LA
Leo Ahluwalia
Mon, Aug 28, 2023 10:40 PM
Hi, I've been looking online at the parts to build a rubidium standard and
I've noticed that there are a lot of standards which are much cheaper than
buying the parts individually from different sellers (for example, a
rubidium vapor cell can be found for around 50 bucks while I can also find
a standard for 300$). I understand that these companies have specialized
equipment and procedures for the production of these clocks, but I was
wondering if someone knew where I might be able to get my hands on cheaper
parts for building a standard (such as the microwave oscillator or rubidium
lamp/laser)
Thanks, Leo
Hi, I've been looking online at the parts to build a rubidium standard and
I've noticed that there are a lot of standards which are much cheaper than
buying the parts individually from different sellers (for example, a
rubidium vapor cell can be found for around 50 bucks while I can also find
a standard for 300$). I understand that these companies have specialized
equipment and procedures for the production of these clocks, but I was
wondering if someone knew where I might be able to get my hands on cheaper
parts for building a standard (such as the microwave oscillator or rubidium
lamp/laser)
Thanks, Leo
PS
paul swed
Sun, Sep 3, 2023 2:06 PM
Leo the best place to get parts is from a Rb reference. That gets you the
RF components and such and would be the most economical starting point. In
your last response you suggest laser. To excite the RB lamp??
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Sun, Sep 3, 2023 at 9:38 AM Leo Ahluwalia via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
Hi, I've been looking online at the parts to build a rubidium standard and
I've noticed that there are a lot of standards which are much cheaper than
buying the parts individually from different sellers (for example, a
rubidium vapor cell can be found for around 50 bucks while I can also find
a standard for 300$). I understand that these companies have specialized
equipment and procedures for the production of these clocks, but I was
wondering if someone knew where I might be able to get my hands on cheaper
parts for building a standard (such as the microwave oscillator or rubidium
lamp/laser)
Thanks, Leo
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
Leo the best place to get parts is from a Rb reference. That gets you the
RF components and such and would be the most economical starting point. In
your last response you suggest laser. To excite the RB lamp??
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Sun, Sep 3, 2023 at 9:38 AM Leo Ahluwalia via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
> Hi, I've been looking online at the parts to build a rubidium standard and
> I've noticed that there are a lot of standards which are much cheaper than
> buying the parts individually from different sellers (for example, a
> rubidium vapor cell can be found for around 50 bucks while I can also find
> a standard for 300$). I understand that these companies have specialized
> equipment and procedures for the production of these clocks, but I was
> wondering if someone knew where I might be able to get my hands on cheaper
> parts for building a standard (such as the microwave oscillator or rubidium
> lamp/laser)
>
> Thanks, Leo
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
>
BC
Bob Camp
Sun, Sep 3, 2023 2:20 PM
Hi
It is not uncommon for outfits to make some of the parts themselves. Not everybody
makes the same decisions, but they all do a fair amount of “local fab” on this or that.
They also may custom tool “captive” sources for some parts.
Next up is the simple issue of bulk buying. When you are buying a thousand parts a
month for years, you get a much better deal than somebody going out to buy one
or two pieces. Indeed, a lot of OEM’s won’t even return your emails unless you are buying
above some "may thousands of dollars worth a year” kind of level.
There really isn’t a lot of market for some of these parts at retail ( Digikey, Mouser ….).
That also makes finding a purchasing channel a bit fun. eBay is an alternative, however
you often really don’t know what you are getting.
Best guess:
That very basic Telecom Rb you see on eBay for $120 likely sells in high volume $800
brand new.In low volume it may be $1500. The BOM probably is above $300, even for the guy
making them in volume. That’s on a simple device with nothing exotic (like lasers) in it. If the
BOM goes up by 2 to 4X as you go to “one piece” that’s not totally out of the likely range.
Bob
On Aug 28, 2023, at 6:40 PM, Leo Ahluwalia via time-nuts time-nuts@lists.febo.com wrote:
Hi, I've been looking online at the parts to build a rubidium standard and
I've noticed that there are a lot of standards which are much cheaper than
buying the parts individually from different sellers (for example, a
rubidium vapor cell can be found for around 50 bucks while I can also find
a standard for 300$). I understand that these companies have specialized
equipment and procedures for the production of these clocks, but I was
wondering if someone knew where I might be able to get my hands on cheaper
parts for building a standard (such as the microwave oscillator or rubidium
lamp/laser)
Thanks, Leo
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
Hi
It is not uncommon for outfits to make some of the parts themselves. Not everybody
makes the same decisions, but they all do a fair amount of “local fab” on this or that.
They also may custom tool “captive” sources for some parts.
Next up is the simple issue of bulk buying. When you are buying a thousand parts a
month for years, you get a *much* better deal than somebody going out to buy one
or two pieces. Indeed, a lot of OEM’s won’t even return your emails unless you are buying
above some "may thousands of dollars worth a year” kind of level.
There really isn’t a lot of market for some of these parts at retail ( Digikey, Mouser ….).
That also makes finding a purchasing channel a bit fun. eBay is an alternative, however
you often really don’t know what you are getting.
Best guess:
That very basic Telecom Rb you see on eBay for $120 likely sells in high volume $800
brand new.In low volume it may be $1500. The BOM probably is above $300, even for the guy
making them in volume. That’s on a simple device with nothing exotic (like lasers) in it. If the
BOM goes up by 2 to 4X as you go to “one piece” that’s not totally out of the likely range.
Bob
> On Aug 28, 2023, at 6:40 PM, Leo Ahluwalia via time-nuts <time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
>
> Hi, I've been looking online at the parts to build a rubidium standard and
> I've noticed that there are a lot of standards which are much cheaper than
> buying the parts individually from different sellers (for example, a
> rubidium vapor cell can be found for around 50 bucks while I can also find
> a standard for 300$). I understand that these companies have specialized
> equipment and procedures for the production of these clocks, but I was
> wondering if someone knew where I might be able to get my hands on cheaper
> parts for building a standard (such as the microwave oscillator or rubidium
> lamp/laser)
>
> Thanks, Leo
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
LJ
Lux, Jim
Tue, Sep 5, 2023 2:24 PM
On 9/3/23 7:20 AM, Bob Camp via time-nuts wrote:
Hi
It is not uncommon for outfits to make some of the parts themselves. Not everybody
makes the same decisions, but they all do a fair amount of “local fab” on this or that.
They also may custom tool “captive” sources for some parts.
Next up is the simple issue of bulk buying. When you are buying a thousand parts a
month for years, you get a much better deal than somebody going out to buy one
or two pieces. Indeed, a lot of OEM’s won’t even return your emails unless you are buying
above some "may thousands of dollars worth a year” kind of level.
There really isn’t a lot of market for some of these parts at retail ( Digikey, Mouser ….).
That also makes finding a purchasing channel a bit fun. eBay is an alternative, however
you often really don’t know what you are getting.
Best guess:
That very basic Telecom Rb you see on eBay for $120 likely sells in high volume $800
brand new.In low volume it may be $1500. The BOM probably is above $300, even for the guy
making them in volume. That’s on a simple device with nothing exotic (like lasers) in it. If the
BOM goes up by 2 to 4X as you go to “one piece” that’s not totally out of the likely range.
Bob
A rule of thumb in small scale (<100 units) manufacturing is that the
retail price is 5x to 10x the cost of the Bill of Materials.
So that low volume $1500 Rb might have 150-300 in parts, counting on the
fact that some of those parts are high volume and inexpensive. If you
have to buy them all individually, it could easily be double or 5x the
unit price. For example, 10 MHz OCXOs are fairly inexpensive, but if
you need some unique frequency, with tight tolerances, your oscillators
will be a lot more expensive, But order several hundred (over some
years, even) and the per unit cost comes down a lot.
On 9/3/23 7:20 AM, Bob Camp via time-nuts wrote:
> Hi
>
> It is not uncommon for outfits to make some of the parts themselves. Not everybody
> makes the same decisions, but they all do a fair amount of “local fab” on this or that.
> They also may custom tool “captive” sources for some parts.
>
> Next up is the simple issue of bulk buying. When you are buying a thousand parts a
> month for years, you get a *much* better deal than somebody going out to buy one
> or two pieces. Indeed, a lot of OEM’s won’t even return your emails unless you are buying
> above some "may thousands of dollars worth a year” kind of level.
>
> There really isn’t a lot of market for some of these parts at retail ( Digikey, Mouser ….).
> That also makes finding a purchasing channel a bit fun. eBay is an alternative, however
> you often really don’t know what you are getting.
>
> Best guess:
>
> That very basic Telecom Rb you see on eBay for $120 likely sells in high volume $800
> brand new.In low volume it may be $1500. The BOM probably is above $300, even for the guy
> making them in volume. That’s on a simple device with nothing exotic (like lasers) in it. If the
> BOM goes up by 2 to 4X as you go to “one piece” that’s not totally out of the likely range.
>
> Bob
A rule of thumb in small scale (<100 units) manufacturing is that the
retail price is 5x to 10x the cost of the Bill of Materials.
So that low volume $1500 Rb might have 150-300 in parts, counting on the
fact that some of those parts are high volume and inexpensive. If you
have to buy them all individually, it could easily be double or 5x the
unit price. For example, 10 MHz OCXOs are fairly inexpensive, but if
you need some unique frequency, with tight tolerances, your oscillators
will be a lot more expensive, But order several hundred (over some
years, even) and the per unit cost comes down a lot.
G
glenlist
Tue, Sep 5, 2023 9:35 PM
Hi Jim
as a manufacturer of high tech complex electronics, but without yield
issues (like a Cs tube) I wouldnt quite agree with those numbers. ,
especially in modern times.
for something high tech, generally 3 to 5 x mfr cost, depending on how
much software is in it these days.....
Certainly once you reach reel quantities, prices fall, and with clever
design, you can maximum quantity of common parts on boards to more
quickly achieve reel quantities, which may be between 300 and 5000
pieces per reel . An LDO you buy from digikey for $2 might be 20 cents
on reel. Although it depends on the mfr. Some parts at Digikey that are
$2 might only be $1.50 on reel.
So, very much horses for courses.
For something that involves a poor yield, like the Cs tube, with a high
manual labour, the multiplier might be quite high- yes. and wouldnt
change much with quantity unless process improves
-glen
On 6/09/2023 12:24 am, Lux, Jim via time-nuts wrote:
On 9/3/23 7:20 AM, Bob Camp via time-nuts wrote:
Hi
It is not uncommon for outfits to make some of the parts themselves.
Not everybody
makes the same decisions, but they all do a fair amount of “local
fab” on this or that.
They also may custom tool “captive” sources for some parts.
Next up is the simple issue of bulk buying. When you are buying a
thousand parts a
month for years, you get a much better deal than somebody going out
to buy one
or two pieces. Indeed, a lot of OEM’s won’t even return your emails
unless you are buying
above some "may thousands of dollars worth a year” kind of level.
There really isn’t a lot of market for some of these
Hi Jim
as a manufacturer of high tech complex electronics, but without yield
issues (like a Cs tube) I wouldnt quite agree with those numbers. ,
especially in modern times.
for something high tech, generally 3 to 5 x mfr cost, depending on how
much software is in it these days.....
Certainly once you reach reel quantities, prices fall, and with clever
design, you can maximum quantity of common parts on boards to more
quickly achieve reel quantities, which may be between 300 and 5000
pieces per reel . An LDO you buy from digikey for $2 might be 20 cents
on reel. Although it depends on the mfr. Some parts at Digikey that are
$2 might only be $1.50 on reel.
So, very much horses for courses.
For something that involves a poor yield, like the Cs tube, with a high
manual labour, the multiplier might be quite high- yes. and wouldnt
change much with quantity unless process improves
-glen
On 6/09/2023 12:24 am, Lux, Jim via time-nuts wrote:
> On 9/3/23 7:20 AM, Bob Camp via time-nuts wrote:
>> Hi
>>
>> It is not uncommon for outfits to make some of the parts themselves.
>> Not everybody
>> makes the same decisions, but they all do a fair amount of “local
>> fab” on this or that.
>> They also may custom tool “captive” sources for some parts.
>>
>> Next up is the simple issue of bulk buying. When you are buying a
>> thousand parts a
>> month for years, you get a *much* better deal than somebody going out
>> to buy one
>> or two pieces. Indeed, a lot of OEM’s won’t even return your emails
>> unless you are buying
>> above some "may thousands of dollars worth a year” kind of level.
>>
>> There really isn’t a lot of market for some of these
AG
Adrian Godwin
Wed, Sep 6, 2023 7:50 PM
Sometimes I've heard 3x the BoM, sometimes 3x the factory gates price. The
latter sounds more believable at least for common retail items - thougfh
maybe not for items thousands of times the price.
On Wed, Sep 6, 2023 at 7:16 PM glenlist via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
Hi Jim
as a manufacturer of high tech complex electronics, but without yield
issues (like a Cs tube) I wouldnt quite agree with those numbers. ,
especially in modern times.
for something high tech, generally 3 to 5 x mfr cost, depending on how
much software is in it these days.....
Certainly once you reach reel quantities, prices fall, and with clever
design, you can maximum quantity of common parts on boards to more
quickly achieve reel quantities, which may be between 300 and 5000
pieces per reel . An LDO you buy from digikey for $2 might be 20 cents
on reel. Although it depends on the mfr. Some parts at Digikey that are
$2 might only be $1.50 on reel.
So, very much horses for courses.
For something that involves a poor yield, like the Cs tube, with a high
manual labour, the multiplier might be quite high- yes. and wouldnt
change much with quantity unless process improves
-glen
On 6/09/2023 12:24 am, Lux, Jim via time-nuts wrote:
On 9/3/23 7:20 AM, Bob Camp via time-nuts wrote:
Hi
It is not uncommon for outfits to make some of the parts themselves.
Not everybody
makes the same decisions, but they all do a fair amount of “local
fab” on this or that.
They also may custom tool “captive” sources for some parts.
Next up is the simple issue of bulk buying. When you are buying a
thousand parts a
month for years, you get a much better deal than somebody going out
to buy one
or two pieces. Indeed, a lot of OEM’s won’t even return your emails
unless you are buying
above some "may thousands of dollars worth a year” kind of level.
There really isn’t a lot of market for some of these
Sometimes I've heard 3x the BoM, sometimes 3x the factory gates price. The
latter sounds more believable at least for common retail items - thougfh
maybe not for items thousands of times the price.
On Wed, Sep 6, 2023 at 7:16 PM glenlist via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
> Hi Jim
>
> as a manufacturer of high tech complex electronics, but without yield
> issues (like a Cs tube) I wouldnt quite agree with those numbers. ,
> especially in modern times.
>
> for something high tech, generally 3 to 5 x mfr cost, depending on how
> much software is in it these days.....
>
> Certainly once you reach reel quantities, prices fall, and with clever
> design, you can maximum quantity of common parts on boards to more
> quickly achieve reel quantities, which may be between 300 and 5000
> pieces per reel . An LDO you buy from digikey for $2 might be 20 cents
> on reel. Although it depends on the mfr. Some parts at Digikey that are
> $2 might only be $1.50 on reel.
>
> So, very much horses for courses.
>
> For something that involves a poor yield, like the Cs tube, with a high
> manual labour, the multiplier might be quite high- yes. and wouldnt
> change much with quantity unless process improves
>
> -glen
>
>
> On 6/09/2023 12:24 am, Lux, Jim via time-nuts wrote:
> > On 9/3/23 7:20 AM, Bob Camp via time-nuts wrote:
> >> Hi
> >>
> >> It is not uncommon for outfits to make some of the parts themselves.
> >> Not everybody
> >> makes the same decisions, but they all do a fair amount of “local
> >> fab” on this or that.
> >> They also may custom tool “captive” sources for some parts.
> >>
> >> Next up is the simple issue of bulk buying. When you are buying a
> >> thousand parts a
> >> month for years, you get a *much* better deal than somebody going out
> >> to buy one
> >> or two pieces. Indeed, a lot of OEM’s won’t even return your emails
> >> unless you are buying
> >> above some "may thousands of dollars worth a year” kind of level.
> >>
> >> There really isn’t a lot of market for some of these
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
LJ
Lux, Jim
Fri, Sep 8, 2023 10:42 PM
On 9/5/23 2:35 PM, glenlist via time-nuts wrote:
Hi Jim
as a manufacturer of high tech complex electronics, but without yield
issues (like a Cs tube) I wouldnt quite agree with those numbers. ,
especially in modern times.
for something high tech, generally 3 to 5 x mfr cost, depending on how
much software is in it these days.....
yeah, I was used to fairly straightforward things (PWBs, mechanical
stuff) so we figured from BoM (parts) cost - figuring labor is in the
multiplier.
And of course, a lot depends on the distribution channel - we'd protect
our distributors and the downstream retailers, so "factory price" was
always MSRP, and higher than you could actually buy it for in
distribution. We didn't want to run a sales organization, or more
importantly, a support organization.
Someone else posted 3xparts to wholesale another 3x to retail - and that
could work (it's 9x parts)..
A sufficiently small fraction of the parts cost of what I worked with
was discrete components - so going from a $0.01 resistor to a $0.001
resistor didn't make much difference. Going from a $100 Qty:1 motor to
a $50 Qty:25 motor made a bigger difference. Metal fabrication also
sees a pretty fast decrease in cost when you order 100 identical
brackets vs 1 - setup and lot charges.
Certainly once you reach reel quantities, prices fall, and with clever
design, you can maximum quantity of common parts on boards to more
quickly achieve reel quantities, which may be between 300 and 5000
pieces per reel . An LDO you buy from digikey for $2 might be 20 cents
on reel. Although it depends on the mfr. Some parts at Digikey that
are $2 might only be $1.50 on reel.
So, very much horses for courses.
For something that involves a poor yield, like the Cs tube, with a
high manual labour, the multiplier might be quite high- yes. and
wouldnt change much with quantity unless process improves
-glen
On 6/09/2023 12:24 am, Lux, Jim via time-nuts wrote:
On 9/3/23 7:20 AM, Bob Camp via time-nuts wrote:
Hi
It is not uncommon for outfits to make some of the parts themselves.
Not everybody
makes the same decisions, but they all do a fair amount of “local
fab” on this or that.
They also may custom tool “captive” sources for some parts.
Next up is the simple issue of bulk buying. When you are buying a
thousand parts a
month for years, you get a much better deal than somebody going
out to buy one
or two pieces. Indeed, a lot of OEM’s won’t even return your emails
unless you are buying
above some "may thousands of dollars worth a year” kind of level.
There really isn’t a lot of market for some of these
On 9/5/23 2:35 PM, glenlist via time-nuts wrote:
> Hi Jim
>
> as a manufacturer of high tech complex electronics, but without yield
> issues (like a Cs tube) I wouldnt quite agree with those numbers. ,
> especially in modern times.
>
> for something high tech, generally 3 to 5 x mfr cost, depending on how
> much software is in it these days.....
yeah, I was used to fairly straightforward things (PWBs, mechanical
stuff) so we figured from BoM (parts) cost - figuring labor is in the
multiplier.
And of course, a lot depends on the distribution channel - we'd protect
our distributors and the downstream retailers, so "factory price" was
always MSRP, and higher than you could actually buy it for in
distribution. We didn't want to run a sales organization, or more
importantly, a support organization.
Someone else posted 3xparts to wholesale another 3x to retail - and that
could work (it's 9x parts)..
A sufficiently small fraction of the parts cost of what I worked with
was discrete components - so going from a $0.01 resistor to a $0.001
resistor didn't make much difference. Going from a $100 Qty:1 motor to
a $50 Qty:25 motor made a bigger difference. Metal fabrication also
sees a pretty fast decrease in cost when you order 100 identical
brackets vs 1 - setup and lot charges.
>
> Certainly once you reach reel quantities, prices fall, and with clever
> design, you can maximum quantity of common parts on boards to more
> quickly achieve reel quantities, which may be between 300 and 5000
> pieces per reel . An LDO you buy from digikey for $2 might be 20 cents
> on reel. Although it depends on the mfr. Some parts at Digikey that
> are $2 might only be $1.50 on reel.
>
> So, very much horses for courses.
>
> For something that involves a poor yield, like the Cs tube, with a
> high manual labour, the multiplier might be quite high- yes. and
> wouldnt change much with quantity unless process improves
>
> -glen
>
>
> On 6/09/2023 12:24 am, Lux, Jim via time-nuts wrote:
>> On 9/3/23 7:20 AM, Bob Camp via time-nuts wrote:
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> It is not uncommon for outfits to make some of the parts themselves.
>>> Not everybody
>>> makes the same decisions, but they all do a fair amount of “local
>>> fab” on this or that.
>>> They also may custom tool “captive” sources for some parts.
>>>
>>> Next up is the simple issue of bulk buying. When you are buying a
>>> thousand parts a
>>> month for years, you get a *much* better deal than somebody going
>>> out to buy one
>>> or two pieces. Indeed, a lot of OEM’s won’t even return your emails
>>> unless you are buying
>>> above some "may thousands of dollars worth a year” kind of level.
>>>
>>> There really isn’t a lot of market for some of these
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
>
