Hi Jeremy:

It's a very bad idea to put any battery with acid in an enclosure that has electronics since if it vents the acid will
etch the PCBs.
Guess how I learned this.  I got a great price on a Gibbs Frequency Standard because the oven no longer worked.
http://prc68.com/I/office_equip.html

Modern Ni-Cad batteries have much more capacity than older ones and no longer have a memory effect.  They are also very
easy to charge, so why not just replace the old cells?

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke, N6GCE
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
The lesser of evils is still evil.

-------- Original Message --------

Hi Brooke,

sorry I have to disappoint you; Ni-Cd batteries do not use any acid,
they have K-OH  kalium hidrioxid  [potassium hydroxide  for anglophone ]
as electrolyte and they are normally very air-tide, and widely used in
radios.

73

KJ6UHN

Alex

On 9/14/2016 4:45 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote:

Hi Alex:

Yes, I'm recommending Ni-Cad but NOT any acid type.

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
The lesser of evils is still evil.

-------- Original Message --------

Thanks, Brooke, I'll price new Ni-Cads. I wasn't thinking of lead-acid (gel
cells) but rather lithium rechargeable, providing I can find a type that
won't catch fire and will work with the 105B'scircuits.

Jeremy

On Wednesday, September 14, 2016, Brooke Clarke brooke@pacific.net wrote:

--
Sent from Gmail Mobile

NiMH batteries are close the same voltage and charge the same as NiCd
and are more available and not toxic when disposing of them. They should
be a good replacement.  Lithiums are very different in voltage and charging.

David N1HAC

On 9/14/16 10:19 PM, Jeremy Nichols wrote:

Hi Jeremy:

I'm currently having fun playing with various rechargeable battery related stuff  which includes Li-Ion cells.
http://www.prc68.com/I/BatTst.shtml#Resistor
The cells come in three configurations:

1. the raw flat top cell with optional tabs to allow easy soldering into a pack,
2. cell plus positive button cap which includes a Positive Temperature Coefficient (PTC) fuse and an over pressure vent,
3. fully protected, like 2, plus circuit that turns off the battery if charging and over voltage or loaded and under
   voltage.  On these you can feel a wire/ribbon running from positive to negative under the shrink wrap and they are
   slightly longer.
   These configurations are independent of the flavor of Li chemistry.

To go with any of the above you need a charger specific to the particular Li chemistry (the charging voltage is not the
same) and if a pack you also need a either cells like 3 above or a protection circuit for the pack.  For optimum
performance in addition a tap between each virtual cell (made of of parallel cells) so that the charge can be balanced
and a charger that can do that.  This is not easy, witness the current recall of the Galaxy Note 7s phones.

I would just use modern Ni-Cad cells mainly because of the ease of charging and maintaining them and use the existing
charging circuitry.
Li chemistry has advantages for portable equipment, but not so much for rack mounted equipment.

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
The lesser of evils is still evil.

-------- Original Message --------

Hi

A bigger question becomes:

Do batteries inside equipment make much sense anymore?

These days, a UPS is often a standard part of a rack in an outage prone area. Powering
the “whatever” instrument off of the same UPS as the rest of the stuff is one obvious
answer.

The other answer is an even older approach. Use a battery bank that is external to all
the gear in the rack and tend it independently of each box in the rack. That way you have
a few very large cells to worry about rather than a whole bunch scattered about. Things like
lead acid that are impractical in a piece of gear are more of an option in an independent
battery box. A single charger / line supply makes it easier to invest in something with real
smarts in it. The advent of dirt cheap isolated switchers makes the conversion to instrument
voltages a lot easier than it once was. Pick a common voltage like 12, 24, or 48V and run with it.

My answer to the frequency standard battery pack question has become “don’t do it”. It makes
them a lot lighter weight !!!

Bob

Brookes comments are the facts you can not use simple charging circuits.
But smart charging circuits seem to be available on various sites for low
cost. It seems the RC modelers have helped us out.
The thing I will say is I have ordered new nicad C cell batteries from
major a major vendor and they did not last long at all for the cost I was
quite disappointed.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 12:59 PM, Brooke Clarke brooke@pacific.net wrote:

I had my local BatteriesPlus rebuild my pack for my 105B about 4 years ago and it's still working well as I recall the cost was about 175. But I specified use best quality cells.  Plus they have the proper battery welder and test gear and they have more vendor clout to get consistently good cells as opposed to getting them mail order or through the well known auction sites

Content by Scott
Typos by Siri

Brooke, I priced Ni-Cds and was not happy with the numbers: a set of 20
D-size cells will cost me ~US$100 by the time I get them delivered. That
plus the 8-pound weight penalty makes replacement Ni-Cd cells
unattractive. (105A = 16 pounds, 105B = 24 pounds including the battery
box and charging circuitry) There is no question that Ni-Cds are the
answer for anyone attempting to restore a 105B for competition in the
neighborhood Concours d'Elegance.

I do appreciate your work on the relative merits of the various Lithium
types. I was afraid the existing charge circuitry in the 105B would not
mate well with Lithium-anything batteries. Having twice set the house
afire through assorted misadventures (thank goodness for smoke alarms
and fire extinguishers),  I don't want to try for "Number 3".

Jeremy

On 9/15/2016 9:59 AM, Brooke Clarke wrote:

Your point is well made. My question is: what happens to the quality of
the output sine wave if I use anything other than a true sine-wave
(i.e., expensive) UPS? Most of them these days produce a semi-sine wave
(aka modified square wave) that may or may not play well with the 105B.
Anyone have experience?

A external battery and appropriate chargers and cabling does sound like
another good alternative. Harder to move around but I don't (yet) have
such a need, only that the 105B stay "on" regardless of power failures.

Jeremy

On 9/15/2016 10:15 AM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi I've run my HP105B (with the old style oscillator) from AC power via a consumer grade UPS, 24 Vdc from a lead acid battery bank and briefly from the internal battery pack with out any notable changes in performance (that being said I can't measure phase noise so this observation may or may not be of use.)

I'm not to fussed over the internal Nicad pack and rely on an external battery bank in case I loose AC power for an extended time period.

During a two day outage my HP105B and FTS1050 ran nicely from a 100 AH battery bank but the batteries needed to be replaced shortly afterwards.

Sent from my iPhone

Hi

It’s been quite a while since I bought anything other than a pure sine UPS. They really aren’t as expensive
as they once were. You may find them a bit cheaper from outfits like CyberPower than from APC. Sometimes
it s a bit tough to work out exactly what is or is not a pure sine wave unit. If you want a full “always on” pure
sine device, they are still a bit expensive.

Bob

if you deep discharge led acid batteries -- which are not made special
for deep discharge -- you will have to replace them quite often, on the
other hand Ni-Fe batteries you could short out, overcharge they are
undisrtuktable that is the reason why they are not produced any more in
the US, they do not fit into the American business-model, but phone
companies, railway and aviation still using them, you could still find
old electrical forklifts with Ni-Fe battery made by Edison Batteries in
the sixties in the past century the batteries are still fine. Tudor -- a
led-acid battery producer -- purchased Edison Batteries and closed down
the formidable competitor

73
KL6UHN
Alex

On 9/15/2016 2:26 PM, Mark Spencer wrote:

Since I have a 12V 100 A-H gelled electrolyte battery as a
short-term backup (for those outages not worth firing up the generator),
I'd like to find a UPS that uses an external battery. So far I don't see
such a thing--do they exist?

Jeremy

On Thursday, September 15, 2016, Bob Camp kb8tq@n1k.org wrote:

--
Sent from Gmail Mobile

They do exist.  I've seen them in service at Telecom sites outside of the U.S. and Canada.  I believe there was a thread re this a few years ago ?

Sent from my iPhone

Thanks I was  aware of Ni Fe batteries but have never seen them for sale at the local "battery store" where I buy batteries for my vehicles, time nuts and amateur radio pursuits (:

I view lead acid batteries (especially ones designed for in door use) as semi expendable for my various hobbies.    I figure I got my monies worth from the ones backing up the HP105B and FTS 1050 as I am well on my way to 10 years of up time for those two devices.

I tend to replace  batteries on general principles every 5 years or so or at least move them to a less demanding application.  (Ie. shuffle them from time nuts backup use to portable power use for amateur radio.)

Sent from my iPhone

Yo Jeremy!

On Thu, 15 Sep 2016 15:13:59 -0700
Jeremy Nichols jn6wfo@gmail.com wrote:

Not in the store, but they are easy to make.  I take consumer grade
CyberPower sine wave supplies.  Remove the expensive and wimpy 12V9A
gells cells.  Then I put two 6V deep cycle tractor batteries in a
battery box and cable them into the UPS with #6 wire from old jumper
cables.  To make it nice and neat, I fuse it with inline 50Amp fuses and
50Amp DC connectors.  Total cost about $200.

I've been doing that for almost two decades and have 6 running now.
I'll get two or three hours of backup from them.  Two weeks ago I had a
45 minute power outage, my network never hiccuped.  The batteries need
replacing about every five years.

APC UPS can't handle the longer runtime, but never had a problem with
any version of CyberPower.

Just be sure that everything you need to stay up is on a UPS, and that
they are well within their load rating.

I can post pictures if anyone wants.

RGDS
GARY

Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703
gem@rellim.com  Tel:+1 541 382 8588

Look for a  POWERVAR model ABCE150-11M2.  It has an IEC plug and
connector for 120 Volt in and out along with a yellow SB-50 connector
for the 12 VDC battery connector.  Compatible with LiFePO4  and SLA
battery chemistries

On 9/15/2016 6:21 PM, Mark Spencer wrote: