VNA design
On 6/2/2014 12:41 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote:
Hi:
I started with the HP 8410 and added an external computer.
Since it can be used manually I think it's an excellent way to learn
about VNAs.
http://www.prc68.com/I/MWTE.shtml#NA
For my last 8 years at Agilent before retiring in March, I
was doing advanced R&D on network analyzers. The newer
guys coming up didn't have an intuitive understanding of
network analyzer architectures like I did. I
started using the 8410 back in 1973 before I even worked
for HP. Because of the modular design, it was like a
teaching tool that forced you to understand what was
going on. When I mentored the young guys, I would
explain to them a lot of principles based on the 8410.
Modern network analyzers are too "automatic".
The 8410 puts modern VNA's into perspective. BTW, I used
to sit next to Dick Lee, who was a member of the 8410
design team in 1963 at the dawn of the golden age of
microwave instruments based on YIG tuned oscillators
and step recovery diode samplers.
As you noted, the architecture was built around the YIG tuned oscillator
and certain things were done that way they were because of that.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
Although I used to work for one of the competitor, I still do have a
complete working 8410, Rick is right, it is a very nice teaching tool
73
KJ6UHN
On 6/2/2014 2:36 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:
On 6/2/2014 12:41 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote:
Hi:
I started with the HP 8410 and added an external computer.
Since it can be used manually I think it's an excellent way to learn
about VNAs.
http://www.prc68.com/I/MWTE.shtml#NA
For my last 8 years at Agilent before retiring in March, I
was doing advanced R&D on network analyzers. The newer
guys coming up didn't have an intuitive understanding of
network analyzer architectures like I did. I
started using the 8410 back in 1973 before I even worked
for HP. Because of the modular design, it was like a
teaching tool that forced you to understand what was
going on. When I mentored the young guys, I would
explain to them a lot of principles based on the 8410.
Modern network analyzers are too "automatic".
The 8410 puts modern VNA's into perspective. BTW, I used
to sit next to Dick Lee, who was a member of the 8410
design team in 1963 at the dawn of the golden age of
microwave instruments based on YIG tuned oscillators
and step recovery diode samplers.
As you noted, the architecture was built around the YIG tuned
oscillator and certain things were done that way they were because of
that.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Hi,
I have an HP 8412B and an HP 8413A, which go with the HP 8410, for $ 30.00
( maybe less) each plus actual shipping.
They look good but I have no way to test then since I have no mainframe.
Contact offline if interested. I can email pictures.
They will be at the Huntsville Hamfest later this summer.
Bill Reed reedbn@otelco.net
-----Original Message-----
From: Alexander Pummer
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2014 5:18 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] VNA design
Although I used to work for one of the competitor, I still do have a
complete working 8410, Rick is right, it is a very nice teaching tool
73
KJ6UHN
On 6/2/2014 2:36 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:
On 6/2/2014 12:41 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote:
Hi:
I started with the HP 8410 and added an external computer.
Since it can be used manually I think it's an excellent way to learn
about VNAs.
http://www.prc68.com/I/MWTE.shtml#NA
For my last 8 years at Agilent before retiring in March, I
was doing advanced R&D on network analyzers. The newer
guys coming up didn't have an intuitive understanding of
network analyzer architectures like I did. I
started using the 8410 back in 1973 before I even worked
for HP. Because of the modular design, it was like a
teaching tool that forced you to understand what was
going on. When I mentored the young guys, I would
explain to them a lot of principles based on the 8410.
Modern network analyzers are too "automatic".
The 8410 puts modern VNA's into perspective. BTW, I used
to sit next to Dick Lee, who was a member of the 8410
design team in 1963 at the dawn of the golden age of
microwave instruments based on YIG tuned oscillators
and step recovery diode samplers.
As you noted, the architecture was built around the YIG tuned oscillator
and certain things were done that way they were because of that.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
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and follow the instructions there.
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The 8410 is what I started on. Still have the hp 85 automation manuals program listings and tapes. And the hp ad converter used to convert plotter output lines to GPIB readable data
the 8410 allowed one to really UNDERSTAND the network analysis process at a very basic level. If you can find a system it is a excellent platform to learn on
That being said the most valuable part of any network analyzer are the calibration and verification kits
Where are the software options for the 8753 coming from. Agilent will not even talk about a VNA that's older than the PNA series
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 2, 2014, at 6:18 PM, Alexander Pummer alexpcs@ieee.org wrote:
Although I used to work for one of the competitor, I still do have a complete working 8410, Rick is right, it is a very nice teaching tool
73
KJ6UHN
On 6/2/2014 2:36 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:
On 6/2/2014 12:41 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote:
Hi:
I started with the HP 8410 and added an external computer.
Since it can be used manually I think it's an excellent way to learn
about VNAs.
http://www.prc68.com/I/MWTE.shtml#NA
For my last 8 years at Agilent before retiring in March, I
was doing advanced R&D on network analyzers. The newer
guys coming up didn't have an intuitive understanding of
network analyzer architectures like I did. I
started using the 8410 back in 1973 before I even worked
for HP. Because of the modular design, it was like a
teaching tool that forced you to understand what was
going on. When I mentored the young guys, I would
explain to them a lot of principles based on the 8410.
Modern network analyzers are too "automatic".
The 8410 puts modern VNA's into perspective. BTW, I used
to sit next to Dick Lee, who was a member of the 8410
design team in 1963 at the dawn of the golden age of
microwave instruments based on YIG tuned oscillators
and step recovery diode samplers.
As you noted, the architecture was built around the YIG tuned oscillator and certain things were done that way they were because of that.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
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On 3 June 2014 16:54, Scott McGrath scmcgrath@gmail.com wrote:
Where are the software options for the 8753 coming from. Agilent will not even talk about a VNA that's older than the PNA series
This has been discussed on the HP/Agilent mailing list. Basically a
couple of people that work at Agilent, one of whom is
"caesarv@email.com" (yes email, not gmail), will give out options for
8753 for non-commercial use. Just send him your S/N. I know he also
did likewise for an older 8720 instrument (I think 8720C).
Although he can, he will NOT do it for PNAs. That is one advantage of
getting a used 8753/8720 over a used PNA!
Agilent offered to repair my 8720D a couple of years ago, and managed
to give me a quote via email as it was abundantly obvious what the
problem was - a damaged thread on a test port connector. The only
problem was they wanted to change the whole coupler, so it was going
to cost the US equivalent of around $5000. A mate of mine sorted out
the nick on the thread with a needle file!!!
Dave
Boy this is not time-nuts and I had been deleting the thread. No problem
with the thread. Just I have HP VNAs. Yes including what caught my eye the
8410 that Scott spoke of and its still operational. Heavy as heck like real
equipment should be.
I am curious I sort of thought the 8410 was pre micro processor and yet
some how the HP85 hooked up to it??
I have the 8757 also so. Great comment by Dave on the fact that someone
will give out some of the old options. Now I have to figure out what on
earth that might actually mean.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 12:57 PM, Dr. David Kirkby drkirkby@gmail.com
wrote:
On 3 June 2014 16:54, Scott McGrath scmcgrath@gmail.com wrote:
Where are the software options for the 8753 coming from. Agilent will
not even talk about a VNA that's older than the PNA series
This has been discussed on the HP/Agilent mailing list. Basically a
couple of people that work at Agilent, one of whom is
"caesarv@email.com" (yes email, not gmail), will give out options for
8753 for non-commercial use. Just send him your S/N. I know he also
did likewise for an older 8720 instrument (I think 8720C).
Although he can, he will NOT do it for PNAs. That is one advantage of
getting a used 8753/8720 over a used PNA!
Agilent offered to repair my 8720D a couple of years ago, and managed
to give me a quote via email as it was abundantly obvious what the
problem was - a damaged thread on a test port connector. The only
problem was they wanted to change the whole coupler, so it was going
to cost the US equivalent of around $5000. A mate of mine sorted out
the nick on the thread with a needle file!!!
Dave
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
On 3 June 2014 19:22, paul swed paulswedb@gmail.com wrote:
Great comment by Dave on the fact that someone
will give out some of the old options. Now I have to figure out what on
earth that might actually mean.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
There are a few options for those VNAs. These are basically generic,
but check your manual for more details.
-
Option 006, on an 8753B or later, allows the instrument to work to
6 GHz. It basically lets the receiver tune to 6 GHz, but the internal
source still only goes to 3 GHz. So you need an S-parameter test set
with a doubler to get to 6 GHz. But there is no harm in having the
option, irrespective of whether you have a 6 GHz test set. -
Option 010 is the time domain. It converts the frequency domain
data to the time domain via an inverse FFT. Then you can put a "gate"
around some stuff in the time domain and transform that back to the
frequency domain.
A nice option to have, and very expensive on new instruments.
-
Option 002 allow the instrument to work on harmonics. I'm not sure
how useful that actually is - I think it was mainly for internal use
at HP, and is not of great use, but if you can get the option, you
might as well. -
Old 8720 series instruments had a tuning step of 100 kHz. There is
an option to make that 1 Hz. How the **** HP got away with selling a
VNA where the step size was 100 kHz I will never know, but they did.
There are other options for the instruments - the most time-nut
related is the high stability oscillator. That is option 1D5 on my
instrument (8720D). I don't know how easy it is to add the hardware to
an 8753 - I suspect it is just one of the standard 10811A or similar
oscillators. If you do that, it would seem sensible to get the
instrument to report it has the option, even though it wont actually
effect the performance. It would affect the resale value, and would
mean Agilent would calibrate it properly if sent it for cal.
When my 8720D was sent it for calibration, the accuracy of both the
standard and the high stability oscillator was checked. Both were in
spec. I suspect they would not check the high stability one unless the
instrument reported it had that option fitted.
BTW, Agilent will still calibrate 8753s, and when I got my 8720D done,
it was not that expensive. I guess it is all relative, but the 8720D
is quite an expensive instrument, and I use it professionally, so it
is worth getting calibrated - unlike 99% of the other stuff I have.
Dave
My bad the 8757 is only a scalar not a vna like the 8410 and 8505. Thought
I went astray and had to go look after you mentioned the options.
Regards
Paul.
WB8TSL
On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 3:32 PM, Dr. David Kirkby drkirkby@gmail.com wrote:
On 3 June 2014 19:22, paul swed paulswedb@gmail.com wrote:
Great comment by Dave on the fact that someone
will give out some of the old options. Now I have to figure out what on
earth that might actually mean.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
There are a few options for those VNAs. These are basically generic,
but check your manual for more details.
-
Option 006, on an 8753B or later, allows the instrument to work to
6 GHz. It basically lets the receiver tune to 6 GHz, but the internal
source still only goes to 3 GHz. So you need an S-parameter test set
with a doubler to get to 6 GHz. But there is no harm in having the
option, irrespective of whether you have a 6 GHz test set. -
Option 010 is the time domain. It converts the frequency domain
data to the time domain via an inverse FFT. Then you can put a "gate"
around some stuff in the time domain and transform that back to the
frequency domain.
A nice option to have, and very expensive on new instruments.
-
Option 002 allow the instrument to work on harmonics. I'm not sure
how useful that actually is - I think it was mainly for internal use
at HP, and is not of great use, but if you can get the option, you
might as well. -
Old 8720 series instruments had a tuning step of 100 kHz. There is
an option to make that 1 Hz. How the **** HP got away with selling a
VNA where the step size was 100 kHz I will never know, but they did.
There are other options for the instruments - the most time-nut
related is the high stability oscillator. That is option 1D5 on my
instrument (8720D). I don't know how easy it is to add the hardware to
an 8753 - I suspect it is just one of the standard 10811A or similar
oscillators. If you do that, it would seem sensible to get the
instrument to report it has the option, even though it wont actually
effect the performance. It would affect the resale value, and would
mean Agilent would calibrate it properly if sent it for cal.
When my 8720D was sent it for calibration, the accuracy of both the
standard and the high stability oscillator was checked. Both were in
spec. I suspect they would not check the high stability one unless the
instrument reported it had that option fitted.
BTW, Agilent will still calibrate 8753s, and when I got my 8720D done,
it was not that expensive. I guess it is all relative, but the 8720D
is quite an expensive instrument, and I use it professionally, so it
is worth getting calibrated - unlike 99% of the other stuff I have.
Dave
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
The way the 8410 was automated HP built an add on DAC module to convert the plotter outputs to digital form and used an 8350 sweeper to replace the BWO sweepers commonly used by 8410 systems and a relay controller to do the test set switching
They called this rig the 'Automatic Network Analyzer'
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 3, 2014, at 2:22 PM, paul swed paulswedb@gmail.com wrote:
Boy this is not time-nuts and I had been deleting the thread. No problem
with the thread. Just I have HP VNAs. Yes including what caught my eye the
8410 that Scott spoke of and its still operational. Heavy as heck like real
equipment should be.
I am curious I sort of thought the 8410 was pre micro processor and yet
some how the HP85 hooked up to it??
I have the 8757 also so. Great comment by Dave on the fact that someone
will give out some of the old options. Now I have to figure out what on
earth that might actually mean.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 12:57 PM, Dr. David Kirkby drkirkby@gmail.com
wrote:
On 3 June 2014 16:54, Scott McGrath scmcgrath@gmail.com wrote:
Where are the software options for the 8753 coming from. Agilent will
not even talk about a VNA that's older than the PNA series
This has been discussed on the HP/Agilent mailing list. Basically a
couple of people that work at Agilent, one of whom is
"caesarv@email.com" (yes email, not gmail), will give out options for
8753 for non-commercial use. Just send him your S/N. I know he also
did likewise for an older 8720 instrument (I think 8720C).
Although he can, he will NOT do it for PNAs. That is one advantage of
getting a used 8753/8720 over a used PNA!
Agilent offered to repair my 8720D a couple of years ago, and managed
to give me a quote via email as it was abundantly obvious what the
problem was - a damaged thread on a test port connector. The only
problem was they wanted to change the whole coupler, so it was going
to cost the US equivalent of around $5000. A mate of mine sorted out
the nick on the thread with a needle file!!!
Dave
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
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and follow the instructions there.
Thanks
On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 7:29 AM, Scott McGrath scmcgrath@gmail.com wrote:
The way the 8410 was automated HP built an add on DAC module to convert
the plotter outputs to digital form and used an 8350 sweeper to replace the
BWO sweepers commonly used by 8410 systems and a relay controller to do the
test set switching
They called this rig the 'Automatic Network Analyzer'
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 3, 2014, at 2:22 PM, paul swed paulswedb@gmail.com wrote:
Boy this is not time-nuts and I had been deleting the thread. No problem
with the thread. Just I have HP VNAs. Yes including what caught my eye
the
8410 that Scott spoke of and its still operational. Heavy as heck like
real
equipment should be.
I am curious I sort of thought the 8410 was pre micro processor and yet
some how the HP85 hooked up to it??
I have the 8757 also so. Great comment by Dave on the fact that someone
will give out some of the old options. Now I have to figure out what on
earth that might actually mean.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 12:57 PM, Dr. David Kirkby drkirkby@gmail.com
wrote:
On 3 June 2014 16:54, Scott McGrath scmcgrath@gmail.com wrote:
Where are the software options for the 8753 coming from. Agilent will
not even talk about a VNA that's older than the PNA series
This has been discussed on the HP/Agilent mailing list. Basically a
couple of people that work at Agilent, one of whom is
"caesarv@email.com" (yes email, not gmail), will give out options for
8753 for non-commercial use. Just send him your S/N. I know he also
did likewise for an older 8720 instrument (I think 8720C).
Although he can, he will NOT do it for PNAs. That is one advantage of
getting a used 8753/8720 over a used PNA!
Agilent offered to repair my 8720D a couple of years ago, and managed
to give me a quote via email as it was abundantly obvious what the
problem was - a damaged thread on a test port connector. The only
problem was they wanted to change the whole coupler, so it was going
to cost the US equivalent of around $5000. A mate of mine sorted out
the nick on the thread with a needle file!!!
Dave
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and follow the instructions there.
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and follow the instructions there.
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