HG 414A Rubidium
Fellow time-nuts,
Today a new box entered the lab, a Götting KG HG 414A. This is not of
German origin, but is in fact a Soviet/Russian TSCH1-78. I've got SN 052
made in 1992, but the manual seems to be written in 1986.
Manuals is some form of copy method I just can't recall right now, but
stencil looks possible.
Mine comes with complete electrical and mechanical drawings, calibration
manual with nice stamps . All that in russian. There is also some
manuals translated into german which helps me a lot in the basic get
started operation, even if my german is close to non-existent.
It is in good shape, even if a quick look at the waveforms shows that
some improvement can be achieved. It locks and operates relatively well
straight out of the box.
So, what does it do?
It has a Rubidium reference in it. A 5 MHz OCXO which synthesize into 90
MHz and 5,31746 MHz which then is mixed in the cavity to 6,83468254 GHz
with a 86,8 Hz phase-modulation for resonance sweep.
It has a lock-indicator on the front and also a trimmer for OCXO
adjustment with indicators of direction to turn.
With that in hand, it generates 10 MHz, 5 MHz, 1 MHz and 100 kHz sine
outputs.
It further takes a 5 MHz input and measures it's frequency over one
second with 1E-11 resolution or over 10 or 100 s with 1E-12 resolution.
It shows 7 digit numbers. It essentially mix down to 500 Hz, 50 Hz or 5
Hz and measures. Works nicely.
It can also measure time-differences, and thus relates to the time it
has. It is fairly easy to set up the time of day in HH MM SS and it
looks like you can take a PPS and time-align it to it. Then you can
measure that time-difference. It also has a delayed output which is
programmable in 100 ns steps.
So, this box is a bit of everything, but a rather nice one.
The DC connector is unknown to me, but the AC is a standard IEC one, so
that took no time to hook up.
It will take some time to fully understand it, but who said it would be
easy?
I need to brush up my russian and german... ah well.
I use a TADD-2 for wave-cleanup, but it only achieves it partly.
Cheers,
Magnus
Pictures !!!
On Mar 24, 2011 4:31 PM, "Magnus Danielson" magnus@rubidium.dyndns.org
wrote:
Fellow time-nuts,
Today a new box entered the lab, a Götting KG HG 414A. This is not of
German origin, but is in fact a Soviet/Russian TSCH1-78. I've got SN 052
made in 1992, but the manual seems to be written in 1986.
Manuals is some form of copy method I just can't recall right now, but
stencil looks possible.
Mine comes with complete electrical and mechanical drawings, calibration
manual with nice stamps . All that in russian. There is also some
manuals translated into german which helps me a lot in the basic get
started operation, even if my german is close to non-existent.
It is in good shape, even if a quick look at the waveforms shows that
some improvement can be achieved. It locks and operates relatively well
straight out of the box.
So, what does it do?
It has a Rubidium reference in it. A 5 MHz OCXO which synthesize into 90
MHz and 5,31746 MHz which then is mixed in the cavity to 6,83468254 GHz
with a 86,8 Hz phase-modulation for resonance sweep.
It has a lock-indicator on the front and also a trimmer for OCXO
adjustment with indicators of direction to turn.
With that in hand, it generates 10 MHz, 5 MHz, 1 MHz and 100 kHz sine
outputs.
It further takes a 5 MHz input and measures it's frequency over one
second with 1E-11 resolution or over 10 or 100 s with 1E-12 resolution.
It shows 7 digit numbers. It essentially mix down to 500 Hz, 50 Hz or 5
Hz and measures. Works nicely.
It can also measure time-differences, and thus relates to the time it
has. It is fairly easy to set up the time of day in HH MM SS and it
looks like you can take a PPS and time-align it to it. Then you can
measure that time-difference. It also has a delayed output which is
programmable in 100 ns steps.
So, this box is a bit of everything, but a rather nice one.
The DC connector is unknown to me, but the AC is a standard IEC one, so
that took no time to hook up.
It will take some time to fully understand it, but who said it would be
easy?
I need to brush up my russian and german... ah well.
I use a TADD-2 for wave-cleanup, but it only achieves it partly.
Cheers,
Magnus
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
and follow the instructions there.
YES ! By all means pictures please.
Pete Lancashire wrote:
Pictures !!!
On Mar 24, 2011 4:31 PM, "Magnus Danielson" magnus@rubidium.dyndns.org
wrote:
Fellow time-nuts,
Today a new box entered the lab, a Götting KG HG 414A. This is not of
German origin, but is in fact a Soviet/Russian TSCH1-78. I've got SN 052
made in 1992, but the manual seems to be written in 1986.
Manuals is some form of copy method I just can't recall right now, but
stencil looks possible.
Mine comes with complete electrical and mechanical drawings, calibration
manual with nice stamps . All that in russian. There is also some
manuals translated into german which helps me a lot in the basic get
started operation, even if my german is close to non-existent.
It is in good shape, even if a quick look at the waveforms shows that
some improvement can be achieved. It locks and operates relatively well
straight out of the box.
So, what does it do?
It has a Rubidium reference in it. A 5 MHz OCXO which synthesize into 90
MHz and 5,31746 MHz which then is mixed in the cavity to 6,83468254 GHz
with a 86,8 Hz phase-modulation for resonance sweep.
It has a lock-indicator on the front and also a trimmer for OCXO
adjustment with indicators of direction to turn.
With that in hand, it generates 10 MHz, 5 MHz, 1 MHz and 100 kHz sine
outputs.
It further takes a 5 MHz input and measures it's frequency over one
second with 1E-11 resolution or over 10 or 100 s with 1E-12 resolution.
It shows 7 digit numbers. It essentially mix down to 500 Hz, 50 Hz or 5
Hz and measures. Works nicely.
It can also measure time-differences, and thus relates to the time it
has. It is fairly easy to set up the time of day in HH MM SS and it
looks like you can take a PPS and time-align it to it. Then you can
measure that time-difference. It also has a delayed output which is
programmable in 100 ns steps.
So, this box is a bit of everything, but a rather nice one.
The DC connector is unknown to me, but the AC is a standard IEC one, so
that took no time to hook up.
It will take some time to fully understand it, but who said it would be
easy?
I need to brush up my russian and german... ah well.
I use a TADD-2 for wave-cleanup, but it only achieves it partly.
Cheers,
Magnus
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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and follow the instructions there.
Ebay 180632718950
Is it this one?
Cheers
Stefan
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] Im Auftrag von Magnus Danielson
Gesendet: Freitag, 25. März 2011 00:31
An: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Betreff: [time-nuts] HG 414A Rubidium
Fellow time-nuts,
Today a new box entered the lab, a Götting KG HG 414A. This is not of
German origin, but is in fact a Soviet/Russian TSCH1-78. I've got SN 052
made in 1992, but the manual seems to be written in 1986.
Manuals is some form of copy method I just can't recall right now, but
stencil looks possible.
Mine comes with complete electrical and mechanical drawings, calibration
manual with nice stamps . All that in russian. There is also some
manuals translated into german which helps me a lot in the basic get
started operation, even if my german is close to non-existent.
It is in good shape, even if a quick look at the waveforms shows that
some improvement can be achieved. It locks and operates relatively well
straight out of the box.
So, what does it do?
It has a Rubidium reference in it. A 5 MHz OCXO which synthesize into 90
MHz and 5,31746 MHz which then is mixed in the cavity to 6,83468254 GHz
with a 86,8 Hz phase-modulation for resonance sweep.
It has a lock-indicator on the front and also a trimmer for OCXO
adjustment with indicators of direction to turn.
With that in hand, it generates 10 MHz, 5 MHz, 1 MHz and 100 kHz sine
outputs.
It further takes a 5 MHz input and measures it's frequency over one
second with 1E-11 resolution or over 10 or 100 s with 1E-12 resolution.
It shows 7 digit numbers. It essentially mix down to 500 Hz, 50 Hz or 5
Hz and measures. Works nicely.
It can also measure time-differences, and thus relates to the time it
has. It is fairly easy to set up the time of day in HH MM SS and it
looks like you can take a PPS and time-align it to it. Then you can
measure that time-difference. It also has a delayed output which is
programmable in 100 ns steps.
So, this box is a bit of everything, but a rather nice one.
The DC connector is unknown to me, but the AC is a standard IEC one, so
that took no time to hook up.
It will take some time to fully understand it, but who said it would be
easy?
I need to brush up my russian and german... ah well.
I use a TADD-2 for wave-cleanup, but it only achieves it partly.
Cheers,
Magnus
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Hi
Not available for purchase in the US. That's no fun, think of the bidding war we all could have gotten into ...
Bob
On Mar 25, 2011, at 5:06 AM, Heinzmann, Stefan (ALC NetworX GmbH) wrote:
Ebay 180632718950
Is it this one?
Cheers
Stefan
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] Im Auftrag von Magnus Danielson
Gesendet: Freitag, 25. März 2011 00:31
An: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Betreff: [time-nuts] HG 414A Rubidium
Fellow time-nuts,
Today a new box entered the lab, a Götting KG HG 414A. This is not of
German origin, but is in fact a Soviet/Russian TSCH1-78. I've got SN 052
made in 1992, but the manual seems to be written in 1986.
Manuals is some form of copy method I just can't recall right now, but
stencil looks possible.
Mine comes with complete electrical and mechanical drawings, calibration
manual with nice stamps . All that in russian. There is also some
manuals translated into german which helps me a lot in the basic get
started operation, even if my german is close to non-existent.
It is in good shape, even if a quick look at the waveforms shows that
some improvement can be achieved. It locks and operates relatively well
straight out of the box.
So, what does it do?
It has a Rubidium reference in it. A 5 MHz OCXO which synthesize into 90
MHz and 5,31746 MHz which then is mixed in the cavity to 6,83468254 GHz
with a 86,8 Hz phase-modulation for resonance sweep.
It has a lock-indicator on the front and also a trimmer for OCXO
adjustment with indicators of direction to turn.
With that in hand, it generates 10 MHz, 5 MHz, 1 MHz and 100 kHz sine
outputs.
It further takes a 5 MHz input and measures it's frequency over one
second with 1E-11 resolution or over 10 or 100 s with 1E-12 resolution.
It shows 7 digit numbers. It essentially mix down to 500 Hz, 50 Hz or 5
Hz and measures. Works nicely.
It can also measure time-differences, and thus relates to the time it
has. It is fairly easy to set up the time of day in HH MM SS and it
looks like you can take a PPS and time-align it to it. Then you can
measure that time-difference. It also has a delayed output which is
programmable in 100 ns steps.
So, this box is a bit of everything, but a rather nice one.
The DC connector is unknown to me, but the AC is a standard IEC one, so
that took no time to hook up.
It will take some time to fully understand it, but who said it would be
easy?
I need to brush up my russian and german... ah well.
I use a TADD-2 for wave-cleanup, but it only achieves it partly.
Cheers,
Magnus
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Hi
The whole counter thing has been run around in a thread back a month to
three months ago. It's in the archives.
Bottom line - if you want a cool one, it's got parts in it that are tough to
work with in a basement setting. If you stick with easy to solder parts,
it's not as cheap / fast / cool. For reasonable performance, price gets
above that of a "who knows if it works" 5370 on the auction sites. Even the
53181 it's self can be had fairly cheap if you spend a while (months)
shopping for one. The last 53181 I bought was under $500.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Greg Broburg
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 11:21 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HG 414A Rubidium
Yeah, I would be one of the bidders for this little toy
ifn it was available for purchase here.
I think that someone needs to take up the flag to begin
a group project to scratch design a home buildable
reciprocal counter. The project would teach a lot and
would result in quite a few folks on this site acquiring
significantly improved counting performance. Something
on the order of a 53181A would be very nice. The finished
module would be made of a processor, an FPGA,
and some peripheral bits. The manual for the 5345A
exposes quite a bit of theory and some this circuitry
might be directly adaptable to an FPGA.
I have been watching Scottys Spectrum Analyzer Group
for years and this SA / VGA is becoming an amazing
piece of equipment based on small (or not so small)
contributions of many of the participants.
Any thoughts?
Greg
On 3/25/2011 5:35 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
Not available for purchase in the US. That's no fun, think of the bidding
war we all could have gotten into ...
Bob
On Mar 25, 2011, at 5:06 AM, Heinzmann, Stefan (ALC NetworX GmbH) wrote:
Ebay 180632718950
Is it this one?
Cheers
Stefan
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Yeah, I would be one of the bidders for this little toy
ifn it was available for purchase here.
I think that someone needs to take up the flag to begin
a group project to scratch design a home buildable
reciprocal counter. The project would teach a lot and
would result in quite a few folks on this site acquiring
significantly improved counting performance. Something
on the order of a 53181A would be very nice. The finished
module would be made of a processor, an FPGA,
and some peripheral bits. The manual for the 5345A
exposes quite a bit of theory and some this circuitry
might be directly adaptable to an FPGA.
I have been watching Scottys Spectrum Analyzer Group
for years and this SA / VGA is becoming an amazing
piece of equipment based on small (or not so small)
contributions of many of the participants.
Any thoughts?
Greg
On 3/25/2011 5:35 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
Not available for purchase in the US. That's no fun, think of the bidding war we all could have gotten into ...
Bob
On Mar 25, 2011, at 5:06 AM, Heinzmann, Stefan (ALC NetworX GmbH) wrote:
Ebay 180632718950
Is it this one?
Cheers
Stefan
Hi Bob;
ok, I understand that you are not a fan of this idea
but other people might be.
Your'e right about the price (I paid 200 for my 53181A
plus another 150 for the ovenized oscillator option)
but there is a lot more to be had here. Id say that for most
people it would be about following the story. There is a
lot to learn about what makes these guys tick that is fun.
Lets start with the HP Journal from June of 1974 on the
web just a click away. Price is zero money.
http://www.hparchive.com/Journals/HPJ-1974-06.pdf
I think that most people are past the issue of what can
be done in the basement. If you have a problem then
somebody else has been there before you and then
you learn something. I started working with complex
chip layout and design (processors /FPGAs) in 1990
and later on mentoring others as to how assemble
prototypes not long after. It is my belief that when you
propose to use a new part that you are also thinking
about how you are going to assemble it to test the
circuit Go to youtube there are several videos of how
to fancy complex stuff. A lot of people use pizza ovens.
Have a look at the website for Scottys Spectrum Analyzer.
Much of what is done here was unthinkable in the basement
10 years ago. http://www.scottyspectrumanalyzer.com/
Regards;
Greg
On 3/25/2011 8:38 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
The whole counter thing has been run around in a thread back a month to
three months ago. It's in the archives.
Bottom line - if you want a cool one, it's got parts in it that are tough to
work with in a basement setting. If you stick with easy to solder parts,
it's not as cheap / fast / cool. For reasonable performance, price gets
above that of a "who knows if it works" 5370 on the auction sites. Even the
53181 it's self can be had fairly cheap if you spend a while (months)
shopping for one. The last 53181 I bought was under $500.
Bob
Hi
Are we talking about a 2ns 5345 or a 53181? They are vastly different
devices. The counter you asked about originally is approximately 10X better
than the one in the article you reference.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Greg Broburg
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 11:59 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HG 414A Rubidium
Hi Bob;
ok, I understand that you are not a fan of this idea
but other people might be.
Your'e right about the price (I paid 200 for my 53181A
plus another 150 for the ovenized oscillator option)
but there is a lot more to be had here. Id say that for most
people it would be about following the story. There is a
lot to learn about what makes these guys tick that is fun.
Lets start with the HP Journal from June of 1974 on the
web just a click away. Price is zero money.
http://www.hparchive.com/Journals/HPJ-1974-06.pdf
I think that most people are past the issue of what can
be done in the basement. If you have a problem then
somebody else has been there before you and then
you learn something. I started working with complex
chip layout and design (processors /FPGAs) in 1990
and later on mentoring others as to how assemble
prototypes not long after. It is my belief that when you
propose to use a new part that you are also thinking
about how you are going to assemble it to test the
circuit Go to youtube there are several videos of how
to fancy complex stuff. A lot of people use pizza ovens.
Have a look at the website for Scottys Spectrum Analyzer.
Much of what is done here was unthinkable in the basement
10 years ago. http://www.scottyspectrumanalyzer.com/
Regards;
Greg
On 3/25/2011 8:38 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
The whole counter thing has been run around in a thread back a month to
three months ago. It's in the archives.
Bottom line - if you want a cool one, it's got parts in it that are tough
to
work with in a basement setting. If you stick with easy to solder parts,
it's not as cheap / fast / cool. For reasonable performance, price gets
above that of a "who knows if it works" 5370 on the auction sites. Even
the
53181 it's self can be had fairly cheap if you spend a while (months)
shopping for one. The last 53181 I bought was under $500.
Bob
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
On 03/25/2011 10:06 AM, Heinzmann, Stefan (ALC NetworX GmbH) wrote:
Ebay 180632718950
Is it this one?
Yes.
Cheers,
Magnus
Fellow time-nuts,
I just did a quick-and dirty (i.e. Google Translate) translation of the
german manual brief (2 pages theory and 2 pages short-form manual). I
think it will be sufficiently enlightening.
http://rubidium.dyndns.org/~magnus/time/C1-78/
You will find my hand-typed in German variant as well as translated variant.
More to come.
Cheers,
Magnus
Do you believe the numbers?
Greg
On 3/27/2011 10:41 AM, Magnus Danielson wrote:
Fellow time-nuts,
I just did a quick-and dirty (i.e. Google Translate) translation of
the german manual brief (2 pages theory and 2 pages short-form
manual). I think it will be sufficiently enlightening.
http://rubidium.dyndns.org/~magnus/time/C1-78/
You will find my hand-typed in German variant as well as translated
variant.
More to come.
Cheers,
Magnus
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
On 03/27/2011 08:15 PM, Greg Broburg wrote:
Do you believe the numbers?
Considering that I haven't had the manuals in readable form for making a
serious overhaul I am not judging it just yeat. It's a 19 year old
device. I know it has some problems, among those it has a HF on top of
the 5 MHz and 10 MHz outputs, so making quality measurements isn't
easy... on the level that the 10 MHz taken straight into the SR-620 says
something like 11 MHz... but treating it slightly (through a TADD-2
modded for clock output) makes reading reliable. It seems to sit stable
there so it behaves locked but off mark. I want to fix that and whatever
other things there is before I judge it.
These things doesn't ring major warning-bells for me. I've seen old
equipment before, so it's more a matter of having the time to find it
and solve it properly. Part of the problem is that the technical manual
is in German and the schematics and supporting documentation is in
russian. Neither of these languages is among the onces I master, so I
think I will focus on getting rough translation first.
I haven't figured out where the C-field adjustment is.
So... it is premature to make such a judgement of believing the numbers,
any Rubidium out of tune and in need of service can be this much off.
Cheers,
Magnus
On 03/27/2011 06:41 PM, Magnus Danielson wrote:
Fellow time-nuts,
I just did a quick-and dirty (i.e. Google Translate) translation of the
german manual brief (2 pages theory and 2 pages short-form manual). I
think it will be sufficiently enlightening.
http://rubidium.dyndns.org/~magnus/time/C1-78/
You will find my hand-typed in German variant as well as translated
variant.
More to come.
I have now made a major effort on the technical manual
(HG414Atechman.pdf) which is not in the translated form of
TechMan-MarkII-EN.pdf.
There is quite some bit of polishing to be done on the english after the
Google Translate, but I have already done some stuff. Sometimes adding a
space in the right place in the german input will allow GT to come up
with something more sensible.
There are some published specs there.
One of the more impressive facts is that the physical package has
tripple mymetal shielding. I have only seen single shielding on the
other rubidiums.
Cheers,
Magnus