PPM - An idea for how to restructure the topic
As many people have said, there is no such thing as a Perfect Passagemaker.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Everyone has different budgets,
cruising plans, and comfort needs. No one boat can be perfect for everyone.
That said, here's a thought for the group. Could we swap the topic to
"Things to think about when buying a Passagemaker?".
Hardly a week goes by that I am not contacted by someone who is putting
together a boat order, and asking my advice in selecting equipment for their
boat. I tend to have lots of opinions, and certainly share them, but suspect
there is a better way to do this, than for new boat buyers to contact each
of us, and solicit our opinions one by one. Worst yet, most don't know
anyone to ask questions of (other than their salesman, which can have mixed
results), and don't know what questions to ask. I suspect many of you get
these same queries. Perhaps it is possible to pool our thinking and come out
with a simple list (or book) we could email to people that gives them lots
to think about (and, hopefully doesn't frighten them).
Specifically, I'm suggesting that to the extent we want to continue this
discussion, and convert it to something that might have some real merit, we
consider changing the goal for the discussion. I am suggesting we break a
passagemaker into its component systems, and then think about the kinds of
decisions that someone should be thinking about as they pick out the
systems for their boat, OR, as they do a refit of their boats. My thought is
that there are lots and lots of options and upgrades that are never
considered because people weren't smart enough to ask the questions.
If we were to do this, I'd say that a basic ground rule should be that there
are no wrong answers. Virtually any device or option has a place in the
market. One device might be better suited to someone on a tight budget than
another. Different devices (decisions) have pros and cons. An option that
makes no sense on a million dollar boat that will rarely leave the dock,
might be a "must have" on a half million dollar boat that will be
circumnavigating. For instance, I would argue, with respect to
stabilization, that active stabilizers, paravanes, anti-roll tanks, and the
complete absence of stabilizers, are ALL valid options. Which is "the" best
solution for a particular buyer depends on the buyer, and what they plan to
do with the boat. As a group, we can probably outline what the options are,
and what the criteria are that someone might want to think about as they
choose "their perfect passagemaker."
I was thinking we could slice the pie something like:
Hull
-
Material -
Type of hull (semi-displacement, displacement) -
Aft pilot house, forward pilothouse -
Narrow beam, wide beam -
Etc
Propulsion
-
Twins vs singles -
Get home options -
Props (normal, feathering, hundestat) -
Transmissions (normal, v-drives) -
Etc
Interior
-
Sound proofing -
Layout
Electronics
-
Options for internet (vsat, bgan, wifi, cellular, ocens, ssb,
etc)
-
Nav systems -
Auto pilots -
Radars -
Sonar -
Monitoring Systems
Watermakers
Electrical Systems
-
Shore power converters -
Isolation transformers -
Step up/down transformers -
Grounding -
Shore power cables -
International power -
Generators
Ground Tackle
-
Anchoring
Tenders
Misc
-
Licensing -
Taxes -
Davits -
Fuel (polishing systems, bladders, ???) -
Security systems
I only had a few minutes to think about this list, but suspect the group
could easily double it in size, and that each of us has good information
about each of these categories, and what the right option is at different
budgets, and cruising plans.
Were we to work this list in a organized manner, one system at a time, I
suspect we would come out with something that would teach all of us a great
deal (via learning from others), plus be of tremendous benefit to newbies,
and even ourselves as we think about refitting our boats.
-Ken Williams
http://www.kensblog.com www.kensblog.com
Sans Souci, Nordhavn 68
One possible vehicle for Ken's suggestion would be a Wiki. It is more topic oriented than discussion oriented. It allows for editing, history, linking, etc. There is no reason why these articles could not go directly to Wikipedia itself, or they could start off in draft form on the list or a independent wiki. I don't follow any boating wikis, but a quick search only turned up
http://www.wikicruising.com
http://captainwiki.com
But they seem to be more destination oriented than equipment oriented. I have no idea how popular they are.
There are lots of sites out there that will let you set up a wiki for free, similar to yahoo/google pages, groups, etc.
Just a thought.....
--- On Wed, 11/12/08, Ken Williams kenw@talkspot.com wrote:
Hardly a week goes by that I am not contacted by someone
who is putting
together a boat order, and asking my advice in selecting
equipment for their
I agree on changing focus to systems and construction, especially for
those that are "First timers" or moving from coastal to offshore and
passaging. As I have said before as a previous owner of Seahorse, a
53' Skookum (Great sea kindly boat in tough conditions) to our new
custom built 47+2 Duck I don't believe there is a perfect design that
fits all conditions. Since most reading this blog will buy used in a
various stages of condition and I imagine in the 300 to 750K price
range a discussion on retrofitting I think would be a good topic. I
know after both retro-fitting and building new that improvements and
up-grades are done almost annually. In addition, the relative
longevity of systems being considered before major and costly repairs
from our personal experiences might also help those who are thinking
of new or used. God Bless - Ross - 10&2
On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 10:27 PM, Ken Williams kenw@talkspot.com wrote:
As many people have said, there is no such thing as a Perfect Passagemaker.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Everyone has different budgets,
cruising plans, and comfort needs. No one boat can be perfect for everyone.
That said, here's a thought for the group. Could we swap the topic to
"Things to think about when buying a Passagemaker?".
Hardly a week goes by that I am not contacted by someone who is putting
together a boat order, and asking my advice in selecting equipment for their
boat. I tend to have lots of opinions, and certainly share them, but suspect
there is a better way to do this, than for new boat buyers to contact each
of us, and solicit our opinions one by one. Worst yet, most don't know
anyone to ask questions of (other than their salesman, which can have mixed
results), and don't know what questions to ask. I suspect many of you get
these same queries. Perhaps it is possible to pool our thinking and come out
with a simple list (or book) we could email to people that gives them lots
to think about (and, hopefully doesn't frighten them).
Specifically, I'm suggesting that to the extent we want to continue this
discussion, and convert it to something that might have some real merit, we
consider changing the goal for the discussion. I am suggesting we break a
passagemaker into its component systems, and then think about the kinds of
decisions that someone should be thinking about as they pick out the
systems for their boat, OR, as they do a refit of their boats. My thought is
that there are lots and lots of options and upgrades that are never
considered because people weren't smart enough to ask the questions.
If we were to do this, I'd say that a basic ground rule should be that there
are no wrong answers. Virtually any device or option has a place in the
market. One device might be better suited to someone on a tight budget than
another. Different devices (decisions) have pros and cons. An option that
makes no sense on a million dollar boat that will rarely leave the dock,
might be a "must have" on a half million dollar boat that will be
circumnavigating. For instance, I would argue, with respect to
stabilization, that active stabilizers, paravanes, anti-roll tanks, and the
complete absence of stabilizers, are ALL valid options. Which is "the" best
solution for a particular buyer depends on the buyer, and what they plan to
do with the boat. As a group, we can probably outline what the options are,
and what the criteria are that someone might want to think about as they
choose "their perfect passagemaker."
I was thinking we could slice the pie something like:
Hull
-
Material -
Type of hull (semi-displacement, displacement) -
Aft pilot house, forward pilothouse -
Narrow beam, wide beam -
Etc
Propulsion
-
Twins vs singles -
Get home options -
Props (normal, feathering, hundestat) -
Transmissions (normal, v-drives) -
Etc
Interior
-
Sound proofing -
Layout
Electronics
-
Options for internet (vsat, bgan, wifi, cellular, ocens, ssb,
etc)
-
Nav systems -
Auto pilots -
Radars -
Sonar -
Monitoring Systems
Watermakers
Electrical Systems
-
Shore power converters -
Isolation transformers -
Step up/down transformers -
Grounding -
Shore power cables -
International power -
Generators
Ground Tackle
-
Anchoring
Tenders
Misc
-
Licensing -
Taxes -
Davits -
Fuel (polishing systems, bladders, ???) -
Security systems
I only had a few minutes to think about this list, but suspect the group
could easily double it in size, and that each of us has good information
about each of these categories, and what the right option is at different
budgets, and cruising plans.
Were we to work this list in a organized manner, one system at a time, I
suspect we would come out with something that would teach all of us a great
deal (via learning from others), plus be of tremendous benefit to newbies,
and even ourselves as we think about refitting our boats.
-Ken Williams
http://www.kensblog.com www.kensblog.com
Sans Souci, Nordhavn 68
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power
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Friends: OK, well, it was put up or shut up time for me. I've volunteered to
set up a passagemaker wiki in the past, but have not followed through, mostly
due to sloth. But, we have a very interesting thread going and lots of
interesting ideas. So, I went ahead a set up a very basic Wiki for
passagemakers: http://passagemaker.wikispaces.com
I confess that I stole the logo from Nordhavn's webpage, so I hope they don't
sue me for copyright infringement. That of course is also open to change.
This is only a preliminary first draft, so please don't jump on me right away
for putting in or leaving out stuff. The purpose of a wiki is to allow the
community to edit the information and I/we can invite anyone we want to be a
contributing member of this wiki. Georgs K. has offered to support a wiki,
but I didn't want to commit him without his permission and agreement. This is
my first effort at a wiki, and I know it still needs to be adjusted to make it
as user friendly as possible. I am willing to serve as overall
editor/moderator (in case some of our wonderful members get up on the wrong
side of the bed and express their discontent in delightful and poetic - though
not always appropriate - language); however, the wiki is open to all and I
have no intention of editing content.
On a personal note, I am NOT an expert on trawlers or passagemakers. I do not
own a boat, and have never owned a boat. I have no stake in anything other
than a lively, informed source of information on passagemakers. There is a
selfish motive to my endeavors. My wife, Winifred, and I will be buying a
passagemaker in the relatively near future and we would really appreciate
learning as much as we can from the collective expertise of the PUP group as a
whole.
All the best,
Jonathan Haas
--- On Thu, 11/13/08, Ross Anderson 10and2@gmail.com wrote:
From: Ross Anderson 10and2@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [PUP] PPM - An idea for how to restructure the topic
To: kenw@talkspot.com, "Passagemaking Under Power List"
passagemaking-under-power@lists.samurai.com
Date: Thursday, November 13, 2008, 7:13 AM
I agree on changing focus to systems and construction, especially for
those that are "First timers" or moving from coastal to offshore and
passaging. As I have said before as a previous owner of Seahorse, a
53' Skookum (Great sea kindly boat in tough conditions) to our new
custom built 47+2 Duck I don't believe there is a perfect design that
fits all conditions. Since most reading this blog will buy used in a
various stages of condition and I imagine in the 300 to 750K price
range a discussion on retrofitting I think would be a good topic. I
know after both retro-fitting and building new that improvements and
up-grades are done almost annually. In addition, the relative
longevity of systems being considered before major and costly repairs
from our personal experiences might also help those who are thinking
of new or used. God Bless - Ross - 10&2
On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 10:27 PM, Ken Williams kenw@talkspot.com wrote:
As many people have said, there is no such thing as a Perfect
Passagemaker.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Everyone has different budgets,
cruising plans, and comfort needs. No one boat can be perfect for
everyone.
That said, here's a thought for the group. Could we swap the topic to
"Things to think about when buying a Passagemaker?".
Hardly a week goes by that I am not contacted by someone who is putting
together a boat order, and asking my advice in selecting equipment for
their
boat. I tend to have lots of opinions, and certainly share them, but
suspect
there is a better way to do this, than for new boat buyers to contact each
of us, and solicit our opinions one by one. Worst yet, most don't know
anyone to ask questions of (other than their salesman, which can have
mixed
results), and don't know what questions to ask. I suspect many of you
get
these same queries. Perhaps it is possible to pool our thinking and come
out
with a simple list (or book) we could email to people that gives them lots
to think about (and, hopefully doesn't frighten them).
Specifically, I'm suggesting that to the extent we want to continue
this
discussion, and convert it to something that might have some real merit,
we
consider changing the goal for the discussion. I am suggesting we break a
passagemaker into its component systems, and then think about the kinds of
decisions that someone should be thinking about as they pick out the
systems for their boat, OR, as they do a refit of their boats. My thought
is
that there are lots and lots of options and upgrades that are never
considered because people weren't smart enough to ask the questions.
If we were to do this, I'd say that a basic ground rule should be that
there
are no wrong answers. Virtually any device or option has a place in the
market. One device might be better suited to someone on a tight budget
than
another. Different devices (decisions) have pros and cons. An option that
makes no sense on a million dollar boat that will rarely leave the dock,
might be a "must have" on a half million dollar boat that will
be
circumnavigating. For instance, I would argue, with respect to
stabilization, that active stabilizers, paravanes, anti-roll tanks, and
the
complete absence of stabilizers, are ALL valid options. Which is
"the" best
solution for a particular buyer depends on the buyer, and what they plan
to
do with the boat. As a group, we can probably outline what the options
are,
and what the criteria are that someone might want to think about as they
choose "their perfect passagemaker."
I was thinking we could slice the pie something like:
Hull
-
Material -
Type of hull (semi-displacement, displacement) -
Aft pilot house, forward pilothouse -
Narrow beam, wide beam -
Etc
Propulsion
-
Twins vs singles -
Get home options -
Props (normal, feathering, hundestat) -
Transmissions (normal, v-drives) -
Etc
Interior
-
Sound proofing -
Layout
Electronics
-
Options for internet (vsat, bgan, wifi, cellular, ocens, ssb,
etc)
-
Nav systems -
Auto pilots -
Radars -
Sonar -
Monitoring Systems
Watermakers
Electrical Systems
-
Shore power converters -
Isolation transformers -
Step up/down transformers -
Grounding -
Shore power cables -
International power -
Generators
Ground Tackle
-
Anchoring
Tenders
Misc
-
Licensing -
Taxes -
Davits -
Fuel (polishing systems, bladders, ???) -
Security systems
I only had a few minutes to think about this list, but suspect the group
could easily double it in size, and that each of us has good information
about each of these categories, and what the right option is at different
budgets, and cruising plans.
Were we to work this list in a organized manner, one system at a time, I
suspect we would come out with something that would teach all of us a
great
deal (via learning from others), plus be of tremendous benefit to newbies,
and even ourselves as we think about refitting our boats.
-Ken Williams
http://www.kensblog.com www.kensblog.com
Sans Souci, Nordhavn 68
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power
To unsubscribe send email to
passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word
UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message.
Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World
Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power
To unsubscribe send email to
passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word
UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message.
Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World Productions,
formerly known as Trawler World Productions.
Jonathan,
A great idea - it is easy to use and a great start. I have added one
paragraph for starters.
John Harris
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Friends: The Passagemaker wiki is up and running and people are starting to
add information and comments. For those who think this is a good idea, I
encourage you to take at look at the site:
http://passagemaker.wikispaces.com/
I'm adding everyone who requests membership, plus anyone can add information
to the pages.
Jonathan Haas
Jonathan,
Thank you for this effort. I look forward to seeing the details filled in by
the more experienced amongst us.
Douglas Cochrane
Douglas_Cochrane@msn.com
You said, "Friends: The Passagemaker wiki is up and running and people are
starting to
add information and comments.