Re: Synergy / iLotus M12M Firmware
Hi Razvan,
I have not heard of new firmware for the Motorola M12 or iLotus M12M.
One suggestion is to look at the SSR6T from Synergy. I heard it was a
size, electrical, and software compatible board and likely includes
software fixes for GPS WNRO issues. Please verify with them.
More info here:
https://synergy-gps.com/products/gps/timing-boards-modules/
https://synergy-gps.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/EOL-M12M-GPS-receiver-2021.pdf
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/motorola-oncore-data-as-applied-in-z3801a/
https://synergy-gps.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/SSR-VP_UT-Single-Board-Datasheet-062922.pdf
Depending on your level of microcontroller and programming experience it
is also possible to make a transparent 1024 week fix yourself, even
within an opaque embedded instrument like a "IP clock server". This was
one of the factors that drove the SSR-6T market. A similar approach is
used by heoldesign.com for legacy Trimble Lassen receivers.
/tvb
On 3/10/2023 11:14 AM, Razvan Popescu [YO8RYR] wrote:
Hello Tom,
This module is embedded in a "IP Clock Server" that does NTP and PTP
(IEEE 1588 v2).
The unit came without the GPS timing module option and I opened it and I
saw it has space for 3 different modules inside and I had this M12M on
hand I put it in so I can use it for sync and also 10MHz reference in my
lab. You can only install one module inside, somehow they overlap and
have different connectors for each type of GPS module.
I am afraid that next year this box will not work due to GPS week
rollover. I searched for quite some time on the net and it seems to be
no firmware available for them so I said to ask on the list.
I ordered a different module yesterday that should also fit in another
slot and the new one has a U-Blox which should be fine with GPS week
rollover.
Do you know how can I dump the firmware and flash a new one on the M12M?
Regards,
Razvan
On 3/9/2023 2:35 AM, Razvan Popescu [YO8RYR] via time-nuts wrote:
Hello,
I am trying to get the latest firmware for the M12M module IL-GPS-0030-B
but I cannot find it anywhere.
I am interested to have this module updated for the GPS Week Rollover
mainly. From what I read this is based on the compiled firmware date.
The newer the compilation date the more years the module will work.
For example the modules with firmware date 2005 to 2015 will have a week
rollover on 17 August 2024. The modules with firmware 2016 will have
rollover week August 17, 2035 and the ones with 2017 firmware will have
August 17, 2036.
The module I have it is from 2006 so I expect next year to have issues.
Best regards,
Razvan
Hello Tom,
I don't use the Motorola format so I can replace it with any GPS module.
What I wanted was to get a newer firmware with a "Dynamic Base Year".
According to the document in the link below for the GPS Week Rollover
for M12M made by iLotus, they changed how the firmware works in 2016.
What I want is not to trash these modules and prolong their life. Too
much electronic garbage and not because of hardware faults but
software/firmware issues.
https://synergy-gps.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/M12M-2019-roll-over-and-base-dates-C.pdf
Regards,
Razvan
On 17/03/2023 09:18, Tom Van Baak via time-nuts wrote:
Hi Razvan,
I have not heard of new firmware for the Motorola M12 or iLotus M12M.
One suggestion is to look at the SSR6T from Synergy. I heard it was a
size, electrical, and software compatible board and likely includes
software fixes for GPS WNRO issues. Please verify with them.
More info here:
https://synergy-gps.com/products/gps/timing-boards-modules/
https://synergy-gps.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/EOL-M12M-GPS-receiver-2021.pdf
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/motorola-oncore-data-as-applied-in-z3801a/
https://synergy-gps.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/SSR-VP_UT-Single-Board-Datasheet-062922.pdf
Depending on your level of microcontroller and programming experience it
is also possible to make a transparent 1024 week fix yourself, even
within an opaque embedded instrument like a "IP clock server". This was
one of the factors that drove the SSR-6T market. A similar approach is
used by heoldesign.com for legacy Trimble Lassen receivers.
/tvb
On 3/10/2023 11:14 AM, Razvan Popescu [YO8RYR] wrote:
Hello Tom,
This module is embedded in a "IP Clock Server" that does NTP and PTP
(IEEE 1588 v2).The unit came without the GPS timing module option and I opened it and I
saw it has space for 3 different modules inside and I had this M12M on
hand I put it in so I can use it for sync and also 10MHz reference in my
lab. You can only install one module inside, somehow they overlap and
have different connectors for each type of GPS module.I am afraid that next year this box will not work due to GPS week
rollover. I searched for quite some time on the net and it seems to be
no firmware available for them so I said to ask on the list.I ordered a different module yesterday that should also fit in another
slot and the new one has a U-Blox which should be fine with GPS week
rollover.Do you know how can I dump the firmware and flash a new one on the M12M?
Regards,
Razvan
On 3/9/2023 2:35 AM, Razvan Popescu [YO8RYR] via time-nuts wrote:
Hello,
I am trying to get the latest firmware for the M12M module IL-GPS-0030-B
but I cannot find it anywhere.I am interested to have this module updated for the GPS Week Rollover
mainly. From what I read this is based on the compiled firmware date.
The newer the compilation date the more years the module will work.For example the modules with firmware date 2005 to 2015 will have a week
rollover on 17 August 2024. The modules with firmware 2016 will have
rollover week August 17, 2035 and the ones with 2017 firmware will have
August 17, 2036.The module I have it is from 2006 so I expect next year to have issues.
Best regards,
Razvan
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Hi
I think you will find that many outfits went over to some sort of “future proof” setup
in the last 10 years.
Getting firmware updates for any module after a decade or two is difficult for an
individual. Even as an OEM with all the “official” ways to do it, it can be difficult.
The same is true of updates for a variety of GPS based gear, modules are not at
all unique in this regard.
To a degree changes in the silicon are at the root of a lot of this. They change
the chip / chips in one way or another. Now the firmware for the “old” gear is unique
to that generation. They simply stop the updates rather than put (the significant)
money into the process.
Bob
On Mar 20, 2023, at 6:56 AM, Razvan Popescu [YO8RYR] via time-nuts time-nuts@lists.febo.com wrote:
Hello Tom,
I don't use the Motorola format so I can replace it with any GPS module.
What I wanted was to get a newer firmware with a "Dynamic Base Year".
According to the document in the link below for the GPS Week Rollover
for M12M made by iLotus, they changed how the firmware works in 2016.
What I want is not to trash these modules and prolong their life. Too
much electronic garbage and not because of hardware faults but
software/firmware issues.
https://synergy-gps.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/M12M-2019-roll-over-and-base-dates-C.pdf
Regards,
Razvan
On 17/03/2023 09:18, Tom Van Baak via time-nuts wrote:
Hi Razvan,
I have not heard of new firmware for the Motorola M12 or iLotus M12M.
One suggestion is to look at the SSR6T from Synergy. I heard it was a
size, electrical, and software compatible board and likely includes
software fixes for GPS WNRO issues. Please verify with them.
More info here:
https://synergy-gps.com/products/gps/timing-boards-modules/
https://synergy-gps.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/EOL-M12M-GPS-receiver-2021.pdf
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/motorola-oncore-data-as-applied-in-z3801a/
https://synergy-gps.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/SSR-VP_UT-Single-Board-Datasheet-062922.pdf
Depending on your level of microcontroller and programming experience it
is also possible to make a transparent 1024 week fix yourself, even
within an opaque embedded instrument like a "IP clock server". This was
one of the factors that drove the SSR-6T market. A similar approach is
used by heoldesign.com for legacy Trimble Lassen receivers.
/tvb
On 3/10/2023 11:14 AM, Razvan Popescu [YO8RYR] wrote:
Hello Tom,
This module is embedded in a "IP Clock Server" that does NTP and PTP
(IEEE 1588 v2).
The unit came without the GPS timing module option and I opened it and I
saw it has space for 3 different modules inside and I had this M12M on
hand I put it in so I can use it for sync and also 10MHz reference in my
lab. You can only install one module inside, somehow they overlap and
have different connectors for each type of GPS module.
I am afraid that next year this box will not work due to GPS week
rollover. I searched for quite some time on the net and it seems to be
no firmware available for them so I said to ask on the list.
I ordered a different module yesterday that should also fit in another
slot and the new one has a U-Blox which should be fine with GPS week
rollover.
Do you know how can I dump the firmware and flash a new one on the M12M?
Regards,
Razvan
On 3/9/2023 2:35 AM, Razvan Popescu [YO8RYR] via time-nuts wrote:
Hello,
I am trying to get the latest firmware for the M12M module IL-GPS-0030-B
but I cannot find it anywhere.
I am interested to have this module updated for the GPS Week Rollover
mainly. From what I read this is based on the compiled firmware date.
The newer the compilation date the more years the module will work.
For example the modules with firmware date 2005 to 2015 will have a week
rollover on 17 August 2024. The modules with firmware 2016 will have
rollover week August 17, 2035 and the ones with 2017 firmware will have
August 17, 2036.
The module I have it is from 2006 so I expect next year to have issues.
Best regards,
Razvan
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com
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Hello Bob,
You are right, it is difficult to get updates but if the firmware is
designed correctly from start there should be no issues and making small
adjustments to correct something like week rollover would not be much
investment for a big company. I saw firmware engineers fixing problems
in less than 2 minutes and creating a new file.
In the end if support is not OK they will loose in the long run.
I can tell what I saw is happening with vendors that offer bad support,
they are excluded from future contracts and customers don't even
consider their products anymore once they are on the "list".
Maybe new chips are needed for navigation applications but for 1PPS and
time/date I would say 20 year old modules should be fine.
73!
Razvan
On 20/03/2023 17:22, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
I think you will find that many outfits went over to some sort of “future proof” setup
in the last 10 years.
Getting firmware updates for any module after a decade or two is difficult for an
individual. Even as an OEM with all the “official” ways to do it, it can be difficult.
The same is true of updates for a variety of GPS based gear, modules are not at
all unique in this regard.
To a degree changes in the silicon are at the root of a lot of this. They change
the chip / chips in one way or another. Now the firmware for the “old” gear is unique
to that generation. They simply stop the updates rather than put (the significant)
money into the process.
Bob
Hi
If you sit down with the folks who actually do this, things change a lot when there is
a silicon change. Going from one toolset to a completely different one is only a minor
part of it.
The customer base that matters to all the module outfits are the large OEM’s. Many
of them are reluctant to even engage with individual users. Their customer service
is focused on the “thousand a month” folks.
Bob
On Mar 21, 2023, at 3:31 PM, Razvan Popescu [YO8RYR] yo8ryr@gmx.net wrote:
Hello Bob,
You are right, it is difficult to get updates but if the firmware is
designed correctly from start there should be no issues and making small
adjustments to correct something like week rollover would not be much
investment for a big company. I saw firmware engineers fixing problems
in less than 2 minutes and creating a new file.
In the end if support is not OK they will loose in the long run.
I can tell what I saw is happening with vendors that offer bad support,
they are excluded from future contracts and customers don't even
consider their products anymore once they are on the "list".
Maybe new chips are needed for navigation applications but for 1PPS and
time/date I would say 20 year old modules should be fine.
73!
Razvan
On 20/03/2023 17:22, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
I think you will find that many outfits went over to some sort of “future proof” setup
in the last 10 years.
Getting firmware updates for any module after a decade or two is difficult for an
individual. Even as an OEM with all the “official” ways to do it, it can be difficult.
The same is true of updates for a variety of GPS based gear, modules are not at
all unique in this regard.
To a degree changes in the silicon are at the root of a lot of this. They change
the chip / chips in one way or another. Now the firmware for the “old” gear is unique
to that generation. They simply stop the updates rather than put (the significant)
money into the process.
Bob
If anybody have /any/ firmware files for either the UT+ or the M12
receivers, I would very much like to receive a copy to feed my
disassembly/reverse-engineering hobby.
--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
Hi,
On 2023-03-21 23:24, Poul-Henning Kamp via time-nuts wrote:
If anybody have /any/ firmware files for either the UT+ or the M12
receivers, I would very much like to receive a copy to feed my
disassembly/reverse-engineering hobby.
Speaking of which, there used to be datasheets online for the chips
being used, but later got pulled. It would be good if they could be
gathered so that such reverse-engineering hobbies (bitten too) can progress.
I have checked every now and then, and do not seem to find any on our
usual waterholes for documentations.
Cheers,
Magnus
There is NOR 8Mbit TSOP flash chip on the M12M module that I have and in
case I cannot find a way to backup the firmware via software maybe I
will desolder the chip and read it in my programmer.
Problem is I don't have much time for hobbies right now so I am not sure
when this will happen.
On 22/03/2023 17:14, Magnus Danielson via time-nuts wrote:
Hi,
On 2023-03-21 23:24, Poul-Henning Kamp via time-nuts wrote:
If anybody have /any/ firmware files for either the UT+ or the M12
receivers, I would very much like to receive a copy to feed my
disassembly/reverse-engineering hobby.
Speaking of which, there used to be datasheets online for the chips
being used, but later got pulled. It would be good if they could be
gathered so that such reverse-engineering hobbies (bitten too) can
progress.
I have checked every now and then, and do not seem to find any on our
usual waterholes for documentations.
Cheers,
Magnus
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To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave@lists.febo.com