I agree with John Marshall that we should look at Steve Dashew's "Windhorse" which has to be the only breakthrough in passagemakers that I have heard of, and we should have a go at debating his innovations. I cannot see anything on his boat that I don't admire when I put into context of what he and his wife were trying to achieve. Waffling on about the good old days is just negative ramblings from some old codger's trying to justify a time out there sailing with the bare basics, when the guys with the spas on board these days were landlocked and had their heads down and butts up scrounging for a dollar for their dream retirement. A perfect passagemaker is a boat that will take you safely and comfortably over a long distance, keeping the water on the outside, and giving you a deep sense of satisfaction when you wrap up your lines at the end. Question: What do people thing about Dashews need for speed on his FPB, and is it worth it? Peter

I'm sure there have been times when we all wish we could have outrun some weather but with the availability of good reports these days and a willingness to take it easy speed is not critical. To me the passage is as important as the goal. God Bless - Ross 10&2 On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 1:19 AM, Peter Sheppard <Peter@petersheppard.com.au> wrote: > I agree with John Marshall that we should look at Steve Dashew's > "Windhorse" which has to be the only breakthrough in passagemakers that > I have heard of, and we should have a go at debating his innovations. I > cannot see anything on his boat that I don't admire when I put into > context of what he and his wife were trying to achieve. > > Waffling on about the good old days is just negative ramblings from some > old codger's trying to justify a time out there sailing with the bare > basics, when the guys with the spas on board these days were landlocked > and had their heads down and butts up scrounging for a dollar for their > dream retirement. > > A perfect passagemaker is a boat that will take you safely and > comfortably over a long distance, keeping the water on the outside, and > giving you a deep sense of satisfaction when you wrap up your lines at > the end. > > Question: What do people thing about Dashews need for speed on his FPB, > and is it worth it? > > Peter > _______________________________________________ > http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power > > To unsubscribe send email to > passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word > UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message. > > Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.

I think you missed the point of Dashew's discussion on speed... it has nothing to do with waiting for the right forecast and enjoying the passage. The atmosphere can simply change enough during a very long passage to render any initial forecast useless. The weather crystal-ball reduces accuracy with lead time, and while a 3 or 4 day forecast is pretty good, a 7 to 10 way one isn't so great. Not to mention the 20 to 30 days it will take a slow boat to make the longest passages. This isn't fixable with improved forecasting. He's found that if you get the best possible daily weather updates underway, you can still get in situations where you can't avoid severe weather with a 7 or 8 knot boat, but at 11 to 12 knots, you can always get out of the way. Also, you have to have the excess range to make a huge detour. His conclusion comes from vast experience, given he's been passagemaking for something like 30 years. That speed requirement is the single most difficult requirement of his designs. To have much greater range than the passage requires (something like 4000 miles at 11 or 12 knots, given the longest passages have a great-circle distance approaching 3000 miles) means a very long, skinny boat... you can't get efficient hull speeds like that on anything we could envision building. He wound up at 83 feet. The alternative that sail boats have used to deal with this uncertainty is hoving-to when you are exhausted and using a parachute drogue or sea-anchor when conditions overwhelm you. No crew can keep going when the weather gets too bad. The first technique doesn't work for a power boat, but the second can, albeit with a lot of pre- planning and setup. But the issue of sea-anchors along would fill a book. Anyway, while Dashew was prepared for the later, his design goal was to have a power passagemaker that took the entire issue out of consideration. That meant lots of speed. John On Dec 12, 2008, at 5:47 AM, Ross Anderson wrote: > I'm sure there have been times when we all wish we could have outrun > some weather but with the availability of good reports these days and > a willingness to take it easy speed is not critical. To me the passage > is as important as the goal. God Bless - Ross 10&2 > > On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 1:19 AM, Peter Sheppard > <Peter@petersheppard.com.au> wrote: >> I agree with John Marshall that we should look at Steve Dashew's >> "Windhorse" which has to be the only breakthrough in passagemakers >> that >> I have heard of, and we should have a go at debating his >> innovations. I >> cannot see anything on his boat that I don't admire when I put into >> context of what he and his wife were trying to achieve. >> >> Waffling on about the good old days is just negative ramblings from >> some >> old codger's trying to justify a time out there sailing with the bare >> basics, when the guys with the spas on board these days were >> landlocked >> and had their heads down and butts up scrounging for a dollar for >> their >> dream retirement. >> >> A perfect passagemaker is a boat that will take you safely and >> comfortably over a long distance, keeping the water on the outside, >> and >> giving you a deep sense of satisfaction when you wrap up your lines >> at >> the end. >> >> Question: What do people thing about Dashews need for speed on his >> FPB, >> and is it worth it? >> >> Peter >> _______________________________________________ >> http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power >> >> To unsubscribe send email to >> passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word >> UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message. >> >> Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World >> Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions. > _______________________________________________ > http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power > > To unsubscribe send email to > passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word > UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message. > > Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World > Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.

I stand corrected, and agree with the long passage as that has happened to me, however since most of us have trawlers with 7 to 9 kt cruise speed isn't possible. At my Age memory is short and the bad passages are filed at the bottom while the good ones are easily retrieved. God Bless - Ross 10&2 On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 11:12 AM, John Marshall <johnamar1101@gmail.com> wrote: > I think you missed the point of Dashew's discussion on speed... it has > nothing to do with waiting for the right forecast and enjoying the > passage. The atmosphere can simply change enough during a very long > passage to render any initial forecast useless. > > The weather crystal-ball reduces accuracy with lead time, and while a > 3 or 4 day forecast is pretty good, a 7 to 10 way one isn't so great. > Not to mention the 20 to 30 days it will take a slow boat to make the > longest passages. This isn't fixable with improved forecasting. > > He's found that if you get the best possible daily weather updates > underway, you can still get in situations where you can't avoid severe > weather with a 7 or 8 knot boat, but at 11 to 12 knots, you can always > get out of the way. Also, you have to have the excess range to make a > huge detour. His conclusion comes from vast experience, given he's > been passagemaking for something like 30 years. > > That speed requirement is the single most difficult requirement of his > designs. To have much greater range than the passage requires > (something like 4000 miles at 11 or 12 knots, given the longest > passages have a great-circle distance approaching 3000 miles) means a > very long, skinny boat... you can't get efficient hull speeds like > that on anything we could envision building. He wound up at 83 feet. > > The alternative that sail boats have used to deal with this > uncertainty is hoving-to when you are exhausted and using a parachute > drogue or sea-anchor when conditions overwhelm you. No crew can keep > going when the weather gets too bad. The first technique doesn't work > for a power boat, but the second can, albeit with a lot of pre- > planning and setup. But the issue of sea-anchors along would fill a > book. > > Anyway, while Dashew was prepared for the later, his design goal was > to have a power passagemaker that took the entire issue out of > consideration. That meant lots of speed. > > John > > On Dec 12, 2008, at 5:47 AM, Ross Anderson wrote: > >> I'm sure there have been times when we all wish we could have outrun >> some weather but with the availability of good reports these days and >> a willingness to take it easy speed is not critical. To me the passage >> is as important as the goal. God Bless - Ross 10&2 >> >> On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 1:19 AM, Peter Sheppard >> <Peter@petersheppard.com.au> wrote: >>> I agree with John Marshall that we should look at Steve Dashew's >>> "Windhorse" which has to be the only breakthrough in passagemakers >>> that >>> I have heard of, and we should have a go at debating his >>> innovations. I >>> cannot see anything on his boat that I don't admire when I put into >>> context of what he and his wife were trying to achieve. >>> >>> Waffling on about the good old days is just negative ramblings from >>> some >>> old codger's trying to justify a time out there sailing with the bare >>> basics, when the guys with the spas on board these days were >>> landlocked >>> and had their heads down and butts up scrounging for a dollar for >>> their >>> dream retirement. >>> >>> A perfect passagemaker is a boat that will take you safely and >>> comfortably over a long distance, keeping the water on the outside, >>> and >>> giving you a deep sense of satisfaction when you wrap up your lines >>> at >>> the end. >>> >>> Question: What do people thing about Dashews need for speed on his >>> FPB, >>> and is it worth it? >>> >>> Peter >>> _______________________________________________ >>> http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power >>> >>> To unsubscribe send email to >>> passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word >>> UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message. >>> >>> Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World >>> Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions. >> _______________________________________________ >> http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power >> >> To unsubscribe send email to >> passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word >> UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message. >> >> Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World >> Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions. > _______________________________________________ > http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/passagemaking-under-power > > To unsubscribe send email to > passagemaking-under-power-request@lists.samurai.com with the word > UNSUBSCRIBE and nothing else in the subject or body of the message. > > Passagemaking Under Power and PUP are trademarks of Water World Productions, formerly known as Trawler World Productions.