' is
another minimum passagemaker that can get you across the ocean, but not with
tons of space or comfort.
So the ideal for many might be somewhere larger than 30' but less than 80'?
Length is attractive to the NA because of the easy speed (reduced
wavemaking) and added comfort due to bridging wave groups. I also strongly
believe in reducing height and volume of the boat by minimizing
double-decking. No two story houses! Accommodation close to or on the
waterline keeps motion to a minimum, reduced motion means less crew fatigue,
and that's what we're really after. Again the smaller boat, with minimum
deckhouse, means a smaller investment.
It seems that for this (PUP) group the usual permanent crew is a couple,
with one or two friends joining the ship usually for short periods. So
ideal accommodation includes one very comfortable and private stateroom for
permanent occupation, including en-suite head with shower/tub. The guests
can make do without a private stateroom, using occasional berths in the
pilothouse or saloon seems to be quite acceptable to most. In my experience
it is often desired that the guests have their own head, so the PPM has two
heads. This is less than ideal for the maintainer and cleaner of these
heads, but it's probably best in view of crew happiness.
It comes down to a list of things the PPM must contain. There must be an
owner's cabin with head, there must be a saloon and galley, there must be a
pilothouse and an engineroom, there must also be a guest head, and there
must be some outside relaxing space. There must also be room for food,
fuel, and water storage, spare parts and tools, and reasonable access to
systems for maintenance. My feeling is that the minimum length to enclose
all this is about 40'. While 50' would be nice, any talk of 50' boats
raises the investment substantially. Building in North America will put a
50' budget north of $1m fairly easily, going down to 40' will reduce the
volume (weight) by over 40%, and materials and labour equally.
My best to all, Tad
www.tadroberts.ca http://www.tadroberts.ca/
www.passagemakerlite.com http://www.passagemakerlite.com/
[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of image001.gif]
Tad said:
While 50' would be nice, any talk of 50' boats raises the investment
substantially. Building in North America will put a 50' budget north of $1m
fairly easily
REPLY:
That is not necessarily accurate. I am building a 53' Aluminum passagemaker
in Nova Scotia (which is a little more expensive than steel). I can tell
you from real live, recent experience -- since I have been writing the
checks or wiring the money -- that my final build price will be less that a
million, and when I started the exchange rate was much worse than it now is.
It can be frustrating to find the correct builder, and that is a process in
and of itself. I did get bids and estimates for more than a million (one
was for a lot more). The two estimates from the two builders I narrowed the
list down to were both under a million dollars (and I am going the aluminum,
controllable pitched prop, wing engine, flat screen, and nice electronics
route; it is not an extravagant build, but it is far from minimalist).
I visited and interviewed both (which is an absolute must, of course, when
you start building a "one of a kind, never been built before" boat). When I
selected my builder I was convinced, and still am, that I has found the
right builder, with motivated and dedicated owners and professional, hard
working employees, who would work with me to do everything possible to get
the price to a reasonable figure.
I will share a quick story with you that I have not even told my builder.
It was one of those moments when I knew that I made the right builder choice
Very shortly after construction began and the frames started going up I
got a call from the builder asking me if I could come up to talk about some
design and build issues (remember how I mentioned how they warned me that
some things would look differently in 3D than what you may have envisioned
by looking at a 2D drawing). Anyway, when I went up to Canada to see what
was up and walked into the building where my child was being built . . .
there she was all shiny, with frames, a partial deck, etcetera.
I knew from my interview visit months and months before that the owners'
office was upstairs, and as I headed over to go see them, some guy walked up
to me and stuck out his hand to introduce himself. He was obviously an
employee and obviously a "welder type" of a guy. Anyway, he came over and
said "you must be Mr. Wagner, the owner", which I acknowledged was the case.
I thought he was just going to point out where I should go to find the
company owners and my contact, but he introduced himself, told me his name,
and -- I swear, I will never forget this -- he thanked me, actually thanked
me, for selecting the company he worked for to build my boat and told me how
proud and honored he was to build it for me. He actually used those words
-- "proud and honored." He told me that he wanted to let me know that he
and everyone else working on my boat were going to do everything possible to
make sure that they built a strong, safe, and reliable boat for me.
I am sure I thanked him and mumbled something, but I don't remember what. I
am a trial lawyer by training and profession and I am not often caught
speechless, but I was then. This was just some guy with a welding torch
getting a paycheck every two weeks. He didn't own the place; he wasn't
making big bucks or the profit; it wasn't "his" company, he was just a guy
on the line working paycheck to paycheck. I have got to tell you, I knew
right then and there that Debbie and I had selected the right builder and
that we could trust what would go on there.
That is probably a little bit afield from Tad's initial point, but if you
find the right builder with the right motivation who wants to work for a
fair price as opposed to trying to dig as deep into your pockets as they
possibly can, you can build a nice 50+ foot passagemaking-capable boat here
in North America. I know. I am doing it.
o;? o;? o;? o;?
Alan Wagner
Tampa, Florida
Building "Passage of Time" in Nova Scotia at YachtSmiths International
www.YachtSmiths.com
http://kastenmarine.com/valdemar52.htm
Hi Alan,
Thank you for your nice coments.
You know, I was just thinking....its your boat, but its our lifes work!
We truly love what we do, and a big part of that is the relationships we form along the way.
When you spend a year of your life building a boat for someone, it isn't possible not to get emotionally involved with the project.
Brian
Sent on the TELUS Mobility network with BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: "Alan" wagner.florida@verizon.net
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 11:04:51
To: passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com
Subject: [PUP] PPM - how big?
Tad said:
While 50' would be nice, any talk of 50' boats raises the investment
substantially. Building in North America will put a 50' budget north of $1m
fairly easily
REPLY:
That is not necessarily accurate. I am building a 53' Aluminum passagemaker
in Nova Scotia (which is a little more expensive than steel). I can tell
you from real live, recent experience -- since I have been writing the
checks or wiring the money -- that my final build price will be less that a
million, and when I started the exchange rate was much worse than it now is.
It can be frustrating to find the correct builder, and that is a process in
and of itself. I did get bids and estimates for more than a million (one
was for a lot more). The two estimates from the two builders I narrowed the
list down to were both under a million dollars (and I am going the aluminum,
controllable pitched prop, wing engine, flat screen, and nice electronics
route; it is not an extravagant build, but it is far from minimalist).
I visited and interviewed both (which is an absolute must, of course, when
you start building a "one of a kind, never been built before" boat). When I
selected my builder I was convinced, and still am, that I has found the
right builder, with motivated and dedicated owners and professional, hard
working employees, who would work with me to do everything possible to get
the price to a reasonable figure.
I will share a quick story with you that I have not even told my builder.
It was one of those moments when I knew that I made the right builder choice
Very shortly after construction began and the frames started going up I
got a call from the builder asking me if I could come up to talk about some
design and build issues (remember how I mentioned how they warned me that
some things would look differently in 3D than what you may have envisioned
by looking at a 2D drawing). Anyway, when I went up to Canada to see what
was up and walked into the building where my child was being built . . .
there she was all shiny, with frames, a partial deck, etcetera.
I knew from my interview visit months and months before that the owners'
office was upstairs, and as I headed over to go see them, some guy walked up
to me and stuck out his hand to introduce himself. He was obviously an
employee and obviously a "welder type" of a guy. Anyway, he came over and
said "you must be Mr. Wagner, the owner", which I acknowledged was the case.
I thought he was just going to point out where I should go to find the
company owners and my contact, but he introduced himself, told me his name,
and -- I swear, I will never forget this -- he thanked me, actually thanked
me, for selecting the company he worked for to build my boat and told me how
proud and honored he was to build it for me. He actually used those words
-- "proud and honored." He told me that he wanted to let me know that he
and everyone else working on my boat were going to do everything possible to
make sure that they built a strong, safe, and reliable boat for me.
I am sure I thanked him and mumbled something, but I don't remember what. I
am a trial lawyer by training and profession and I am not often caught
speechless, but I was then. This was just some guy with a welding torch
getting a paycheck every two weeks. He didn't own the place; he wasn't
making big bucks or the profit; it wasn't "his" company, he was just a guy
on the line working paycheck to paycheck. I have got to tell you, I knew
right then and there that Debbie and I had selected the right builder and
that we could trust what would go on there.
That is probably a little bit afield from Tad's initial point, but if you
find the right builder with the right motivation who wants to work for a
fair price as opposed to trying to dig as deep into your pockets as they
possibly can, you can build a nice 50+ foot passagemaking-capable boat here
in North America. I know. I am doing it.
o;? o;? o;? o;?
Alan Wagner
Tampa, Florida
Building "Passage of Time" in Nova Scotia at YachtSmiths International
www.YachtSmiths.com
http://kastenmarine.com/valdemar52.htm
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Dear Ones,
Since the conversation has lulled a bit, let me ask a question.
At this time we are cross-border cruisers, moving back and forth between
British Columbia and Washington every month or two. We also like good wine.
So when we find a nice wine at a good price we tend to buy a case or two. So
if we are in the US and buy a case or two, then go to Canada, and buy a case
or two - is there no such thing as ships stores?
How do the rules work? Do we really have to drink up almost every bottle on
board before we cross the border? This could turn us into serious drunks!
If we claim a couple of cases of wine as we enter a country, can we pay duty
on it then not claim it the next time we enter the same country? If we are
leaving the States for Alaska and want to stock up at Costco before we
leave, do we have to stay offshore all the way past Canada? I'd appreciate
your advice.
Douglas
You are only allowed two bottles of wine per person on board when
entering BC. I'm not aware of any rules on wine when returning to US.
You can indeed declare more, but they have a complicated pricing
system depending on the vinter's location, and its a nightmare just to
have them figure out the duty by your having to describe every
bottle. Then the duty... its often equal to the cost of the wine. You
won't save money doing this, but you could wind up with a better
selection. But the one person I talked to who tried it said he'd never
do it again... way too much hassle even if you don't care about the
money.
There are then two approaches to deal with this:
- Don't declare it. Risk is that if you get caught, you'll be on the
sh*t list for the rest of your life, and entry to BC will always be
difficult, involving physical inspection as opposed to phone
clearance. Not to mention paying the fines and duty. And if you have a
Trusted Traveler document, CanPass or Nexus, its revoked for life. If
you don't have a TT document, you'll never be able to get one. Also,
if you have a TT document, then you get hit with the absolute maximum
fines, given you violated your end of the trust thing. (I just got my
Nexus card last week, and vividly remember the briefings by the
Canadian and US Immigration people on that subject.)
I'd never recommend resorting to smuggling just to have your favorite
wines on board.
- Buy your wine in BC. This is a different kettle of fish, but it
still smells. If you are discriminating, its hard to find the vintages
or brands you want in BC, and you pay a huge price compared to the US
for what you do buy. I've been to a number of wine stores that are
walkable from marinas in Victoria, Sidney, Nanaimo and Campbell River,
and they've never impressed me. They put a huge focus (and reserve
gobs of shelf-space) for local BC wines, which I frankly don't like.
We usually wind up drinking lesser wines at greater prices in BC than
we do back in Washington state. Perhaps you could find a good
selection somewhere in Vancouver, but I haven't explored that. Don't
like big cities.
As far as bypassing Canada on the way to Alaska, the only way to avoid
clearing customs is not dropping anchor, docking, fishing or coming
close enough to another boat or its crew while in Canadian waters to
be in "proximity" -- close enough to have exchanged goods. That's
pretty extreme, given you have to run non-stop all the way to Alaska.
Its far too dangerous to run at night in the inside due to logs. Plus,
when you arrive in Alaska, they will ask for your Canadian clearance
number. If you don't have one, you're going to have an interesting
time convincing Homeland Security that you never dropped anchor or
tied up all the way up from the lower 48. They work closely with
Canada to keep things legal.
On the other hand, some commercial fisherman do run nonstop from
Seattle to Alaska and don't clear Canadian customs. It just doesn't
seem like much fun to me. Parts of BC are just as scenic as Alaska.
John Marshall
Serendipity - Nordhavn 55
Sequim Bay, WA
On Dec 18, 2008, at 10:14 PM, Douglas Cochrane wrote:
Dear Ones,
Since the conversation has lulled a bit, let me ask a question.
At this time we are cross-border cruisers, moving back and forth
between
British Columbia and Washington every month or two. We also like
good wine.
So when we find a nice wine at a good price we tend to buy a case or
two. So
if we are in the US and buy a case or two, then go to Canada, and
buy a case
or two - is there no such thing as ships stores?
How do the rules work? Do we really have to drink up almost every
bottle on
board before we cross the border? This could turn us into serious
drunks!
If we claim a couple of cases of wine as we enter a country, can we
pay duty
on it then not claim it the next time we enter the same country? If
we are
leaving the States for Alaska and want to stock up at Costco before we
leave, do we have to stay offshore all the way past Canada? I'd
appreciate
your advice.
Douglas
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We crossed into Canada at Kingston, ONT this past July. We cleared customs
by telephone. Never saw a real person. We were asked about firearms,
alcohol, cigarettes, pets and people. We had no firearms and no cigarettes,
since we do not smoke. We did have several bottles of alcohol and beer. I
told the customs agent we just had "ships stores". She asked, How Much? We
told her just what we had and she had no further comments. She gave us our
Canpass number, which we then wrote in our log and posted in our window. I
was quite concerned when we brought back some of our US purchased alcohol
and a few bottles of Canada purchased alcohol. The US customs never asked
about alcohol. Most likely because the cost of alcohol products is about
twice as expensive as in the US. Why would anyone smuggle booze from
Canada into the US when it's twice as expensive?
Good Luck,
Paul
That sounds normal... if, however, you'd said you had a couple of
cases of wine, it would have gone very differently.
You can have 1.5 liters of wine a person OR 40 ounces of hard liquor
per person OR 24 bottles of beer a person. Note the OR's, although
they don't object to mixes of the three as long as they more or less
add up. For example, a bottle of wine per person and twelve beers a
person.
If you are just a bit over the booze allowance, they'll usually let it
pass with a reminder of the limits. But if you're much over, then the
duty game begins.
By the way, Canpass is a special trusted traveler document you have to
apply for in advance, which allows you to enter Canada without landing
at a custom's dock. You can call from your boat cellphone instead of
the dockside phones. The US equivalent is the I68, although both are
gradually being superseded by a newer program called Nexus.
In contrast, the number they give you on the phone after you clear is
a Clearance number, not a Canpass number. You have to display it in a
window where it's visible from the dock when tying up, or give it
Canadian CG if they hail you.
The tendency is for people to understate the booze on board during
phone reporting. But be aware, they do actually come down and check
boats very thoroughly, although not often. But when they do, they are
more intrusive than Homeland Security in the US. I've known people who
had their boats gone through for hours, also boats they've chosen to
unleash their new Customs trainees on by having them by practicing an
intrusive search (in Bedwell Harbor, BC no less).
They also keep detailed computer records on your crossings and the
names of people who routinely travel on your boat, and if you are
inspected and found to have misstated what's on your boat, a red flag
is put on your name or boat. Having a red-flagged passenger on board
is also bad. Then the easy, friendly, "welcome to Canada, glad you
came" telephone customs thing becomes physical cavity search time
forever more.
Stories:
One friend (from rural Utah) who has always carried a handgun in his
car door once forgot about it when crossing the border by car. When
the Canadians asked him about firearms, he remembered that handguns
are never, EVER allowed and told them about it. They surrounded his
car as he got out, hands up, after telling them where the weapon was.
They completely searched the car, taking the weapon. But when he said
he'd turn around and go back to US, they gave the now unloaded weapon
back with a strong warning. He later crossed into Canada on our boat
(without the weapon, of course) and I was worried about him being red-
flagged, but he wasn't. They recognized the honest mistake and his
cooperation and didn't penalize him.
On the other hand, some friends of ours once traveled south from
Alaska to the Canadian Queen Charlotte Islands, assuming they could
clear Canada Customs there. Unfortunately, there wasn't a Customs dock
in the Queen Charlottes at the time. When they called Canada Customs
over in Prince Rupert to try and report in by phone (that's the
closest 365days/24hour customs location), they were told they had to
travel across Queen Charlotte Strait immediately to clear in Prince
Rupert, and then return to the Queen Charlottes. The one-way distance
is 93 miles, so their request was ridiculous, especially given it was
late in the day and it was starting to blow. Our friends refused to
cross that nasty body of water at night, claiming they were exhausted
and safety issues. Customs was not amused by their refusal. They made
them call back every few hours all night and then demanded they come
over first thing in the morning -- it was still blowing fairly hard --
and then hassled them to no end. Bottom line, they'd broken the rules
by landing at the wrong place and then "refused to cooperate".
Don't get me wrong, entering Canada with telephone clearance at their
custom's docks (even without CanPass or Nexus) has always been easier
for us than re-entering the US, where a CBP agent will generally come
onto our boat. Play strictly by the rules, and Canada customs is
incredibly friendly, helpful, easy and quick. They really act as if
they want you there (as opposed to Homeland Security, who act like
suspicious gatekeepers). But if you get caught breaking the rules, or
you refuse a Customs request, even a ridiculous one like with our
friends in the Queen Charlottes, you quickly find that the friendly
kitten truly has fangs and has no qualms about using them.
It isn't worth the risk for those of us who cross the border
constantly. You gotta stay squeaky clean and not be seduced by the
easy telephone check-in.
John Marshall
Serendipity - Nordhavn 55
Sequim Bay, WA
On Dec 19, 2008, at 7:42 AM, Paul W. Weakley wrote:
We crossed into Canada at Kingston, ONT this past July. We cleared
customs
by telephone. Never saw a real person. We were asked about firearms,
alcohol, cigarettes, pets and people. We had no firearms and no
cigarettes,
since we do not smoke. We did have several bottles of alcohol and
beer. I
told the customs agent we just had "ships stores". She asked, How
Much? We
told her just what we had and she had no further comments. She gave
us our
Canpass number, which we then wrote in our log and posted in our
window. I
was quite concerned when we brought back some of our US purchased
alcohol
and a few bottles of Canada purchased alcohol. The US customs never
asked
about alcohol. Most likely because the cost of alcohol products is
about
twice as expensive as in the US. Why would anyone smuggle booze
from
Canada into the US when it's twice as expensive?
Good Luck,
Paul
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