MB
Michael Baker
Wed, Nov 3, 2010 6:10 PM
Timenutters--
The question was asked-- Why can't a large aperture
high-resolution optic be used to locate bullet holes
in a target at 800 yards?
Consider this--: I often shoot at targets on the
600 yard berm at the Manatee Range (near Bradenton,
FL). Typically, by 11AM the atmospheric shimmering
mirage distortion makes even the 4" target hard to see.
By 1PM the use of any rifle scope magnification
greater than around 10X is an exercise in futility.
Often, the mirage is severe enough that even the
12" steel plates are hard to find through a 10X
scope.
.30" holes in a target...? No way.
Other questions that were asked: To what degree of
accuracy can the 800 yard distance be measured?
I have a laser range-finder which has been verified
to be within +/- 20 inches out to 1000 yards (the
U of F college of Engineering has a series of distance
marker posts set up for some research they were doing).
What kind of accuracy is expected for measuring bullet
velocity at the shooting bench and downrange? I have
a set of Oehler Research sky-screen chronographs that
use a 10MHz crystal for clocking the counting registers.
The projectiles start out at roughly between 2750 FPS and
3100 fps and end up downrange not slower than around
1800 fps. Assume sky-screen clocking ambiguities of
only a couple of clock pulses.
As an aside, projectiles whose velocity drops to
sub-sonic at 800 yds are of no interest to me.
The transition from super-sonic to sub-sonic generally
includes conditions that create inaccuracy.
I am VERY grateful for the feedback on this topic!
A couple of innovative suggestions from list members
have given me food for thought and I am going
to pursue looking into them.
My first chore is to investigate what kind of pulse
rise-times I get from a selection of inexpensive
ultrasonic sensors when a supersonic bullet passes
within a couple of feet from them. I have a Tek
2252 scope that I can place downrange to look at the
sensors with but storing the waveform for examination
may be a problem (no one seems to have volunteered to
stand downrange monitoring the scope screen!)
The Tek 2252 has a Centronix screen-capture printer
output but it is an Epson FX format and I have no
idea if any current printers at the local Office Mart
are compatible with the Epson FX data format. Anyone
on the TimeNuts list have any thoughts on this?
The 2252 scope also has a GPIB port but I don't know
if it outputs the printer data. I have a Sparkfun
GPIB/USB dongle but that may not be of any use if
there is no printer data on the GPIB port.
Mike Baker
Timenutters--
The question was asked-- Why can't a large aperture
high-resolution optic be used to locate bullet holes
in a target at 800 yards?
Consider this--: I often shoot at targets on the
600 yard berm at the Manatee Range (near Bradenton,
FL). Typically, by 11AM the atmospheric shimmering
mirage distortion makes even the 4" target hard to see.
By 1PM the use of any rifle scope magnification
greater than around 10X is an exercise in futility.
Often, the mirage is severe enough that even the
12" steel plates are hard to find through a 10X
scope.
.30" holes in a target...? No way.
-----------------
Other questions that were asked: To what degree of
accuracy can the 800 yard distance be measured?
I have a laser range-finder which has been verified
to be within +/- 20 inches out to 1000 yards (the
U of F college of Engineering has a series of distance
marker posts set up for some research they were doing).
What kind of accuracy is expected for measuring bullet
velocity at the shooting bench and downrange? I have
a set of Oehler Research sky-screen chronographs that
use a 10MHz crystal for clocking the counting registers.
The projectiles start out at roughly between 2750 FPS and
3100 fps and end up downrange not slower than around
1800 fps. Assume sky-screen clocking ambiguities of
only a couple of clock pulses.
As an aside, projectiles whose velocity drops to
sub-sonic at 800 yds are of no interest to me.
The transition from super-sonic to sub-sonic generally
includes conditions that create inaccuracy.
I am VERY grateful for the feedback on this topic!
A couple of innovative suggestions from list members
have given me food for thought and I am going
to pursue looking into them.
My first chore is to investigate what kind of pulse
rise-times I get from a selection of inexpensive
ultrasonic sensors when a supersonic bullet passes
within a couple of feet from them. I have a Tek
2252 scope that I can place downrange to look at the
sensors with but storing the waveform for examination
may be a problem (no one seems to have volunteered to
stand downrange monitoring the scope screen!)
The Tek 2252 has a Centronix screen-capture printer
output but it is an Epson FX format and I have no
idea if any current printers at the local Office Mart
are compatible with the Epson FX data format. Anyone
on the TimeNuts list have any thoughts on this?
The 2252 scope also has a GPIB port but I don't know
if it outputs the printer data. I have a Sparkfun
GPIB/USB dongle but that may not be of any use if
there is no printer data on the GPIB port.
Mike Baker
-------------------
JM
John Miles
Wed, Nov 3, 2010 6:40 PM
My first chore is to investigate what kind of pulse
rise-times I get from a selection of inexpensive
ultrasonic sensors when a supersonic bullet passes
within a couple of feet from them. I have a Tek
2252 scope that I can place downrange to look at the
sensors with but storing the waveform for examination
may be a problem (no one seems to have volunteered to
stand downrange monitoring the scope screen!)
The Tek 2252 has a Centronix screen-capture printer
output but it is an Epson FX format and I have no
idea if any current printers at the local Office Mart
are compatible with the Epson FX data format. Anyone
on the TimeNuts list have any thoughts on this?
www.printcapture.com should be able to deal with the Epson format, I
believe. They have a free trial version.
The 2252 scope also has a GPIB port but I don't know
if it outputs the printer data. I have a Sparkfun
GPIB/USB dongle but that may not be of any use if
there is no printer data on the GPIB port.
It almost certainly will support dumping HPGL or Epson data to GPIB.
-- john, KE5FX
> My first chore is to investigate what kind of pulse
> rise-times I get from a selection of inexpensive
> ultrasonic sensors when a supersonic bullet passes
> within a couple of feet from them. I have a Tek
> 2252 scope that I can place downrange to look at the
> sensors with but storing the waveform for examination
> may be a problem (no one seems to have volunteered to
> stand downrange monitoring the scope screen!)
> The Tek 2252 has a Centronix screen-capture printer
> output but it is an Epson FX format and I have no
> idea if any current printers at the local Office Mart
> are compatible with the Epson FX data format. Anyone
> on the TimeNuts list have any thoughts on this?
www.printcapture.com should be able to deal with the Epson format, I
believe. They have a free trial version.
> The 2252 scope also has a GPIB port but I don't know
> if it outputs the printer data. I have a Sparkfun
> GPIB/USB dongle but that may not be of any use if
> there is no printer data on the GPIB port.
It almost certainly will support dumping HPGL or Epson data to GPIB.
-- john, KE5FX
DM
David McClain
Wed, Nov 3, 2010 9:16 PM
How about a "rubber-mirror", adaptive optics? We use this on our
large telescopes to overcome the atmospheric scintillation, otherwise
known as speckle-patterns. Works exceedingly well...
Atmospheric turbulence can be described by a Kolmogorov distribution,
or equivalently as a chaotic attractor basin of fractal dimension
between 6 and 7. Hence a feedback Perceptron neural network can be
trained on the speckle sequences and this also works very well.
That's how we did it on the Steward Observatory 90-inch.
Dr. David McClain
Chief Technical Officer
Refined Audiometrics Laboratory
4391 N. Camino Ferreo
Tucson, AZ 85750
email: dbm@refined-audiometrics.com
phone: 1.520.390.3995
web: http://refined-audiometrics.com
On Nov 3, 2010, at 11:10, Michael Baker wrote:
Timenutters--
The question was asked-- Why can't a large aperture
high-resolution optic be used to locate bullet holes
in a target at 800 yards?
Consider this--: I often shoot at targets on the
600 yard berm at the Manatee Range (near Bradenton,
FL). Typically, by 11AM the atmospheric shimmering
mirage distortion makes even the 4" target hard to see.
By 1PM the use of any rifle scope magnification
greater than around 10X is an exercise in futility.
Often, the mirage is severe enough that even the
12" steel plates are hard to find through a 10X
scope.
.30" holes in a target...? No way.
-----------------
Other questions that were asked: To what degree of
accuracy can the 800 yard distance be measured?
I have a laser range-finder which has been verified
to be within +/- 20 inches out to 1000 yards (the
U of F college of Engineering has a series of distance
marker posts set up for some research they were doing).
What kind of accuracy is expected for measuring bullet
velocity at the shooting bench and downrange? I have
a set of Oehler Research sky-screen chronographs that
use a 10MHz crystal for clocking the counting registers.
The projectiles start out at roughly between 2750 FPS and
3100 fps and end up downrange not slower than around
1800 fps. Assume sky-screen clocking ambiguities of
only a couple of clock pulses.
As an aside, projectiles whose velocity drops to
sub-sonic at 800 yds are of no interest to me.
The transition from super-sonic to sub-sonic generally
includes conditions that create inaccuracy.
I am VERY grateful for the feedback on this topic!
A couple of innovative suggestions from list members
have given me food for thought and I am going
to pursue looking into them.
My first chore is to investigate what kind of pulse
rise-times I get from a selection of inexpensive
ultrasonic sensors when a supersonic bullet passes
within a couple of feet from them. I have a Tek
2252 scope that I can place downrange to look at the
sensors with but storing the waveform for examination
may be a problem (no one seems to have volunteered to
stand downrange monitoring the scope screen!)
The Tek 2252 has a Centronix screen-capture printer
output but it is an Epson FX format and I have no
idea if any current printers at the local Office Mart
are compatible with the Epson FX data format. Anyone
on the TimeNuts list have any thoughts on this?
The 2252 scope also has a GPIB port but I don't know
if it outputs the printer data. I have a Sparkfun
GPIB/USB dongle but that may not be of any use if
there is no printer data on the GPIB port.
Mike Baker
-------------------
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/
time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
How about a "rubber-mirror", adaptive optics? We use this on our
large telescopes to overcome the atmospheric scintillation, otherwise
known as speckle-patterns. Works exceedingly well...
Atmospheric turbulence can be described by a Kolmogorov distribution,
or equivalently as a chaotic attractor basin of fractal dimension
between 6 and 7. Hence a feedback Perceptron neural network can be
trained on the speckle sequences and this also works very well.
That's how we did it on the Steward Observatory 90-inch.
Dr. David McClain
Chief Technical Officer
Refined Audiometrics Laboratory
4391 N. Camino Ferreo
Tucson, AZ 85750
email: dbm@refined-audiometrics.com
phone: 1.520.390.3995
web: http://refined-audiometrics.com
On Nov 3, 2010, at 11:10, Michael Baker wrote:
> Timenutters--
> The question was asked-- Why can't a large aperture
> high-resolution optic be used to locate bullet holes
> in a target at 800 yards?
> Consider this--: I often shoot at targets on the
> 600 yard berm at the Manatee Range (near Bradenton,
> FL). Typically, by 11AM the atmospheric shimmering
> mirage distortion makes even the 4" target hard to see.
> By 1PM the use of any rifle scope magnification
> greater than around 10X is an exercise in futility.
> Often, the mirage is severe enough that even the
> 12" steel plates are hard to find through a 10X
> scope.
> .30" holes in a target...? No way.
> -----------------
> Other questions that were asked: To what degree of
> accuracy can the 800 yard distance be measured?
> I have a laser range-finder which has been verified
> to be within +/- 20 inches out to 1000 yards (the
> U of F college of Engineering has a series of distance
> marker posts set up for some research they were doing).
> What kind of accuracy is expected for measuring bullet
> velocity at the shooting bench and downrange? I have
> a set of Oehler Research sky-screen chronographs that
> use a 10MHz crystal for clocking the counting registers.
> The projectiles start out at roughly between 2750 FPS and
> 3100 fps and end up downrange not slower than around
> 1800 fps. Assume sky-screen clocking ambiguities of
> only a couple of clock pulses.
> As an aside, projectiles whose velocity drops to
> sub-sonic at 800 yds are of no interest to me.
> The transition from super-sonic to sub-sonic generally
> includes conditions that create inaccuracy.
> I am VERY grateful for the feedback on this topic!
> A couple of innovative suggestions from list members
> have given me food for thought and I am going
> to pursue looking into them.
> My first chore is to investigate what kind of pulse
> rise-times I get from a selection of inexpensive
> ultrasonic sensors when a supersonic bullet passes
> within a couple of feet from them. I have a Tek
> 2252 scope that I can place downrange to look at the
> sensors with but storing the waveform for examination
> may be a problem (no one seems to have volunteered to
> stand downrange monitoring the scope screen!)
> The Tek 2252 has a Centronix screen-capture printer
> output but it is an Epson FX format and I have no
> idea if any current printers at the local Office Mart
> are compatible with the Epson FX data format. Anyone
> on the TimeNuts list have any thoughts on this?
> The 2252 scope also has a GPIB port but I don't know
> if it outputs the printer data. I have a Sparkfun
> GPIB/USB dongle but that may not be of any use if
> there is no printer data on the GPIB port.
> Mike Baker
> -------------------
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/
> time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
BH
Bill Hawkins
Wed, Nov 3, 2010 9:38 PM
Group,
I haven't been following this thread that won't die, but I've
contributed to others :^)
If the problem is that it is expensive to detect when a bullet
hits a target half a mile away, then have I got a solution for
you!
Visit any friendly neighborhood terrorist supply store and buy
a small quantity of PETN, or any other explosive that can be
detonated by the impact of a bullet. Smear a coating of this
over the area of the target that you intend to hit.
When you hit the target, there will be a very bright flash
with a very fast propagation velocity, which should be adequate
for the average 10X scope and photosensor.
No, I don't know where to find a terrorist supply store. Perhaps
you can make do with the PETN in blasting caps, or brew up a
batch of nitrogen tri-iodide, as any college freshman could do
in the fifties. Or try the powders from a Very pistol flare.
Yours for more creative solutions,
Bill Hawkins
Group,
I haven't been following this thread that won't die, but I've
contributed to others :^)
If the problem is that it is expensive to detect when a bullet
hits a target half a mile away, then have I got a solution for
you!
Visit any friendly neighborhood terrorist supply store and buy
a small quantity of PETN, or any other explosive that can be
detonated by the impact of a bullet. Smear a coating of this
over the area of the target that you intend to hit.
When you hit the target, there will be a very bright flash
with a very fast propagation velocity, which should be adequate
for the average 10X scope and photosensor.
No, I don't know where to find a terrorist supply store. Perhaps
you can make do with the PETN in blasting caps, or brew up a
batch of nitrogen tri-iodide, as any college freshman could do
in the fifties. Or try the powders from a Very pistol flare.
Yours for more creative solutions,
Bill Hawkins
BH
Bill Hawkins
Wed, Nov 3, 2010 9:40 PM
Actually, some old dynamite that is leaking an oily liquid
is a sure-fire way to get a flash. Just don't drop it.
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Hawkins [mailto:bill@iaxs.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 4:39 PM
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Why .30 cal holes can't be seen at 800 yds...
Group,
I haven't been following this thread that won't die, but I've
contributed to others :^)
If the problem is that it is expensive to detect when a bullet
hits a target half a mile away, then have I got a solution for
you!
Visit any friendly neighborhood terrorist supply store and buy
a small quantity of PETN, or any other explosive that can be
detonated by the impact of a bullet. Smear a coating of this
over the area of the target that you intend to hit.
When you hit the target, there will be a very bright flash
with a very fast propagation velocity, which should be adequate
for the average 10X scope and photosensor.
No, I don't know where to find a terrorist supply store. Perhaps
you can make do with the PETN in blasting caps, or brew up a
batch of nitrogen tri-iodide, as any college freshman could do
in the fifties. Or try the powders from a Very pistol flare.
Yours for more creative solutions,
Bill Hawkins
Actually, some old dynamite that is leaking an oily liquid
is a sure-fire way to get a flash. Just don't drop it.
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Hawkins [mailto:bill@iaxs.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 4:39 PM
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Why .30 cal holes can't be seen at 800 yds...
Group,
I haven't been following this thread that won't die, but I've
contributed to others :^)
If the problem is that it is expensive to detect when a bullet
hits a target half a mile away, then have I got a solution for
you!
Visit any friendly neighborhood terrorist supply store and buy
a small quantity of PETN, or any other explosive that can be
detonated by the impact of a bullet. Smear a coating of this
over the area of the target that you intend to hit.
When you hit the target, there will be a very bright flash
with a very fast propagation velocity, which should be adequate
for the average 10X scope and photosensor.
No, I don't know where to find a terrorist supply store. Perhaps
you can make do with the PETN in blasting caps, or brew up a
batch of nitrogen tri-iodide, as any college freshman could do
in the fifties. Or try the powders from a Very pistol flare.
Yours for more creative solutions,
Bill Hawkins
WH
William H. Fite
Wed, Nov 3, 2010 9:55 PM
Nitrogen triiodide is safer, cheaper, and you can make it yourself. Put on
the target wet, hang it while still wet, let it dry...
On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 5:40 PM, Bill Hawkins bill@iaxs.net wrote:
Actually, some old dynamite that is leaking an oily liquid
is a sure-fire way to get a flash. Just don't drop it.
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Hawkins [mailto:bill@iaxs.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 4:39 PM
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Why .30 cal holes can't be seen at 800 yds...
Group,
I haven't been following this thread that won't die, but I've
contributed to others :^)
If the problem is that it is expensive to detect when a bullet
hits a target half a mile away, then have I got a solution for
you!
Visit any friendly neighborhood terrorist supply store and buy
a small quantity of PETN, or any other explosive that can be
detonated by the impact of a bullet. Smear a coating of this
over the area of the target that you intend to hit.
When you hit the target, there will be a very bright flash
with a very fast propagation velocity, which should be adequate
for the average 10X scope and photosensor.
No, I don't know where to find a terrorist supply store. Perhaps
you can make do with the PETN in blasting caps, or brew up a
batch of nitrogen tri-iodide, as any college freshman could do
in the fifties. Or try the powders from a Very pistol flare.
Yours for more creative solutions,
Bill Hawkins
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Nitrogen triiodide is safer, cheaper, and you can make it yourself. Put on
the target wet, hang it while still wet, let it dry...
On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 5:40 PM, Bill Hawkins <bill@iaxs.net> wrote:
> Actually, some old dynamite that is leaking an oily liquid
> is a sure-fire way to get a flash. Just don't drop it.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bill Hawkins [mailto:bill@iaxs.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 4:39 PM
> To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
> Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Why .30 cal holes can't be seen at 800 yds...
>
> Group,
>
> I haven't been following this thread that won't die, but I've
> contributed to others :^)
>
> If the problem is that it is expensive to detect when a bullet
> hits a target half a mile away, then have I got a solution for
> you!
>
> Visit any friendly neighborhood terrorist supply store and buy
> a small quantity of PETN, or any other explosive that can be
> detonated by the impact of a bullet. Smear a coating of this
> over the area of the target that you intend to hit.
>
> When you hit the target, there will be a very bright flash
> with a very fast propagation velocity, which should be adequate
> for the average 10X scope and photosensor.
>
> No, I don't know where to find a terrorist supply store. Perhaps
> you can make do with the PETN in blasting caps, or brew up a
> batch of nitrogen tri-iodide, as any college freshman could do
> in the fifties. Or try the powders from a Very pistol flare.
>
> Yours for more creative solutions,
>
> Bill Hawkins
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
BC
Bob Camp
Wed, Nov 3, 2010 10:02 PM
Hi
After each shot you need to haul a new batch down range. How many trips do you think you would make successfully ...
I know, this is going to tie it all back into the dreaded time of death thread ... yikes ... did I do that ....
Bob
On Nov 3, 2010, at 5:55 PM, William H. Fite wrote:
Nitrogen triiodide is safer, cheaper, and you can make it yourself. Put on
the target wet, hang it while still wet, let it dry...
On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 5:40 PM, Bill Hawkins bill@iaxs.net wrote:
Actually, some old dynamite that is leaking an oily liquid
is a sure-fire way to get a flash. Just don't drop it.
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Hawkins [mailto:bill@iaxs.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 4:39 PM
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Why .30 cal holes can't be seen at 800 yds...
Group,
I haven't been following this thread that won't die, but I've
contributed to others :^)
If the problem is that it is expensive to detect when a bullet
hits a target half a mile away, then have I got a solution for
you!
Visit any friendly neighborhood terrorist supply store and buy
a small quantity of PETN, or any other explosive that can be
detonated by the impact of a bullet. Smear a coating of this
over the area of the target that you intend to hit.
When you hit the target, there will be a very bright flash
with a very fast propagation velocity, which should be adequate
for the average 10X scope and photosensor.
No, I don't know where to find a terrorist supply store. Perhaps
you can make do with the PETN in blasting caps, or brew up a
batch of nitrogen tri-iodide, as any college freshman could do
in the fifties. Or try the powders from a Very pistol flare.
Yours for more creative solutions,
Bill Hawkins
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Hi
After each shot you need to haul a new batch down range. How many trips do you think you would make successfully ...
I know, this is going to tie it all back into the dreaded time of death thread ... yikes ... did I do that ....
Bob
On Nov 3, 2010, at 5:55 PM, William H. Fite wrote:
> Nitrogen triiodide is safer, cheaper, and you can make it yourself. Put on
> the target wet, hang it while still wet, let it dry...
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 5:40 PM, Bill Hawkins <bill@iaxs.net> wrote:
>
>> Actually, some old dynamite that is leaking an oily liquid
>> is a sure-fire way to get a flash. Just don't drop it.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Bill Hawkins [mailto:bill@iaxs.net]
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 4:39 PM
>> To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
>> Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Why .30 cal holes can't be seen at 800 yds...
>>
>> Group,
>>
>> I haven't been following this thread that won't die, but I've
>> contributed to others :^)
>>
>> If the problem is that it is expensive to detect when a bullet
>> hits a target half a mile away, then have I got a solution for
>> you!
>>
>> Visit any friendly neighborhood terrorist supply store and buy
>> a small quantity of PETN, or any other explosive that can be
>> detonated by the impact of a bullet. Smear a coating of this
>> over the area of the target that you intend to hit.
>>
>> When you hit the target, there will be a very bright flash
>> with a very fast propagation velocity, which should be adequate
>> for the average 10X scope and photosensor.
>>
>> No, I don't know where to find a terrorist supply store. Perhaps
>> you can make do with the PETN in blasting caps, or brew up a
>> batch of nitrogen tri-iodide, as any college freshman could do
>> in the fifties. Or try the powders from a Very pistol flare.
>>
>> Yours for more creative solutions,
>>
>> Bill Hawkins
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
JM
Joseph M Gwinn
Wed, Nov 3, 2010 10:02 PM
From:
"William H. Fite" omniryx@gmail.com
To:
Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Date:
11/03/2010 05:55 PM
Subject:
Re: [time-nuts] Why .30 cal holes can't be seen at 800 yds...
Sent by:
time-nuts-bounces@febo.com
Nitrogen triiodide is safer, cheaper, and you can make it
yourself. Put on
the target wet, hang it while still wet, let it dry...
But it's too sensitive - a fly landing on the dry crystals will do.
Joe Gwinn
On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 5:40 PM, Bill Hawkins bill@iaxs.net wrote:
Actually, some old dynamite that is leaking an oily liquid
is a sure-fire way to get a flash. Just don't drop it.
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Hawkins [mailto:bill@iaxs.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 4:39 PM
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Why .30 cal holes can't be seen at 800 yds...
Group,
I haven't been following this thread that won't die, but I've
contributed to others :^)
If the problem is that it is expensive to detect when a bullet
hits a target half a mile away, then have I got a solution for
you!
Visit any friendly neighborhood terrorist supply store and buy
a small quantity of PETN, or any other explosive that can be
detonated by the impact of a bullet. Smear a coating of this
over the area of the target that you intend to hit.
When you hit the target, there will be a very bright flash
with a very fast propagation velocity, which should be adequate
for the average 10X scope and photosensor.
No, I don't know where to find a terrorist supply store. Perhaps
you can make do with the PETN in blasting caps, or brew up a
batch of nitrogen tri-iodide, as any college freshman could do
in the fifties. Or try the powders from a Very pistol flare.
Yours for more creative solutions,
Bill Hawkins
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
time-nuts-bounces@febo.com wrote on 11/03/2010 05:55:16 PM:
> From:
>
> "William H. Fite" <omniryx@gmail.com>
>
> To:
>
> Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
<time-nuts@febo.com>
>
> Date:
>
> 11/03/2010 05:55 PM
>
> Subject:
>
> Re: [time-nuts] Why .30 cal holes can't be seen at 800 yds...
>
> Sent by:
>
> time-nuts-bounces@febo.com
>
> Nitrogen triiodide is safer, cheaper, and you can make it
> yourself. Put on
> the target wet, hang it while still wet, let it dry...
But it's too sensitive - a fly landing on the dry crystals will do.
Joe Gwinn
>
> On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 5:40 PM, Bill Hawkins <bill@iaxs.net> wrote:
>
> > Actually, some old dynamite that is leaking an oily liquid
> > is a sure-fire way to get a flash. Just don't drop it.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Bill Hawkins [mailto:bill@iaxs.net]
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 4:39 PM
> > To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
> > Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Why .30 cal holes can't be seen at 800 yds...
> >
> > Group,
> >
> > I haven't been following this thread that won't die, but I've
> > contributed to others :^)
> >
> > If the problem is that it is expensive to detect when a bullet
> > hits a target half a mile away, then have I got a solution for
> > you!
> >
> > Visit any friendly neighborhood terrorist supply store and buy
> > a small quantity of PETN, or any other explosive that can be
> > detonated by the impact of a bullet. Smear a coating of this
> > over the area of the target that you intend to hit.
> >
> > When you hit the target, there will be a very bright flash
> > with a very fast propagation velocity, which should be adequate
> > for the average 10X scope and photosensor.
> >
> > No, I don't know where to find a terrorist supply store. Perhaps
> > you can make do with the PETN in blasting caps, or brew up a
> > batch of nitrogen tri-iodide, as any college freshman could do
> > in the fifties. Or try the powders from a Very pistol flare.
> >
> > Yours for more creative solutions,
> >
> > Bill Hawkins
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/
> listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
BC
Bob Camp
Wed, Nov 3, 2010 10:11 PM
Hi
Roughly speaking, you know the distance to 0.1%. If the electronics are good to 0.01% they aren't going to contribute a significant amount of error. A fairly modest bare crystal will do quite nicely for the time base. No need to go any further. If you want to go time-nutty, put in a cell phone TCXO at both ends. That will easily get you sub 0.001%. In all cases a simple adjustment to "net" them together would be required every so often (yearly ...).
The only real issue left is how to sync the counter at the far end to the "start time". The RF link sounds like a good candidate for the job.
Bob
On Nov 3, 2010, at 2:10 PM, Michael Baker wrote:
Timenutters--
The question was asked-- Why can't a large aperture
high-resolution optic be used to locate bullet holes
in a target at 800 yards?
Consider this--: I often shoot at targets on the
600 yard berm at the Manatee Range (near Bradenton,
FL). Typically, by 11AM the atmospheric shimmering
mirage distortion makes even the 4" target hard to see.
By 1PM the use of any rifle scope magnification
greater than around 10X is an exercise in futility.
Often, the mirage is severe enough that even the
12" steel plates are hard to find through a 10X
scope.
.30" holes in a target...? No way.
Other questions that were asked: To what degree of
accuracy can the 800 yard distance be measured?
I have a laser range-finder which has been verified
to be within +/- 20 inches out to 1000 yards (the
U of F college of Engineering has a series of distance
marker posts set up for some research they were doing).
What kind of accuracy is expected for measuring bullet
velocity at the shooting bench and downrange? I have
a set of Oehler Research sky-screen chronographs that
use a 10MHz crystal for clocking the counting registers.
The projectiles start out at roughly between 2750 FPS and
3100 fps and end up downrange not slower than around
1800 fps. Assume sky-screen clocking ambiguities of
only a couple of clock pulses.
As an aside, projectiles whose velocity drops to
sub-sonic at 800 yds are of no interest to me.
The transition from super-sonic to sub-sonic generally
includes conditions that create inaccuracy.
I am VERY grateful for the feedback on this topic!
A couple of innovative suggestions from list members
have given me food for thought and I am going
to pursue looking into them.
My first chore is to investigate what kind of pulse
rise-times I get from a selection of inexpensive
ultrasonic sensors when a supersonic bullet passes
within a couple of feet from them. I have a Tek
2252 scope that I can place downrange to look at the
sensors with but storing the waveform for examination
may be a problem (no one seems to have volunteered to
stand downrange monitoring the scope screen!)
The Tek 2252 has a Centronix screen-capture printer
output but it is an Epson FX format and I have no
idea if any current printers at the local Office Mart
are compatible with the Epson FX data format. Anyone
on the TimeNuts list have any thoughts on this?
The 2252 scope also has a GPIB port but I don't know
if it outputs the printer data. I have a Sparkfun
GPIB/USB dongle but that may not be of any use if
there is no printer data on the GPIB port.
Mike Baker
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Hi
Roughly speaking, you know the distance to 0.1%. If the electronics are good to 0.01% they aren't going to contribute a significant amount of error. A fairly modest bare crystal will do quite nicely for the time base. No need to go any further. If you want to go time-nutty, put in a cell phone TCXO at both ends. That will easily get you sub 0.001%. In all cases a simple adjustment to "net" them together would be required every so often (yearly ...).
The only real issue left is how to sync the counter at the far end to the "start time". The RF link sounds like a good candidate for the job.
Bob
On Nov 3, 2010, at 2:10 PM, Michael Baker wrote:
> Timenutters--
> The question was asked-- Why can't a large aperture
> high-resolution optic be used to locate bullet holes
> in a target at 800 yards?
> Consider this--: I often shoot at targets on the
> 600 yard berm at the Manatee Range (near Bradenton,
> FL). Typically, by 11AM the atmospheric shimmering
> mirage distortion makes even the 4" target hard to see.
> By 1PM the use of any rifle scope magnification
> greater than around 10X is an exercise in futility.
> Often, the mirage is severe enough that even the
> 12" steel plates are hard to find through a 10X
> scope.
> .30" holes in a target...? No way.
> -----------------
> Other questions that were asked: To what degree of
> accuracy can the 800 yard distance be measured?
> I have a laser range-finder which has been verified
> to be within +/- 20 inches out to 1000 yards (the
> U of F college of Engineering has a series of distance
> marker posts set up for some research they were doing).
> What kind of accuracy is expected for measuring bullet
> velocity at the shooting bench and downrange? I have
> a set of Oehler Research sky-screen chronographs that
> use a 10MHz crystal for clocking the counting registers.
> The projectiles start out at roughly between 2750 FPS and
> 3100 fps and end up downrange not slower than around
> 1800 fps. Assume sky-screen clocking ambiguities of
> only a couple of clock pulses.
> As an aside, projectiles whose velocity drops to
> sub-sonic at 800 yds are of no interest to me.
> The transition from super-sonic to sub-sonic generally
> includes conditions that create inaccuracy.
> I am VERY grateful for the feedback on this topic!
> A couple of innovative suggestions from list members
> have given me food for thought and I am going
> to pursue looking into them.
> My first chore is to investigate what kind of pulse
> rise-times I get from a selection of inexpensive
> ultrasonic sensors when a supersonic bullet passes
> within a couple of feet from them. I have a Tek
> 2252 scope that I can place downrange to look at the
> sensors with but storing the waveform for examination
> may be a problem (no one seems to have volunteered to
> stand downrange monitoring the scope screen!)
> The Tek 2252 has a Centronix screen-capture printer
> output but it is an Epson FX format and I have no
> idea if any current printers at the local Office Mart
> are compatible with the Epson FX data format. Anyone
> on the TimeNuts list have any thoughts on this?
> The 2252 scope also has a GPIB port but I don't know
> if it outputs the printer data. I have a Sparkfun
> GPIB/USB dongle but that may not be of any use if
> there is no printer data on the GPIB port.
> Mike Baker
> -------------------
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
WH
William H. Fite
Wed, Nov 3, 2010 10:21 PM
Yep. Makes life interesting. [?]
On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 6:02 PM, Joseph M Gwinn gwinn@raytheon.com wrote:
From:
"William H. Fite" omniryx@gmail.com
To:
Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Date:
11/03/2010 05:55 PM
Subject:
Re: [time-nuts] Why .30 cal holes can't be seen at 800 yds...
Sent by:
time-nuts-bounces@febo.com
Nitrogen triiodide is safer, cheaper, and you can make it
yourself. Put on
the target wet, hang it while still wet, let it dry...
But it's too sensitive - a fly landing on the dry crystals will do.
Joe Gwinn
On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 5:40 PM, Bill Hawkins bill@iaxs.net wrote:
Actually, some old dynamite that is leaking an oily liquid
is a sure-fire way to get a flash. Just don't drop it.
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Hawkins [mailto:bill@iaxs.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 4:39 PM
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Why .30 cal holes can't be seen at 800 yds...
Group,
I haven't been following this thread that won't die, but I've
contributed to others :^)
If the problem is that it is expensive to detect when a bullet
hits a target half a mile away, then have I got a solution for
you!
Visit any friendly neighborhood terrorist supply store and buy
a small quantity of PETN, or any other explosive that can be
detonated by the impact of a bullet. Smear a coating of this
over the area of the target that you intend to hit.
When you hit the target, there will be a very bright flash
with a very fast propagation velocity, which should be adequate
for the average 10X scope and photosensor.
No, I don't know where to find a terrorist supply store. Perhaps
you can make do with the PETN in blasting caps, or brew up a
batch of nitrogen tri-iodide, as any college freshman could do
in the fifties. Or try the powders from a Very pistol flare.
Yours for more creative solutions,
Bill Hawkins
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Yep. Makes life interesting. [?]
On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 6:02 PM, Joseph M Gwinn <gwinn@raytheon.com> wrote:
> time-nuts-bounces@febo.com wrote on 11/03/2010 05:55:16 PM:
>
> > From:
> >
> > "William H. Fite" <omniryx@gmail.com>
> >
> > To:
> >
> > Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> <time-nuts@febo.com>
> >
> > Date:
> >
> > 11/03/2010 05:55 PM
> >
> > Subject:
> >
> > Re: [time-nuts] Why .30 cal holes can't be seen at 800 yds...
> >
> > Sent by:
> >
> > time-nuts-bounces@febo.com
> >
> > Nitrogen triiodide is safer, cheaper, and you can make it
> > yourself. Put on
> > the target wet, hang it while still wet, let it dry...
>
> But it's too sensitive - a fly landing on the dry crystals will do.
>
> Joe Gwinn
>
>
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 5:40 PM, Bill Hawkins <bill@iaxs.net> wrote:
> >
> > > Actually, some old dynamite that is leaking an oily liquid
> > > is a sure-fire way to get a flash. Just don't drop it.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Bill Hawkins [mailto:bill@iaxs.net]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 4:39 PM
> > > To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
> > > Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Why .30 cal holes can't be seen at 800 yds...
> > >
> > > Group,
> > >
> > > I haven't been following this thread that won't die, but I've
> > > contributed to others :^)
> > >
> > > If the problem is that it is expensive to detect when a bullet
> > > hits a target half a mile away, then have I got a solution for
> > > you!
> > >
> > > Visit any friendly neighborhood terrorist supply store and buy
> > > a small quantity of PETN, or any other explosive that can be
> > > detonated by the impact of a bullet. Smear a coating of this
> > > over the area of the target that you intend to hit.
> > >
> > > When you hit the target, there will be a very bright flash
> > > with a very fast propagation velocity, which should be adequate
> > > for the average 10X scope and photosensor.
> > >
> > > No, I don't know where to find a terrorist supply store. Perhaps
> > > you can make do with the PETN in blasting caps, or brew up a
> > > batch of nitrogen tri-iodide, as any college freshman could do
> > > in the fifties. Or try the powders from a Very pistol flare.
> > >
> > > Yours for more creative solutions,
> > >
> > > Bill Hawkins
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > > To unsubscribe, go to
> > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > > and follow the instructions there.
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/
> > listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
