Empathy List Archives

DS

Don Sorensen

Tue, Jan 29, 2008 4:23 PM

My house battery bank is reaching the end of their useful life. I have ten
Interstate Workaholics. These are similar to Trojan 105's. They performed
well for eight years, but now they just won't perform as they used to do.
Where they used to give me 36 hours plus of use while on the inverter, it is
down to less than four hours. So, it is time to replace them.

I spent hours talking to battery reps at the Seattle Boat Show tis past
week. I looked at Rolls, Trojan, Dyno, Meridian, Lifeline etc etc.

I found that wet cell golf cart batteries are the cheapest to buy. They were
around $150 (less boat show price 0f 15%) and were about 200 amp hours. With
my ten batteries I would have about 1000 amp hours for $1,350.

The Rolls varied from $350-500 dollars for each ten year life 240 amp hr.
wet cells. Special caps were an additional $20 for each cell. So a bank of
these would run about $3,500 - $5,000 depending on the amp hours.

Then there were the AGM Lifelines, Meridians etc. These ran almost $650
each, however being 12 volts, I would only need 5 of these. Again these
would cost about $3,500 but require no maintenance.

Using these as ball park cost, amp hours, life span etc, how does one
justify the leap from the basic golf cart batteries to the hefty Rolls or
the AGM Meridians?

I would be interested in any of your thoughts.

Don Sorensen
M/V Esperanza
60 DeFever
Seattle/Dallas

My house battery bank is reaching the end of their useful life. I have ten Interstate Workaholics. These are similar to Trojan 105's. They performed well for eight years, but now they just won't perform as they used to do. Where they used to give me 36 hours plus of use while on the inverter, it is down to less than four hours. So, it is time to replace them. I spent hours talking to battery reps at the Seattle Boat Show tis past week. I looked at Rolls, Trojan, Dyno, Meridian, Lifeline etc etc. I found that wet cell golf cart batteries are the cheapest to buy. They were around $150 (less boat show price 0f 15%) and were about 200 amp hours. With my ten batteries I would have about 1000 amp hours for $1,350. The Rolls varied from $350-500 dollars for each ten year life 240 amp hr. wet cells. Special caps were an additional $20 for each cell. So a bank of these would run about $3,500 - $5,000 depending on the amp hours. Then there were the AGM Lifelines, Meridians etc. These ran almost $650 each, however being 12 volts, I would only need 5 of these. Again these would cost about $3,500 but require no maintenance. Using these as ball park cost, amp hours, life span etc, how does one justify the leap from the basic golf cart batteries to the hefty Rolls or the AGM Meridians? I would be interested in any of your thoughts. Don Sorensen M/V Esperanza 60 DeFever Seattle/Dallas

RC

R C Smith Jr

Tue, Jan 29, 2008 5:21 PM

Don Sorensen wrote:

Then there were the AGM Lifelines, Meridians etc. These ran almost $650
each, however being 12 volts, I would only need 5 of these. Again these
would cost about $3,500 but require no maintenance.

Don, I did 4 8D AGMs from West Marine, which gives you 980 Ahrs for $2400.
In addition to no maintenance, they recharge much faster...but I have not
quantified that.

Bob

Robert Calhoun Smith Jr in DC
M/V MARY KATHRYN
Hatteras 58 LRC
Jib Room
Marsh Harbour, Abaco
BAHAMAS

Don Sorensen wrote: > Then there were the AGM Lifelines, Meridians etc. These ran almost $650 > each, however being 12 volts, I would only need 5 of these. Again these > would cost about $3,500 but require no maintenance. Don, I did 4 8D AGMs from West Marine, which gives you 980 Ahrs for $2400. In addition to no maintenance, they recharge much faster...but I have not quantified that. Bob ________________ Robert Calhoun Smith Jr in DC M/V MARY KATHRYN Hatteras 58 LRC Jib Room Marsh Harbour, Abaco BAHAMAS

RC

Richard Cook

Tue, Jan 29, 2008 5:44 PM

Hi Don,

I'd find a local battery supply house, not a marine store, and look at
the 6V GC-size AGM's made by East Penn Deka.

They're sold under various brand names, one of which is West Marine's
SeaVolt (2007 catalog), which is Deka model 8AGC2. Deka's web site
shows their latest line as "SeaMate", model 8AGC2M, at 187 AH, and
69.5lb each.

My somewhat smaller house bank, two Deka/SeaVolt group 31 AGM's,
finished their seventh year last summer still performing very much like
new. They're really quality batteries.

I got mine for about 60% of WM's price. If you could do similarly, I
think your AGM house bank might be half the $3500 you mention.

Richard Cook
New Moon (Bounty 257)

Don Sorensen wrote:

My house battery bank is reaching the end of their useful life. I have ten
Interstate Workaholics. These are similar to Trojan 105's. They performed
well for eight years, but now they just won't perform as they used to do.
Where they used to give me 36 hours plus of use while on the inverter, it is
down to less than four hours. So, it is time to replace them.

I spent hours talking to battery reps at the Seattle Boat Show tis past
week. I looked at Rolls, Trojan, Dyno, Meridian, Lifeline etc etc.

I found that wet cell golf cart batteries are the cheapest to buy. They were
around $150 (less boat show price 0f 15%) and were about 200 amp hours. With
my ten batteries I would have about 1000 amp hours for $1,350.

The Rolls varied from $350-500 dollars for each ten year life 240 amp hr.
wet cells. Special caps were an additional $20 for each cell. So a bank of
these would run about $3,500 - $5,000 depending on the amp hours.

Then there were the AGM Lifelines, Meridians etc. These ran almost $650
each, however being 12 volts, I would only need 5 of these. Again these
would cost about $3,500 but require no maintenance.

Using these as ball park cost, amp hours, life span etc, how does one
justify the leap from the basic golf cart batteries to the hefty Rolls or
the AGM Meridians?

I would be interested in any of your thoughts.

Hi Don, I'd find a local battery supply house, not a marine store, and look at the 6V GC-size AGM's made by East Penn Deka. They're sold under various brand names, one of which is West Marine's SeaVolt (2007 catalog), which is Deka model 8AGC2. Deka's web site shows their latest line as "SeaMate", model 8AGC2M, at 187 AH, and 69.5lb each. My somewhat smaller house bank, two Deka/SeaVolt group 31 AGM's, finished their seventh year last summer still performing very much like new. They're really quality batteries. I got mine for about 60% of WM's price. If you could do similarly, I think your AGM house bank might be half the $3500 you mention. Richard Cook New Moon (Bounty 257) Don Sorensen wrote: > My house battery bank is reaching the end of their useful life. I have ten > Interstate Workaholics. These are similar to Trojan 105's. They performed > well for eight years, but now they just won't perform as they used to do. > Where they used to give me 36 hours plus of use while on the inverter, it is > down to less than four hours. So, it is time to replace them. > > I spent hours talking to battery reps at the Seattle Boat Show tis past > week. I looked at Rolls, Trojan, Dyno, Meridian, Lifeline etc etc. > > I found that wet cell golf cart batteries are the cheapest to buy. They were > around $150 (less boat show price 0f 15%) and were about 200 amp hours. With > my ten batteries I would have about 1000 amp hours for $1,350. > > The Rolls varied from $350-500 dollars for each ten year life 240 amp hr. > wet cells. Special caps were an additional $20 for each cell. So a bank of > these would run about $3,500 - $5,000 depending on the amp hours. > > Then there were the AGM Lifelines, Meridians etc. These ran almost $650 > each, however being 12 volts, I would only need 5 of these. Again these > would cost about $3,500 but require no maintenance. > > Using these as ball park cost, amp hours, life span etc, how does one > justify the leap from the basic golf cart batteries to the hefty Rolls or > the AGM Meridians? > > I would be interested in any of your thoughts.

SD

Steven Dubnoff

Tue, Jan 29, 2008 6:34 PM

Using these as ball park cost, amp hours, life span etc, how does one
justify the leap from the basic golf cart batteries to the hefty Rolls or
the AGM Meridians?

You should look at this "classic" web site:

http://www.vonwentzel.net/Battery/index.html

In which the argument is made that if you factor in the costs of
running your generator to charge batteries and the slowness and
inefficiencies of charging wet cells compared with AGM's, that AGM's
are actually less expensive.

If you go with regular batteries, the Hydrocaps are worth the
money. They will outlast the batteries and drastically reduce the
need to water them. (Myself, while I am very happy with Trojan
L-16's, I am sure I would be even happier with AGM's, if I could have
tolerated the sticker shock).

Best,

Steve

Steve Dubnoff
1966 Willard Pilothouse
www.mvnereid.com
sdubnoff@circlesys.com

>Using these as ball park cost, amp hours, life span etc, how does one >justify the leap from the basic golf cart batteries to the hefty Rolls or >the AGM Meridians? You should look at this "classic" web site: http://www.vonwentzel.net/Battery/index.html In which the argument is made that if you factor in the costs of running your generator to charge batteries and the slowness and inefficiencies of charging wet cells compared with AGM's, that AGM's are actually less expensive. If you go with regular batteries, the Hydrocaps are worth the money. They will outlast the batteries and drastically reduce the need to water them. (Myself, while I am very happy with Trojan L-16's, I am sure I would be even happier with AGM's, if I could have tolerated the sticker shock). Best, Steve Steve Dubnoff 1966 Willard Pilothouse www.mvnereid.com sdubnoff@circlesys.com

SW

Sean Welsh

Tue, Jan 29, 2008 7:29 PM

Don Sorensen wrote:

Using these as ball park cost, amp hours, life span etc, how does one
justify the leap from the basic golf cart batteries to the hefty Rolls or
the AGM Meridians?

Don,

I wouldn't even consider wet cells, and, when we finally buy our
trawler, if it has even brand new wet cells in it, we'll ditch them for
AGM's.

In my case, I would make this tradeoff on the maintenance factor alone
-- I just don't want to deal with watering batteries, nor with the
hassles of possible hydrogen gas in the battery compartments, ongoing
corrosion of the terminals, etc. Also, in a moving boat, I would rather
not run the risk that electrolyte will spill out of the batteries in a
seaway -- AGM's can be safely mounted and operated in any orientation,
even upside down.

That said, when we did the financial analysis, it came out neck-on-neck,
with AGM actually just edging out flooded. Here's why:

(1) Getting the best performance out of batteries is a multi-variable
optimization problem. To simplify the analysis, it is generally
recognized that flooded batteries should never be discharged below 50%
of capacity, whereas AGM batteries can be safely discharged to about 20%
of capacity. In either case, discharging less will yield more "cycles,"
but, of course, each cycle will involve less usage. Bottom line: you
need fewer amp-hours of AGM's for the same usable capacity of flooded
batteries.

(2) AGM batteries will accept a higher charge rate than flooded
batteries. If, like me, you would have to dial a lower setting on your
charger for the flooded batteries, and, like me, you generally recharge
by running your generator, then flooded cells will involve more
generator run-time to recharge. Fuel and maintenance expenses for your
generator will thus be greater.

(3) AGM batteries do not require spill protection or auxiliary
non-sparking ventilation, which can add significantly to the cost of a
complete installation.

YMMV, but this what what we concluded. Also, I will echo others'
comments that you can find AGM's much cheaper if you shop around --
marine suppliers are notorious for being at the high end of the price
curve. Some quality time spent on the internet will usually turn up
some good deals, typically at alternative energy suppliers. FWIW, we
went with eight Trojan size 8D AGM's at our last battery change, and we
are very happy with them.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com

Don Sorensen wrote: > Using these as ball park cost, amp hours, life span etc, how does one > justify the leap from the basic golf cart batteries to the hefty Rolls or > the AGM Meridians? > Don, I wouldn't even consider wet cells, and, when we finally buy our trawler, if it has even brand new wet cells in it, we'll ditch them for AGM's. In my case, I would make this tradeoff on the maintenance factor alone -- I just don't want to deal with watering batteries, nor with the hassles of possible hydrogen gas in the battery compartments, ongoing corrosion of the terminals, etc. Also, in a moving boat, I would rather not run the risk that electrolyte will spill out of the batteries in a seaway -- AGM's can be safely mounted and operated in any orientation, even upside down. That said, when we did the financial analysis, it came out neck-on-neck, with AGM actually just edging out flooded. Here's why: (1) Getting the best performance out of batteries is a multi-variable optimization problem. To simplify the analysis, it is generally recognized that flooded batteries should never be discharged below 50% of capacity, whereas AGM batteries can be safely discharged to about 20% of capacity. In either case, discharging less will yield more "cycles," but, of course, each cycle will involve less usage. Bottom line: you need fewer amp-hours of AGM's for the same usable capacity of flooded batteries. (2) AGM batteries will accept a higher charge rate than flooded batteries. If, like me, you would have to dial a lower setting on your charger for the flooded batteries, and, like me, you generally recharge by running your generator, then flooded cells will involve more generator run-time to recharge. Fuel and maintenance expenses for your generator will thus be greater. (3) AGM batteries do not require spill protection or auxiliary non-sparking ventilation, which can add significantly to the cost of a complete installation. YMMV, but this what what we concluded. Also, I will echo others' comments that you can find AGM's much cheaper if you shop around -- marine suppliers are notorious for being at the high end of the price curve. Some quality time spent on the internet will usually turn up some good deals, typically at alternative energy suppliers. FWIW, we went with eight Trojan size 8D AGM's at our last battery change, and we are very happy with them. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com

SH

Scott H.E. Welch

Tue, Jan 29, 2008 8:00 PM

"Don Sorensen" dsoren@sbcglobal.net writes:

Then there were the AGM Lifelines, Meridians etc. These ran almost $650
each, however being 12 volts, I would only need 5 of these. Again these
would cost about $3,500 but require no maintenance.

When I rebuilt Island Eagle (2003), I put in 7 Lifeline 8D AGM batteries. All
but one of them are now gone. The two engine starting batteries lasted 2
years. The house bank (two sets of 24 volts) lasted 4 years. I was not
impressed. And before you blame the chargers, these were both on good, modern
3-stage chargers. I would not put in Lifelines again.

For the starting bank I switched to some no-name Chinese AGM 8Ds, and they
have been just fine so far.

For the house bank, I switched to L16 AGM batteries, and these have been
awesome. They are much lighter than the 8Ds, but really pack the power (1080
Amp Hours at the 10 hour rate). The price I got from my local battery shop
was excellent. I have a bank of 12 of these in series/parallel to get 24
volts at 3240 AH.

Here's a link to the specs: http://www.discover-energy.com/files/EV216A.pdf

No connection, etc.

Scott Welch
FirstClass Product Manager
www.firstclass.com

Those who make no mistakes rarely make anything.

"Don Sorensen" <dsoren@sbcglobal.net> writes: >Then there were the AGM Lifelines, Meridians etc. These ran almost $650 >each, however being 12 volts, I would only need 5 of these. Again these >would cost about $3,500 but require no maintenance. When I rebuilt Island Eagle (2003), I put in 7 Lifeline 8D AGM batteries. All but one of them are now gone. The two engine starting batteries lasted 2 years. The house bank (two sets of 24 volts) lasted 4 years. I was not impressed. And before you blame the chargers, these were both on good, modern 3-stage chargers. I would not put in Lifelines again. For the starting bank I switched to some no-name Chinese AGM 8Ds, and they have been just fine so far. For the house bank, I switched to L16 AGM batteries, and these have been awesome. They are much lighter than the 8Ds, but really pack the power (1080 Amp Hours at the 10 hour rate). The price I got from my local battery shop was excellent. I have a bank of 12 of these in series/parallel to get 24 volts at 3240 AH. Here's a link to the specs: http://www.discover-energy.com/files/EV216A.pdf No connection, etc. Scott Welch FirstClass Product Manager www.firstclass.com Those who make no mistakes rarely make anything.

MR

Mark Richter

Tue, Jan 29, 2008 10:25 PM

<<I found that wet cell golf cart batteries are the cheapest to buy. They
were
around $150 (less boat show price 0f 15%) and were about 200 amp hours. With
my ten batteries I would have about 1000 amp hours for $1,350. >>

Don,
Shop around a bit more. A battery wholesaler or golf-cart dealer in your
area should be selling these flooded golf-cart batteries for about $55 to
$80, depending on brand and quality. The Costco and Sam's club stores carry
the lesser brands for about $55. Trojan T-105's will run nearer $80.

Mark Richter, m/v Winnie the Pooh, Ortona, FL

<<I found that wet cell golf cart batteries are the cheapest to buy. They were around $150 (less boat show price 0f 15%) and were about 200 amp hours. With my ten batteries I would have about 1000 amp hours for $1,350. >> Don, Shop around a bit more. A battery wholesaler or golf-cart dealer in your area should be selling these flooded golf-cart batteries for about $55 to $80, depending on brand and quality. The Costco and Sam's club stores carry the lesser brands for about $55. Trojan T-105's will run nearer $80. Mark Richter, m/v Winnie the Pooh, Ortona, FL

SH

Scott H.E. Welch

Wed, Jan 30, 2008 1:14 AM

"Scott H.E. Welch" scott@firstclass.com writes:

For the house bank, I switched to L16 AGM batteries, and these have been
awesome. They are much lighter than the 8Ds, but really pack the power (1080
Amp Hours at the 10 hour rate). The price I got from my local battery shop
was excellent. I have a bank of 12 of these in series/parallel to get 24
volts at 3240 AH.

Here's a link to the specs: http://www.discover-energy.com/files/EV216A.pdf

Well, looking at this again, I see that I made a mistake. The spec I posted
was for the 2 volt L16 cells. I put in 6 volt L16s, here is the PDF:
http://www.discover-energy.com/files/EVL16A-A.pdf

These are rated at 390 AH, giving me 1170 AH at 24 volts. I knew that 3240
was not right. By the way, when I put mine in the 2 volt cells were not
available, but if I were doing it today for sure I'd put in 12 of the 2 volt
L16s in series. It's much better than running three 6 volt cells in parallel.

Scott Welch
FirstClass Product Manager
www.firstclass.com

Those who make no mistakes rarely make anything.

"Scott H.E. Welch" <scott@firstclass.com> writes: >For the house bank, I switched to L16 AGM batteries, and these have been >awesome. They are much lighter than the 8Ds, but really pack the power (1080 >Amp Hours at the 10 hour rate). The price I got from my local battery shop >was excellent. I have a bank of 12 of these in series/parallel to get 24 >volts at 3240 AH. > >Here's a link to the specs: http://www.discover-energy.com/files/EV216A.pdf Well, looking at this again, I see that I made a mistake. The spec I posted was for the 2 volt L16 cells. I put in 6 volt L16s, here is the PDF: http://www.discover-energy.com/files/EVL16A-A.pdf These are rated at 390 AH, giving me 1170 AH at 24 volts. I knew that 3240 was not right. By the way, when I put mine in the 2 volt cells were not available, but if I were doing it today for sure I'd put in 12 of the 2 volt L16s in series. It's much better than running three 6 volt cells in parallel. Scott Welch FirstClass Product Manager www.firstclass.com Those who make no mistakes rarely make anything.

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