USCG too-late esponse
Yesterday, we witnessed, on the VHF, an account of a tragic death which we
think could have been prevented. The victim was a 34 year old father of two,
and it was evidently his first dive following certification. He and 5 others
went into the sea. The 5 descended, but the victim lost his mask and panicked.
He went under and surfaced a short time later unconscious. Due to the other
divers in the water, the dive boat operator could not use his engine to get
to the man, so another boat, retrieved him and began CPR.
Around 1015 as we traveled south on the Delaware Bay, we heard a Mayday and
request to USCG Cape May for a helo to rescue a diver who had been taken,
unconscious from the water. The dive boat captain specifically requested a helo.
The accident scene was 38 miles off Cape May. We listened to the CG
responses from Cape May and Delaware Bay as well as those of the dive boat, and the
boat on which the diver was given CPR. Later, we also monitored the helo pilot
and the 47-footer which was sent to the scene.
Bottom line: despite the CPR-givers statement early on that there was foam
from the mouth and blood from the nose and no vital signs, it took ONE HOUR
for the helo to arrive. We were incredulous that it could take so long. We don't
know why, but we assume it was not ordered in time. The repeated questions
to CG from the dive boat regarding the helo status went unanswered, and there
were long pauses on the part of the CG in repying to other queries. CG kept
asking if oxygen was available; they asked for the lat/lon three times, and
another time for course and speed despite having been told that the boat was
anchored!
Sadly, CG readiness was just not there yesterday, or CG personnel didn't
grasp what was obvious to us, or both. The helo should have been sent
immediately!
It will be interesting to see what conclusions CG will come to on this one.
Regards,
John & Penny
"Seahorse"
Haverstraw Bay, Hudson River
**************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best
2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102)
On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 3:01 PM, Truelove39@aol.com wrote:
Sadly, CG readiness was just not there yesterday, or CG personnel didn't
grasp what was obvious to us, or both. The helo should have been sent
immediately!
It will be interesting to see what conclusions CG will come to on this one.
One thing is sure at this point: The CG will make sure they have all
the facts before they reach a conclusion. It would be prudent for all
observers to do the same.
JG
-----Original Message-----
Sadly, CG readiness was just not there yesterday, or CG personnel didn't
grasp what was obvious to us, or both. The helo should have been sent
immediately!
John,
While you may well be right, without having the benefit of the full story, I
am not about to jump to the conclusion made by hearing just one side of the
story.
What the public rarely knows is that as soon as the CG knows there is a real
SAR emergency, they call out the troops, even while the watchstander working
the radio is still collecting information on the case. If you were only
listening to the radio you may think there was no action being taken, when
in fact the response could have been initiated quite a while ago.
As far as the statement that the "helo should have been sent immediately",
you are making a big assumption that the duty helo was sitting on the pad
waiting for a call, and not busy with another call, or on the way back
needing fuel before it could make the run offshore to the dive boat.
While it was clearly a very unfortunate accident out there, I'm not going to
sit at home and make judgments condemning someone's actions based only on a
partial one-sided story. For this Saturday's event, I won't play Monday
morning quarterback.
Kevin
Sadly, CG readiness was just not there yesterday, or CG
personnel didn't grasp what was obvious to us, or both.
The helo should have been sent immediately!
Even if the helicopter had been on the pad, fueled, with a crew inside and
ready to go along with the blades already spinning, it would have probably
been too late.
I've had the misfortune of performing CPR multiple times. It's not a good
day when it is needed. Ten minutes is too long to wait - the average
ambulance response time on land. Four minutes is about as long as you've
really got. I'm not sure I'd want to ever attempt it on a diver while still
in the water.
I think that the more important point to take away from all of this is that
if you're on a boat, away from other people and help, you should know how to
perform CPR and the most basic of life-saving skills. Your quick actions
will help to keep your partner alive until a secondary, professional
response is possible.
---=
Jeffrey Siegel
M/V aCappella
DeFever 53PH
W1ACA/WDB4350
Castine, Maine
www.activecaptain.com
Content, Communications, Community
..
Hi All
A distress call made on a DSC equipped VHF does away with any possible
misunderstanding about identity or position (if connected to GPS) and shows
on the CG display.
DSC/VHF is the norm now in Europe - Is it slow to catch on in US or is that
a faulty impression?
Regards
Roger Bingham
France
To all, from a Canadian Rescuer,
Concerning a response from the CG. It is obvious that some of the boaters
out there think that Coast Guard personel, the Helo personel and the
Auxiliaries are just standing by waiting for you to call so they can get to
work. Reality is they are! However sometimes they are busy doing rescue work
that retards the response time to YOUR call. When they are sleeping they
have to get up and get things moving, but most of the time they are ready
for taskings. For response time, most of the time the rescue personel are
tasked with limited information. When the radio operator is gathering
information, the rescuer is busy getting ready. Believe me. Sometimes we
depart form our home port knowing a vage locating, no specifics and no
direct contact person. We have to rely on a radio operator, a supervisor and
Joe the standed boater. Then dealing with the proper information, the
weather, the sea conditions and other logistices, with much discussion the
supervisor and his superiors decide to get a helicopter to the scene, if one
is required.
With all the numbers of rescues done in any given years, you would be
surprised to know how many call were false alarms, or not even emergencies.
Given all of this and given the number of boaters, it is impossible to
expect the Rescue personel to be there for you at the snap of your fingers.
How can you improve your chances of getting the Rescue personel? Be
courteous, answer questions to the best of your ability, cooperate with the
radio operator and be patient.
And the better way to not needing the Coast Guard is taking courses in
boating and navigation and preparedness in adverse conditions.
Before drawing conclusion and jumping at each other for the inapropriate
response from the Coast Guard... get the facts straight from both sides...
and do not be too hasty in judging what happened...
My opinion...
Roger Lalonde
A true volunteer in Search and Rescue
Lake St Francis, Summerstown, ON, CA
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Gaquin" jfxgaquin@gmail.com
To: trawlers-and-trawlering@lists.samurai.com
Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2008 3:16 PM
Subject: Re: T&T: USCG too-late esponse
On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 3:01 PM, Truelove39@aol.com wrote:
Sadly, CG readiness was just not there yesterday, or CG personnel didn't
grasp what was obvious to us, or both. The helo should have been sent
immediately!
It will be interesting to see what conclusions CG will come to on this
one.
One thing is sure at this point: The CG will make sure they have all
the facts before they reach a conclusion. It would be prudent for all
observers to do the same.
JG
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering
To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change
email address, etc) go to:
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering
Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
Roger,
Your impression is correct based on the percentage of members of my yacht
club that have MMSIs. Some of the reasons are old radios (not DSC capable)
and the skippers failure to apply for the MMSI number.
In some areas of the US the USCG doesn't have the technology for DSC at
their communications sites. I believe the implementation plan has the USCG
fully capable in 2012. A link to the USCG implementation schedule was
posted to this list recently.
Ed, N7NVP
PT-38 "Makin' Do"
Poulsbo, WA
-----Original Message-----
DSC/VHF is the norm now in Europe - Is it slow to catch on in US or is that
a faulty impression?
Regards
Roger Bingham
France
CPR is impossible to perform on someone in the water. You need something hard under their back in order to compress the heart. All you can do in the water is AR and even that probably isnt all that effective.
Rob Z
I've had the misfortune of performing CPR multiple times.
It's not a good
day when it is needed. Ten minutes is too long to wait -
the average
ambulance response time on land. Four minutes is about as
long as you've
really got. I'm not sure I'd want to ever attempt it on a
diver while still
in the water.
This business of trying to understand the position and the
difficulties that the CG faces cuts both ways. I have never heard a
radio transmission that says "heIp is on the way", or "we are
preparing to assist you". That would seem to be an important
reassurance for the people in distress.
Phil de l'Etoile
I have conducted my own private research on how long it takes for the
helo to arrive on scene. This goes back at least 40 years. Once I sat in
the air station and waited for a call to come in, watched while the crew
was assembled, the helo warmed up, and the crew scrambling aboard with
any special gear expected to be needed.
The launch time was about 8-10 minutes, the distance to scene was about
45 statute miles, the helo arrived about 22 minutes from the initial call.
Once I was on the receiving end, near the same location as described
above. The helo arrived in about the 22 minutes mentioned. On this later
occasion I was in the surf, near someone drowning and I was in a hurry
for them to arrive. They arrived about 60 seconds too late as the
drowner was no longer visible.
When I ran deep sea fishing trips out of Columbia River we had many
rescue operations that were assisted by helo. The air base is about 10
miles from the entrance so the transit time is about 3 minutes. In cases
where a boat was taking on water, prep time was increased by the need to
load one or more pumps on the helo. I recall one incident in stormy
weather where the helo arrived in about 12-13 minutes with pumps, the
boat and crew were saved.
Cold water and warm air will produce fog, sometimes very dense. Helo
operations are severely hampered by dense fog as it has been unsafe, at
least in the past, to let down to the sea surface when you can't see it.
Rescues that have occurred under such conditions have usually not turned
out well.
CG Air station crews practice regularly and conduct routine patrols.
This means that helos may or may not be at the air station when a call
comes in. This may be a bonus in response time or a hindrance, depending
on where the helo is when the call comes in. There is also the question
of how much fuel they have, where they can get more and whether they
need special equipment not on board, in order to respond adequately to
the emergency.
Rescue helos are a scarce commodity and may not be situated in the ideal
location or circumstances, expecting optimum response times to occur
every time is not realistic.
As for the nit picking questions. The CG is doing itself no favors when
their personnel create the impression of being stupid. This appearance
of stupidity is widespread and needs to be addressed; I have no
confidence that it will be as the problem has been getting worse for
decades.
There are two factors at work here as far as I can tell. The gals and
guys routinely manning the radios are woefully inexperienced. In effect
they are getting trained by manning the radios. Like the bull in the
ring charging the matador's cape, it's not that the bull is stupid, it's
that he doesn't know, no-better! Given time both the bull and the CG
radio personnel will get smart. Trouble is in the CG they will then be
replaced with inexperienced personnel, after all the new people have to
be trained somehow. There is only so much that can be taught by
schooling, what everybody needs, CG and yachtsmen alike is experience.
The CG personnel will live longer, but the bull gets more respect?
Regards,
Mike
Capt. Mike Maurice
Beaverton Oregon(Near Portland)
Help in on the way... It is so true that reassurance goes a long way. It is
also true that you do not hear that help is on the way because at that time
that you would probably hear this, the distressed vessel and the Rescue
Centre, Coast Guard station are now on a working frequency that you might
not have followed. Reassurance call to the distressed vessel ususally
informs the occupants that a certain vessel is underway, will included where
the rescuers are leaving from, give an ETA and how and where the contact
will be made to them. Also at intervals of 15 minutes or less, depending of
the situation, if the rescuers have not arrived, the coast station will
communicate for a SITREP... situation report, to advise the responding
vessel. When the responding vessel arrives, they give SITREP every 15
minutes or less to the Rescue Centre, depending of the situation. The
personel at the Rescue Centre are on your side and ours. They oversee the
whole situation and are like a guardian angel for both the victims and the
rescuers. It is TEAM work to save all lives. Unfortunately we can't save
them all. When we rescue some one in distress they are victims and become
friends for life... we sometimes forget their names but the victims never
forget our faces.
Roger,
A true volunteer in Search and Rescue
Summerstown ON, CA.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil de l'Etoile" pdeli3@gmail.com
To: "Trawlers & Trawlering List" trawlers-and-trawlering@lists.samurai.com
Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 2:03 PM
Subject: Re: T&T: USCG too-late response
This business of trying to understand the position and the
difficulties that the CG faces cuts both ways. I have never heard a
radio transmission that says "heIp is on the way", or "we are
preparing to assist you". That would seem to be an important
reassurance for the people in distress.
Phil de l'Etoile
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering
To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change
email address, etc) go to:
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering
Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
Although I can't despute the responce time on the C.G. I hate reading about
dive accident reports done way to soon after an accident. I have had this
fellow on my boat diving and he seemed reasonably solid. He was diving off a
private boat with other people that have been diving with me before. I've
never had occasiontion to call the coast guard but many of my other dive
boat capts. have. The resopnce is never really quick, But, they're to me the
last line of defense. They're way overworked, understaffed and have many,
many new recruits dealing with incidents. All that aside after talking to
some of the people he was dead on the surface there was little anyone could
have done. They'll be a report soon enough on why he died, in the meantime
specualting over what happened does nothing of any value. The C.G. is hardly
magic, they try and they mostly do a good job but again they're far from
perfect. Capt. Bill of the Tnaseazure.----- Original Message -----
From: Truelove39@aol.com
To: trawlers-and-trawlering@lists.samurai.com
Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2008 3:01 PM
Subject: T&T: USCG too-late esponse
Yesterday, we witnessed, on the VHF, an account of a tragic death which we
One of the statistics that most of the public is not aware of is the small
size of the USCG. With only 47,000 members in the whole force, the CG is
only a little bigger than the New York City Police Department's 36,000
members.
While the NY PD's staff only have to cover 305 square miles (i.e., 84
officers for every square mile), the CG has to cover the entire coast and
the rivers of all US states, the Great Lakes, Guam, Puerto Rico, American
Samoa, and the US Virgin Islands. In addition, they also support off shore
fisheries enforcement, migrant and drug interdiction, port security, aids to
navigation maintenance, the International Ice Patrol and ice breaker support
for Arctic and Antarctic research.
Given the huge workload they are saddled with and the small budget they have
to accomplish the workload, I think the Coasties do a heck of a good job.
Kevin
Bottom line: despite the CPR-givers statement early on that there was foam
from the mouth and blood from the nose and no vital signs, it took ONE HOUR
for the helo to arrive. We were incredulous that it could take so long.
You know, further to my previous post about the North West Passage...
I hate to be heretical, but one hour seems pretty fast to me. In fact, that
they came at all seems pretty fabulous. When you are out on the water, you
really have to be prepared to deal with the situation on your own. It might
sound harsh, but death by misadventure is a harsh thing. We don't have the
resources to save every single person who does something stupid. Yes, it
would be fabulous if we had somebody there to help us every time we ****ed
up, but we can't always have that.
Perhaps there is another way we could approach this, and that's to ask
"What's the moral of this story"? I hate to sound like Mike, always harping
about this, but the best lessons you are going to learn are by observing
someone else's mistakes.
Here are a few observations, right off the top of my head:
-
First dive after certification? Let's do it off the dock instead of from a
boat. And even if it's not at the dock, should we really be 38 (!!!) miles
out? -
Five guys in the water? Odd numbers are bad. Let's take it two at a time,
and have a buddy right beside the newbie. Also, 5 guys in the water meant
that the boat operator could not pick the newbie up because he was afraid of
hitting the other guys. -
Adult male taken Vital Signs Absent and not breathing from warm water?
With foam from the mouth and blood from the nose? Probably already gone. A
copter's not going to help.
So what are the lessons?
-
Do a thorough risk analysis of the situation before you set off. If you
might need help, stay close to where the help is. -
If you have a new diver, only let the new diver and his buddy into the
water (and make sure the buddy is experienced). -
Keep a line on the newbie's wrist for the first few dives, so he can get
back to the boat easily. In my time up north, we did over 1000 under-ice
dives without a single incident, and that's partially because on every single
one of those dives the diver was tethered and there was a human tending the
line. -
Make sure that every diver reads "Shadow Divers" by Robert Kurson.
Especially the part where the divers die. Just because you can get certified
in a few hours doesn't mean that it's not dangerous.
Just my two cents.
And by the way, don't you find it interesting that you never hear people
proposing higher taxes to pay for increased Coast Guard coverage?
Scott Welch
FirstClass Product Manager
www.firstclass.com
Those who make no mistakes rarely make anything.