On 11/3/2012 5:32 AM, Sarah White wrote:

There are a number of reasons it can be problematic for an OS to change
the hardware clock twice a year.

Example being that sometimes is if you "dual-boot" more than one version
of windows, both of them will try to adjust the clock.

Historically, more than one machine I've run has had a glitch where the
clock was set forward more than just a single hour adjustment due to
dual-boot or just crash during reboots when summer time was being
set/unset. Plenty can go wrong. It's just not anything I want to worry
about / shouldn't be necessary (mac, linux, bsd, etc. don't have this
flaw because they typically have the hardware clock set to UTC, and use
software settings to display the local time by calculating offset)

...Someone contacted me offlist and pointed out that there is no reason
I can't tell windows that I'm in a timezone that uses UTC (without
summer time / daylight savings time adjustment)

The workaround varies by windows version, but for me it looks basically
like this:

http://inkushi.freeshell.org/Saturday_November_03_2012_555_UTC_Protest.png
http://inkushi.freeshell.org/Saturday_November_03_2012_637_UTC_Workaround.png

Basically, a side effect is that windows is now reporting UTC as being
local time even though that is NOT my desired local clock for display
and other purposes. This was the only workaround I knew for certain
would keep my hardware clock set to UTC.

My emails are now being timestamped with UTC as a result. Shouldn't
confuse me too badly, but this is the most optimal way I could come up
with. I don't want to have to think about the behavior / performance of
my NTP time synchronization twice a year. This is the main reason (for
me) it is an issue.

So maybe I really am a little bit nuts (about time too)
Sarah White

P.S. For windows 7, default tray / notification icon settings: All of
the relevant settings are available by simply clicking the clock in the
corner. Can even add "additional clocks" to display alternate timezones
and name them whatever you like. Unfortunately, most software now
reports the "local" clock wrong, and the only way I seem to be able to
view local time is by using the windows clock / calendar applet in the
corner of the taskbar (tray area) Whatever. For my purposes it was more
important to have the hardware clock not be tampered with twice a year
by the OS

Dear Sarah,

Good morning. I just returned home from a long and difficult customer data center migration. I thought of sharing that I feel the same way as you do regarding your thread. Things should always behave like a Mac or Linux, in which if there is a glitch, the OS responsible party jumps into scene with a solution. Not the way it happens and builds your frustration with Windows.

Food for thought, just an example of someone supporting their OS user base on a similar topic. To err is human, to fix the errors should also be: http://support.apple.com/kb/TA24568?viewlocale=en_US

Cheers,

Edgardo Molina
Dirección IPTEL

www.iptel.net.mx

T : 55 55 55202444
M : 04455 20501854

Piensa en Bits SA de CV

Información anexa:

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On Nov 2, 2012, at 11:32 PM, Sarah White kuzetsa@gmail.com wrote:

Sarah,

I am having a hard time understanding your problem.  Or at least what you see as
a problem.  I am not sure what you are really complaining about here ?  Is it the
daylight change ?  Or is it a dual boot problem which would suggest you do not
have some settings in their rightful place ?

The computer is merely displaying a form of time representation on the screen
(human device).  Internally, it seems to me, the computer's operating system is
merely keeping a count of the passing seconds since reading the actual hardware,
hardwired clock chip upon boot-up.  After the initial boot it no longer reads the
hardware clock chip to my understanding.  If that is the case, it would suggest
that a flag is recorded as to the daylight savings time change either in firmware
or perhaps on the mass storage device that has the operating system.

It is possible that the hardwired clock chip may keep track of the daylight
savings function.  If that is the case, perhaps the way to deal with it is to
write a a small program that will make sure that hardwired chip stays in the NON
daylight mode as part of a boot-up routine.

As for the microsoft reference, it suggests not using a particular registry entry
and if it is there to delete it.  On my computer it is not present in the
registry.  While that only fixes some kind of system unresponsiveness issue, it
does not seem to keep the daylight function from changing.

With all the clock Synching available via the internet, it seems to me your clock
should not be an issue in of itself.  However, I am retired, as such, do not have
a watch and pay little attention to the wall clock.

Bill....WB6BNQ

Sarah White wrote:

On 11/3/2012 8:02 AM, Edgardo Molina wrote:

Microsoft puts out timezone updates too. The difference is, apple's
version of the same doesn't adjust the hardware clock.

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Time#Time_standard

The "localtime" standard is what I'm wanting to get away from.
Unfortunately, on windows there is no way to do this and still display
the local time correctly.

--Sarah

Microsoft also does updates regarding the day daylight savings time changes, similar to that Apple message.

I suspect I'm not following this thread correctly. What I got from the orignal thread is Microsoft will "thunk" the RTC during the switchover. I'm going to make it a point to insure NTP is logging correctly, and then look for a time error at the switch over. (2AM I think.)

-----Original Message-----
From: Edgardo Molina xe1xus@amsat.org
Sender: time-nuts-bounces@febo.com
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 02:02:47
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com
Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] For my whole life timezones have been weird

Dear Sarah,

Good morning. I just returned home from a long and difficult customer data center migration. I thought of sharing that I feel the same way as you do regarding your thread. Things should always behave like a Mac or Linux, in which if there is a glitch, the OS responsible party jumps into scene with a solution. Not the way it happens and builds your frustration with Windows.

Food for thought, just an example of someone supporting their OS user base on a similar topic. To err is human, to fix the errors should also be: http://support.apple.com/kb/TA24568?viewlocale=en_US

Cheers,

Edgardo Molina
Dirección IPTEL

www.iptel.net.mx

T : 55 55 55202444
M : 04455 20501854

Piensa en Bits SA de CV

Información anexa:

CONFIDENCIALIDAD DE INFORMACION

Este mensaje tiene carácter confidencial. Si usted no es el destinarario de este mensaje, le suplicamos se lo notifique al remitente mediante un correo electrónico y que borre el presente mensaje y sus anexos de su computadora sin retener una copia de los mismos. Queda estrictamente prohibido copiar este mensaje o hacer usode el para cualquier propósito o divulgar su en forma parcial o total su contenido. Gracias.

NON-DISCLOSURE OF INFORMATION

This email is strictly confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient please immediately advise the sender by replying to this e-mail and then deleting the message and its attachments from your computer without keeping a copy. It is strictly forbidden to copy it or use it for any purpose or disclose its contents to any third party. Thank you.

On Nov 2, 2012, at 11:32 PM, Sarah White kuzetsa@gmail.com wrote:

time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

On 11/3/2012 8:26 AM, WB6BNQ wrote:

----begin reply 1----

@ Bill / WB6BNQ wb6bnq@cox.net

The hardware chip does not do any such "tracking of the daylight savings
time"

Here is a reference better explaining the problem:

http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/mswish/ut-rtc.html

----begin reply 2----

On 11/3/2012 8:38 AM, lists@lazygranch.com wrote:> Microsoft also does
updates regarding the day daylight savings time changes, similar to that
Apple message.

orignal thread is Microsoft will "thunk" the RTC during the switchover.
I'm going to make it a point to insure NTP is logging correctly, and
then look for a time error at the switch over. (2AM I think.)

@ lists@lazygranch.com

Correct. This is the primary concern. Tweaking the clock twice a year to
match up with local time is not desired.

Seeing as I'm in the process of installing a hardware refclock (trimble
thunderbolt connected via serial port) for my NTP, it is highly
problematic and potentially error-prone for microsoft's OS to touch the
bios hardware clock AT ALL.

I'm entertaining the notion of writing a kernel-mode hardware timestamp
/ PPSAPI driver to pull the signal off the 1 PPS port on the tbolt one
way or another.

I plan to do this on windows. This is something I want to attempt even
though the NT kernel doesn't have the best reputation for realtime
hardware / interrupt handling. Plan is to put in a non-zero amount of
work, up to and including steps where I go through the driver signing
run-around with microsoft to actually have it fully recognized by the OS
without modification. (unless budget issues are a limiting factor)

... Possibly, this project could even using a board which physically
goes on in a PCI express bus slot in order to do hardware timestamping.

On 11/3/2012 9:18 AM, David J Taylor wrote:

Thanks so much David...

Really. Thanks. I feel alot better now.

Regardless of documented issues on:
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/mswish/ut-rtc.html

(quote) The numerous past malfunctions of Microsoft operating systems
caused by keeping local time in the RTC and trying to cleverly perform
the RTC adjustment semi-automatically have been repeatedly the subject
of concerned public discussion: RISKS 16.54.1 RISKS 18.96.3 RISKS
19.11.16, RISKS 19.12.14 RISKS 19.43.13, RISKS 19.43.14, RISKS
22.34.3... (multiple links)

Not sure what timezone you're in...

... So I don't know which day your summer time ends this year. I'd love
to see the your loopstats file for as many of your windows boxes as
possible (with refclock, or without. Either is fine.) for the day of the
DST update this fall (and maybe any other loopstats data from when the
realtime clock got updated due to summer time / DST updates)

According to: http://www.satsignal.eu/mrtg/daily_ntp.html
(section: Hardware and OS configuration)

I'm assuming the relevant list is:

feenix, stamsund, bacchus, narvik, alta, molde, ystad, puffin, and any
other NT-5.x / NT 6.x based kernel (windows machines) I missed. Wow
that's a wonderfully diverse list :)

I actually thought about it a bit, and in hindsight I'm realizing that
internally, NTP uses a synthetic timebase anyway. Perhaps I was being
paranoid after all.

Thanks for the reply,
Sarah White

P.S. Your site has always had great documentation about NTP
configurations with a GPS-type reflock since I first saw it a couple
years ago. I've found it very useful.

On 11/3/2012 11:31 AM, David J Taylor wrote:

Great, thanks for the loopstats.

For the included loopstats, I believe "Alta" was among the ones on which
you were running windows 7 + NTP... Would you mind confirming which
setting you have for your timezone? (since I'm reasonably certain I know
what the timezone menus would look like)

http://inkushi.freeshell.org/bst.png
http://inkushi.freeshell.org/utc.png

Windows has more than one entry for most UTC offsets (DST schedule
varies by hemisphere, country, some don't have summer time at all, etc.)
... so the timezone I personally have selected is the UTC option without
a summer time adjustment (never set to UTC+01 / BST)

... Also, curious what you mean when you say you have "wall clock" time
displayed (UTC internally) ... ?

--Sarah

On 11/03/2012 05:05 AM, Sarah White wrote:

Just in case it isn't perfectly clear from the other replies, the
hardware RTC is not used for timekeeping while the system is running.
There are a number of other timers in your typical PC which are used for
actual operational purposes, e.g. HPET and TSC. These tick fast enough
(>10MHz) that the OS kernel can "discipline" them in software by
altering the number of ticks considered to comprise a second. As far as
I know none have a voltage-controlled oscillator but that would
certainly be interesting :-)

The RTC's current purpose is to keep time while the system is off, as it
can run for many years from a lithium coin cell, and to wake the system
at a scheduled time if desired. Adjusting the RTC will have no impact
whatsoever on the running system clock(s) and, as pointed out elsewhere,
internally even Windows keeps time in UTC. That said, I'm all for
storing UTC in the RTC for more practical reasons, e.g. dual-boot
compatibility and avoiding shenanigans if the power is cut during the
changeover window. Maybe someday they will be sufficiently motivated to
cut their ties to the past.

-- m. tharp

On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 10:32 PM, Sarah White kuzetsa@gmail.com wrote:

I always wonder why people continue to use MS Windows.  Perhaps thheir
employers force them to.  But other than that why?

I went to a  meetig once where Bill Gate talked about the "new" OS called
"MS-DOS"  At that time I already had a reasonable education in computer
science and was working the systems software for multi-user systems and
networking.    What absolutly amazzed me was the Gates said his plan was to
make DOS more and more "nix-like" over the years.  Then he went on to say
what thatment and it was clear he did NOT know the difference between an
operating system and a shell.  He absolutely didn't.

That is the root cause of all Window's problems.  The company was run be a
"chief software architect" who technically very ignorant and lacked any
formal education in the subject.  Windows still suffers because it tries to
maintain backwards compatabilty

You have to remember that in 1980 we have computers that would allow 100
people to simultainiously log in and do work from 100 different termmiansl.
We have the Internet (called arpanet back then.  We had email and UNIX was
alive and well.  We even had mice and track balls This was not the "dark
ages" the only real difference was the price of hardware.  And in this age
gates did NOT know the difference between an OS and a command shell and he
was running Microsoft.

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

On 11/3/2012 3:12 PM, David J Taylor wrote:

Ah. Ok, cool. I guess the "synthetic timebase" used by NTP is probably
doing what it was meant to do (ignore inconsistency in the RTC under
various circumstances)

By the way, I suspect that you didn't know that morocco (casablanca) has
observed a "summer time" adjustment since the year 2008. I sure didn't.

http://www.timeanddate.com/news/time/morocco-dst-2012.html

Apparently there is now even a "special case" during the muslim month of
ramadan:

-(quote: timeanddate.com)-
According to the new law, the DST period will be interrupted during the
Muslim month of Ramadan (July 20 – August 20, 2012 in the Gregorian
calendar)
-(end quote)-

Earlier I was looking for a UTC timezone to use on my android phone, and
nearly set it to casablaca without fact-checking first... Oops!

For now I suppose that can be one of my clocks set to local time (NY)
since it's a well-known timezone I shouldn't have to worry about too much.

--Sarah

P.S. Seems strange that the only two options for a UTC+0 timezone are
"London, Dublin" or "Casablanca" (neither of which are year-round UTC)
... I'll try to remember to point this out to the cyanogenmod team
(running an aftermarket version of android, cyanogenmod on my phone) so
it can be fixed in the next release.

On 11/3/12 8:50 AM, Chris Albertson wrote:

I don't know that it's "force"... At JPL we have an enormous variety of
desktop OSes, and for the most part, nobody much cares which one you use
as long as you can get your job done.

Perhaps because you have a (expensive to replace) tool that requires IE
for access?
Perhaps because the large installed base means that design tools are
written for Windows first and others later?
Perhaps because of the large installed base it's easier to find folks to
write software for Windows than for other products.
Perhaps because for all its ills, Windows isn't that bad a desktop
environment.  The kind of timekeeping thing we're discussing here is,
when it gets right down to it, not going to affect the vast majority
(99.99%?) of users.

Hardly the "root" of all problems..  Yes, the conflation of kernel and
UI  (most of Windows is really all about UI capabilities: heck it's the
very name of the product).  The kernel of NT was based on the
architecture of VAX/VMS, which was fairly nice.  Real multitasking, real
pre-emption, real process isolation, real dynamic run time binding.
(none of which DOS had)

You can say it suffers from needing backward compatibility.. overall,
they've done a half way decent implementation of this these days (there
were some real clunkers along the way).  But it's also important to
allow people to use their significant investment in old software.  You
may have the best idea in the world and a very cool OS that implements
it, but who's going to pay for recoding all those billions of lines of
software for your new OS?

And assuming that money falls from the sky to pay for it, where are you
going to find all those software people to do the work, at any price?
Sure, I've seen lots of people just dying for the opportunity to
decipher some 20 year old enterprise application and convert it to a new OS.

Well before that actually.  More like late 60s.  TymShare corp, for
instance.  Dartmouth BASIC for another.

ANd note that those timesharing systems provided an environment that
essentially hid the OS (kernel wise) from the user.  You fired up your
ASR33 and were in the BASIC environment from the get go.

This also is the environment that BillG started doing computing work in.
He didn't start sitting at a keypunch cranking out JCL cards to
compile his COBOL or FORTRAN jobs and allocating DASD for the temporary
files.

Don't make the mistake of confusing public statements with background
and knowledge.  For all you know, Gates wanted to deliberately confuse
the two for marketing reasons.

On 11/3/2012 6:32 AM, Sarah White wrote:

The knowledge base article you report suggests a fix which consists in eliminating one entry
of the Windows registry. I checked, and my Windows XP Professional + SP3 does not have
that entry. So probably Microsoft did already issue a fix for that, in one of the many updates
released. I keep my Windows always up-to-date, applying each and every fixes issued by
Microsoft.  Doing this, I have never had problems.

73  Alberto  I2PHD

Hi

Possibly because they run multiple very large / very expensive software packages that are Windows only items.

Bob

On Nov 3, 2012, at 11:50 AM, Chris Albertson albertson.chris@gmail.com wrote:

And remember how late they were to network support?

I had a computer store at that time and sold a lot of Artisoft LANtastic
kits because Win3.1 did not have network support.  I believe it was
slipstreamed in 3.11.

Most of my installations were so several machines in an office could share a
common printer.

Dave

On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 9:24 AM, Jim Lux jimlux@earthlink.net wrote:

There was also OS/2...

Not to mention that in the early 80s, Microsoft was a leading supplier of
Unix, er, Xenix!  Here is an interesting history:

http://www.softpanorama.org/People/Torvalds/Finland_period/xenix_microsoft_shortlived_love_affair_with_unix.shtml

and note the comment by John Wilson* here:

https://plus.google.com/112975947891556571931/posts/Vpmx4EBMCR3

Yes, Unix was alive and well back then and Microsoft were actively using
and selling it.  The PC market was a different animal.

Orin,
Worked in Europe in the early 80s with Xenix.

*Managed the group at Logica in London that sold Xenix in Europe.  He had
the misfortune that Microsoft kept poaching his staff to work in Redmond on
Windows!

On 11/3/2012 6:31 PM, Orin Eman wrote:

The best OpSys ever....  killed by IBM itself, as an internal, confidential, report
indicated that developing middleware for Windows NT could produce much more
revenues than continuing to develop OS/2...

So they decided to let it slowly die, by moving developers from Boca Raton, FL,
to the West coast where that middleware had its developing labs...

73  Alberto  I2PHD

Reykjavík, Iceland is UTC+0 without summer time changes.

Brent

On 11/3/2012 9:55 AM, Sarah White wrote:

http://inkushi.freeshell.org/screenshot-1351958570177.png

^See? Hence my filing a bug report a few hours ago.

On 11/3/2012 8:54 PM, Brent Gordon wrote: