GS
Geoffrey Smith
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 1:45 AM
Folks,
Following the Peter Gottlieb post, it seems that a number of list members
have been "victims" of carriers that mishandled badly packed gear. I now
too often the heart ache of a broken handles and the handle through the box
wall, not to mention that rattling sound as a something rolls around in the
cabinet.
May I suggest that we pool our ideas on minimum packing requirements to be
posted as an article on say "ebay". Simple thing like no loose beans,
bubble wrap size for instrument weight, box wall thickness, preparedness to
pay for better packing ( there is no free lunch) etc. Forget insurance,
bad packing voids most policies and who can value the loss anyway.
There may be appropriate MIL standards? May be even a feedback score on
ebay if we all ask for it?
I notice that the experienced sellers can still pack test equipment with
recycled packaging and get the items from Europe, USA and Asia in the
condition it was advertised. Conversely I also note that the newer ebay
list-ers are more likely to have packing problems.
Regards
Geoffrey Smith
Mobile: 0412 299 922
E-Mail geoffsmithoz@tpg.com.au
Folks,
Following the Peter Gottlieb post, it seems that a number of list members
have been "victims" of carriers that mishandled badly packed gear. I now
too often the heart ache of a broken handles and the handle through the box
wall, not to mention that rattling sound as a something rolls around in the
cabinet.
May I suggest that we pool our ideas on minimum packing requirements to be
posted as an article on say "ebay". Simple thing like no loose beans,
bubble wrap size for instrument weight, box wall thickness, preparedness to
pay for better packing ( there is no free lunch) etc. Forget insurance,
bad packing voids most policies and who can value the loss anyway.
There may be appropriate MIL standards? May be even a feedback score on
ebay if we all ask for it?
I notice that the experienced sellers can still pack test equipment with
recycled packaging and get the items from Europe, USA and Asia in the
condition it was advertised. Conversely I also note that the newer ebay
list-ers are more likely to have packing problems.
Regards
Geoffrey Smith
Mobile: 0412 299 922
E-Mail geoffsmithoz@tpg.com.au
JL
Jim Lux
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 4:49 AM
On 9/11/12 6:45 PM, Geoffrey Smith wrote:
Folks,
Following the Peter Gottlieb post, it seems that a number of list members
have been "victims" of carriers that mishandled badly packed gear. I now
too often the heart ache of a broken handles and the handle through the box
wall, not to mention that rattling sound as a something rolls around in the
cabinet.
May I suggest that we pool our ideas on minimum packing requirements to be
posted as an article on say "ebay". Simple thing like no loose beans,
bubble wrap size for instrument weight, box wall thickness, preparedness to
pay for better packing ( there is no free lunch) etc. Forget insurance,
bad packing voids most policies and who can value the loss anyway.
There may be appropriate MIL standards? May be even a feedback score on
ebay if we all ask for it?
I notice that the experienced sellers can still pack test equipment with
recycled packaging and get the items from Europe, USA and Asia in the
condition it was advertised. Conversely I also note that the newer ebay
list-ers are more likely to have packing problems.
Packaging is a very complex science...
We had an incident a couple years ago where a piece of not-quite-flight
prototype hardware was packed in a standard foam filled shipping case;
hand carried on the plane with a second seat, etc. It slipped when
getting it out of the minivan at the destination and he caught it
between his knees and the bumper and it slid to the ground.
Some of the shock sensors on the package tripped.
Since this is
a) a million dollar piece of gear
b) essentially a rehearsal of the delivery of the real deal a few months
later
There was a LOT of official attention.
Here's what I learned:
- we put shock sensors that were WAY too sensitive on the package (if
your device can take a 50g shock, and you put 10g shock sensors on, all
you get is aggravation, not useful information) given the actual
fragility of the part.
- Nobody actually knows how much packaging is right, without a lot of
research. It is CERTAINLY not a simple "use X inches" of foam or
something like that. You need to know the "spring constant" of the
packing material and then calculate the forces when it's dropped (from
some specified height) and figure out what the peak acceleration is.
there's a whole science to this.
As you can imagine, it turns out that foam can be too stiff or too soft,
and that the appropriate foam density and thickness is dependent on both
the mass of the thing being supported and the expected loading.
the previous guidelines we had of "ensure 4" of foam" and stuff like
that were basically worthless, and we'd just been lucky in the past.
People who design shipping packaging for things like computers actually
build test packages and instrument them,because, basically, it's an
empirical design problem. (there was a an interesting case of someone
shipping an iPhone recording accelerations via various shippers a couple
years ago).. The iPhone maxes out way too low, but you could easily
build a suitable tester with an Arduino and some off the shelf
accelerometer shields.. Or, if you're being paid to do this, you spend
$600 and buy the calibrated recording accelerometer and do some tests.
Take home message: packaging is non trivial. A simple: "pack it in two
boxes with X inches of crumpled paper or peanuts" isn't going to work.
Historically, at work, we've had reasonably good luck with the "foam in
place" scheme where they squirt a expanding foam into plastic bags
around your stuff (if you've rented test equipment, you know what I'm
talking about). But I suspect there's a whole art to picking a foam
density and box size that this works for, most of the time.
In general, this will wind up with a box that is MUCH larger than you
think. When you're shipping a 50k network analyzer, a few hundred bucks
extra in shipping for dimensional size penalties isn't a big deal. When
you're shipping a $100 surplus widget, perhaps it is.
On 9/11/12 6:45 PM, Geoffrey Smith wrote:
> Folks,
>
> Following the Peter Gottlieb post, it seems that a number of list members
> have been "victims" of carriers that mishandled badly packed gear. I now
> too often the heart ache of a broken handles and the handle through the box
> wall, not to mention that rattling sound as a something rolls around in the
> cabinet.
>
> May I suggest that we pool our ideas on minimum packing requirements to be
> posted as an article on say "ebay". Simple thing like no loose beans,
> bubble wrap size for instrument weight, box wall thickness, preparedness to
> pay for better packing ( there is no free lunch) etc. Forget insurance,
> bad packing voids most policies and who can value the loss anyway.
>
> There may be appropriate MIL standards? May be even a feedback score on
> ebay if we all ask for it?
>
> I notice that the experienced sellers can still pack test equipment with
> recycled packaging and get the items from Europe, USA and Asia in the
> condition it was advertised. Conversely I also note that the newer ebay
> list-ers are more likely to have packing problems.
>
Packaging is a very complex science...
We had an incident a couple years ago where a piece of not-quite-flight
prototype hardware was packed in a standard foam filled shipping case;
hand carried on the plane with a second seat, etc. It slipped when
getting it out of the minivan at the destination and he caught it
between his knees and the bumper and it slid to the ground.
Some of the shock sensors on the package tripped.
Since this is
a) a million dollar piece of gear
b) essentially a rehearsal of the delivery of the real deal a few months
later
There was a LOT of official attention.
Here's what I learned:
1) we put shock sensors that were WAY too sensitive on the package (if
your device can take a 50g shock, and you put 10g shock sensors on, all
you get is aggravation, not useful information) given the actual
fragility of the part.
2) Nobody actually knows how much packaging is right, without a lot of
research. It is CERTAINLY not a simple "use X inches" of foam or
something like that. You need to know the "spring constant" of the
packing material and then calculate the forces when it's dropped (from
some specified height) and figure out what the peak acceleration is.
there's a whole science to this.
As you can imagine, it turns out that foam can be too stiff or too soft,
and that the appropriate foam density and thickness is dependent on both
the mass of the thing being supported and the expected loading.
the previous guidelines we had of "ensure 4" of foam" and stuff like
that were basically worthless, and we'd just been lucky in the past.
People who design shipping packaging for things like computers actually
build test packages and instrument them,because, basically, it's an
empirical design problem. (there was a an interesting case of someone
shipping an iPhone recording accelerations via various shippers a couple
years ago).. The iPhone maxes out way too low, but you could easily
build a suitable tester with an Arduino and some off the shelf
accelerometer shields.. Or, if you're being paid to do this, you spend
$600 and buy the calibrated recording accelerometer and do some tests.
Take home message: packaging is non trivial. A simple: "pack it in two
boxes with X inches of crumpled paper or peanuts" isn't going to work.
Historically, at work, we've had reasonably good luck with the "foam in
place" scheme where they squirt a expanding foam into plastic bags
around your stuff (if you've rented test equipment, you know what I'm
talking about). But I suspect there's a whole art to picking a foam
density and box size that this works for, most of the time.
In general, this will wind up with a box that is MUCH larger than you
think. When you're shipping a 50k network analyzer, a few hundred bucks
extra in shipping for dimensional size penalties isn't a big deal. When
you're shipping a $100 surplus widget, perhaps it is.
CP
Charles P. Steinmetz
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:22 AM
As you can imagine, it turns out that foam can be too stiff or too
soft, and that the appropriate foam density and thickness is
dependent on both the mass of the thing being supported and the
expected loading.
You also need to pay attantion to what parts of the item can bear how
much loading, and from which directions -- knobs, connectors, and
many handles can't bear much, for example -- and design the packaging
to route loads around these features to other parts of the item that
can bear them. That's what all the carefully folded cardboard and
die-cut foam in engineered pakaging do.
Take home message: packaging is non trivial. A simple: "pack it in
two boxes with X inches of crumpled paper or peanuts" isn't going to work.
There is no substitute for a basic understanding of the physics
involved and the properties of available packing materials. The
mistake I see most often is that the contents of a box are not
immobilized by the packing. When the box is in motion and then
stopped abruptly, the item has a running start to smash into the
inside of the box and whatever stopped it. Sometimes there is enough
packing material to fill the space in the box but it just isn't stiff
enough (e.g., light open-cell foam), and sometimes there isn't enough
packing material so there is air space inside the box. Frequently,
both. The buffer material for a 50 to 100 pound item needs to be
considerably stiffer than most people think.
That said, it's not rocket science. Large-bubble bubble wrap,
wrapped TIGHTLY around the item in at least two directions until
there is at least 4" on all sides of the item, is a very good start
for anything up to about 100 pounds (6" on all sides is better by the
time you get to 100 pounds). You may need to use sheets of styrofoam
insulation, heavy cardboard, or plywood to make sure loads will not
bear on fragile parts of the item. The bubble wrap must be taped up
very tightly so the wrapped item feels like a monolith bursting at
the seams, then put into a box rated for the weight of the item.
All internal space in the box must be filled with packing -- the
bubble wrap, applied as described, will make a rounded shape, so
peanuts or something else must be used to fill the gaps to the square
corners of the box (I hate peanuts, so I generally use rolls of
bubble wrap, pieces of styrofoam building insulation, etc.).
Finally, the entire contents should modestly overfill the box -- you
should have to compress the packing to get the box shut. When you
do, USE TAPE FREELY. Do not depend on tape-to-box adhesion -- wrap
wide (at least 2"), strong tape all the way around the box
(fiberglass filament tape is excellent), lapping the tape over itself
the entire length of the longest side to form a tape band all the way
around the box. Wrap tape all three ways around the box (all three
axes). For smaller boxes, you can wrap once per axis, in the middle
of the box. For larger boxes, you need to use two or even three of
these loops per axis, spaced out along the box.
You can also build up most of the buffer with styrofoam building
insulation, if you prefer. I still like to use an inch or two (all
sides) of tightly-wrapped bubble wrap as the innermost layer.
All of this is not exactly free, and takes a bit of time -- I often
use a whole roll of bubble wrap, sometimes more, and half a roll or
more of tape, for a benchtop instrument or a boatanchor radio. Plus
a good, sturdy box. But I have never once had an item damaged in
shipping, since long before there was an eBay.
Best regards,
Charles
Jim wrote:
>As you can imagine, it turns out that foam can be too stiff or too
>soft, and that the appropriate foam density and thickness is
>dependent on both the mass of the thing being supported and the
>expected loading.
You also need to pay attantion to what parts of the item can bear how
much loading, and from which directions -- knobs, connectors, and
many handles can't bear much, for example -- and design the packaging
to route loads around these features to other parts of the item that
can bear them. That's what all the carefully folded cardboard and
die-cut foam in engineered pakaging do.
>Take home message: packaging is non trivial. A simple: "pack it in
>two boxes with X inches of crumpled paper or peanuts" isn't going to work.
There is no substitute for a basic understanding of the physics
involved and the properties of available packing materials. The
mistake I see most often is that the contents of a box are not
immobilized by the packing. When the box is in motion and then
stopped abruptly, the item has a running start to smash into the
inside of the box and whatever stopped it. Sometimes there is enough
packing material to fill the space in the box but it just isn't stiff
enough (e.g., light open-cell foam), and sometimes there isn't enough
packing material so there is air space inside the box. Frequently,
both. The buffer material for a 50 to 100 pound item needs to be
considerably stiffer than most people think.
That said, it's not rocket science. Large-bubble bubble wrap,
wrapped TIGHTLY around the item in at least two directions until
there is at least 4" on all sides of the item, is a very good start
for anything up to about 100 pounds (6" on all sides is better by the
time you get to 100 pounds). You may need to use sheets of styrofoam
insulation, heavy cardboard, or plywood to make sure loads will not
bear on fragile parts of the item. The bubble wrap must be taped up
very tightly so the wrapped item feels like a monolith bursting at
the seams, then put into a box rated for the weight of the item.
All internal space in the box must be filled with packing -- the
bubble wrap, applied as described, will make a rounded shape, so
peanuts or something else must be used to fill the gaps to the square
corners of the box (I hate peanuts, so I generally use rolls of
bubble wrap, pieces of styrofoam building insulation, etc.).
Finally, the entire contents should modestly overfill the box -- you
should have to compress the packing to get the box shut. When you
do, USE TAPE FREELY. Do not depend on tape-to-box adhesion -- wrap
wide (at least 2"), strong tape all the way around the box
(fiberglass filament tape is excellent), lapping the tape over itself
the entire length of the longest side to form a tape band all the way
around the box. Wrap tape all three ways around the box (all three
axes). For smaller boxes, you can wrap once per axis, in the middle
of the box. For larger boxes, you need to use two or even three of
these loops per axis, spaced out along the box.
You can also build up most of the buffer with styrofoam building
insulation, if you prefer. I still like to use an inch or two (all
sides) of tightly-wrapped bubble wrap as the innermost layer.
All of this is not exactly free, and takes a bit of time -- I often
use a whole roll of bubble wrap, sometimes more, and half a roll or
more of tape, for a benchtop instrument or a boatanchor radio. Plus
a good, sturdy box. But I have never once had an item damaged in
shipping, since long before there was an eBay.
Best regards,
Charles
JF
J. Forster
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 1:49 PM
I avoid styrofoam insulation because:
It is too rigid and therefore transmits shocks to the object.
Once crushed, it provides no further protecrion.
-John
=================
As you can imagine, it turns out that foam can be too stiff or too
soft, and that the appropriate foam density and thickness is
dependent on both the mass of the thing being supported and the
expected loading.
You also need to pay attantion to what parts of the item can bear how
much loading, and from which directions -- knobs, connectors, and
many handles can't bear much, for example -- and design the packaging
to route loads around these features to other parts of the item that
can bear them. That's what all the carefully folded cardboard and
die-cut foam in engineered pakaging do.
Take home message: packaging is non trivial. A simple: "pack it in
two boxes with X inches of crumpled paper or peanuts" isn't going to
work.
There is no substitute for a basic understanding of the physics
involved and the properties of available packing materials. The
mistake I see most often is that the contents of a box are not
immobilized by the packing. When the box is in motion and then
stopped abruptly, the item has a running start to smash into the
inside of the box and whatever stopped it. Sometimes there is enough
packing material to fill the space in the box but it just isn't stiff
enough (e.g., light open-cell foam), and sometimes there isn't enough
packing material so there is air space inside the box. Frequently,
both. The buffer material for a 50 to 100 pound item needs to be
considerably stiffer than most people think.
That said, it's not rocket science. Large-bubble bubble wrap,
wrapped TIGHTLY around the item in at least two directions until
there is at least 4" on all sides of the item, is a very good start
for anything up to about 100 pounds (6" on all sides is better by the
time you get to 100 pounds). You may need to use sheets of styrofoam
insulation, heavy cardboard, or plywood to make sure loads will not
bear on fragile parts of the item. The bubble wrap must be taped up
very tightly so the wrapped item feels like a monolith bursting at
the seams, then put into a box rated for the weight of the item.
All internal space in the box must be filled with packing -- the
bubble wrap, applied as described, will make a rounded shape, so
peanuts or something else must be used to fill the gaps to the square
corners of the box (I hate peanuts, so I generally use rolls of
bubble wrap, pieces of styrofoam building insulation, etc.).
Finally, the entire contents should modestly overfill the box -- you
should have to compress the packing to get the box shut. When you
do, USE TAPE FREELY. Do not depend on tape-to-box adhesion -- wrap
wide (at least 2"), strong tape all the way around the box
(fiberglass filament tape is excellent), lapping the tape over itself
the entire length of the longest side to form a tape band all the way
around the box. Wrap tape all three ways around the box (all three
axes). For smaller boxes, you can wrap once per axis, in the middle
of the box. For larger boxes, you need to use two or even three of
these loops per axis, spaced out along the box.
You can also build up most of the buffer with styrofoam building
insulation, if you prefer. I still like to use an inch or two (all
sides) of tightly-wrapped bubble wrap as the innermost layer.
All of this is not exactly free, and takes a bit of time -- I often
use a whole roll of bubble wrap, sometimes more, and half a roll or
more of tape, for a benchtop instrument or a boatanchor radio. Plus
a good, sturdy box. But I have never once had an item damaged in
shipping, since long before there was an eBay.
Best regards,
Charles
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
I avoid styrofoam insulation because:
It is too rigid and therefore transmits shocks to the object.
Once crushed, it provides no further protecrion.
-John
=================
> Jim wrote:
>
>>As you can imagine, it turns out that foam can be too stiff or too
>>soft, and that the appropriate foam density and thickness is
>>dependent on both the mass of the thing being supported and the
>>expected loading.
>
> You also need to pay attantion to what parts of the item can bear how
> much loading, and from which directions -- knobs, connectors, and
> many handles can't bear much, for example -- and design the packaging
> to route loads around these features to other parts of the item that
> can bear them. That's what all the carefully folded cardboard and
> die-cut foam in engineered pakaging do.
>
>>Take home message: packaging is non trivial. A simple: "pack it in
>>two boxes with X inches of crumpled paper or peanuts" isn't going to
>> work.
>
> There is no substitute for a basic understanding of the physics
> involved and the properties of available packing materials. The
> mistake I see most often is that the contents of a box are not
> immobilized by the packing. When the box is in motion and then
> stopped abruptly, the item has a running start to smash into the
> inside of the box and whatever stopped it. Sometimes there is enough
> packing material to fill the space in the box but it just isn't stiff
> enough (e.g., light open-cell foam), and sometimes there isn't enough
> packing material so there is air space inside the box. Frequently,
> both. The buffer material for a 50 to 100 pound item needs to be
> considerably stiffer than most people think.
>
> That said, it's not rocket science. Large-bubble bubble wrap,
> wrapped TIGHTLY around the item in at least two directions until
> there is at least 4" on all sides of the item, is a very good start
> for anything up to about 100 pounds (6" on all sides is better by the
> time you get to 100 pounds). You may need to use sheets of styrofoam
> insulation, heavy cardboard, or plywood to make sure loads will not
> bear on fragile parts of the item. The bubble wrap must be taped up
> very tightly so the wrapped item feels like a monolith bursting at
> the seams, then put into a box rated for the weight of the item.
>
> All internal space in the box must be filled with packing -- the
> bubble wrap, applied as described, will make a rounded shape, so
> peanuts or something else must be used to fill the gaps to the square
> corners of the box (I hate peanuts, so I generally use rolls of
> bubble wrap, pieces of styrofoam building insulation, etc.).
>
> Finally, the entire contents should modestly overfill the box -- you
> should have to compress the packing to get the box shut. When you
> do, USE TAPE FREELY. Do not depend on tape-to-box adhesion -- wrap
> wide (at least 2"), strong tape all the way around the box
> (fiberglass filament tape is excellent), lapping the tape over itself
> the entire length of the longest side to form a tape band all the way
> around the box. Wrap tape all three ways around the box (all three
> axes). For smaller boxes, you can wrap once per axis, in the middle
> of the box. For larger boxes, you need to use two or even three of
> these loops per axis, spaced out along the box.
>
> You can also build up most of the buffer with styrofoam building
> insulation, if you prefer. I still like to use an inch or two (all
> sides) of tightly-wrapped bubble wrap as the innermost layer.
>
> All of this is not exactly free, and takes a bit of time -- I often
> use a whole roll of bubble wrap, sometimes more, and half a roll or
> more of tape, for a benchtop instrument or a boatanchor radio. Plus
> a good, sturdy box. But I have never once had an item damaged in
> shipping, since long before there was an eBay.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Charles
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>
BC
Brooke Clarke
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 2:29 PM
Hi:
I have a web page devoted to packaging, mainly examples of bad packaging I've received, and some vendors who do an
excellent job.
http://www.prc68.com/I/Pack.shtml
Have Fun,
Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
Hi:
I have a web page devoted to packaging, mainly examples of bad packaging I've received, and some vendors who do an
excellent job.
http://www.prc68.com/I/Pack.shtml
Have Fun,
Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
CA
Chris Albertson
Wed, Sep 12, 2012 3:11 PM
May I suggest that we pool our ideas on minimum packing requirements to be
posted as an article on say "ebay". Simple thing like no loose beans,
bubble wrap size for instrument weight, box wall thickness, preparedness to
pay for better packing ( there is no free lunch) etc.
On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 6:45 PM, Geoffrey Smith <geoffsmithoz@tpg.com.au>wrote:
>
> May I suggest that we pool our ideas on minimum packing requirements to be
> posted as an article on say "ebay". Simple thing like no loose beans,
> bubble wrap size for instrument weight, box wall thickness, preparedness to
> pay for better packing ( there is no free lunch) etc.
You might link to this. Then add a little bit that is instrument specific.
.../guidelines/how_to.html<http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resources/ship/packaging/guidelines/how_to.html>
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California